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I’m sorry if this is a stupid question, but what is the best way to refuse to do this?
Say you’re in xyz situation and a cop demands your phone. You say no. They get angry, maybe make some threats (whether true or not), etc.
What is the best way to say no, you aren’t comfortable, come back with a warrant, without pissing them off royally in such a way that things end up worse for you?
in such a way that things end up worse for you?
IANAL. This is what they want you to think, “just do this and it’ll be better for you”. It might be a short term hassle waiting for the drug dog, or being arrested while they conduct their investigation. But long term it’s the court that matters. And the court will throw out anything obtained illegally or the cops do illegally.
Cops are not there to help you, they just want to find someone to pin a crime on. The only one that will help you is your lawyer. Stfu. Don’t talk to the police.
This. You have rights, but the police will lie, cheat, and steal their way into getting whatever they want, especially when what they want is for you to waive your rights.
When stopped by the police (in America), you say “I invoke my fifth amendment right to not answer questions and I don’t consent to any searches and seizures. Am I being detained or am I free to go?” That question starts a clock for what is a reasonable amount of time to detain you for their investigation because you’ve made it clear that you’d like to leave as soon as you’re legally allowed to.
As for any kind of force, just stay silent and unthreatening. They’re gonna do what they’re gonna do, and anything you do can be used as rationalization for escalation, which they really seem to fucking love. Be polite when you do choose to speak. Obey lawful commands and let them arrest you if that’s what they’re gonna do. You don’t fight armed thugs in the street, you fight them in court. File complaints and sue when they violate your rights and cause undue harm. Swinging at them or shouting in their face is how you get shot. Let their ego win the moment and then administratively destroy their career and life later on.
I’m also not a lawyer, but this is what any half decent lawyer would tell you to do. Just shut the fuck up (but invoke your right to shut the fuck up or your silence can actually be used against you) and be as passive as possible so your lawyer has a slam dunk case getting your charges dropped and/or suing the everloving fuck out of them, hopefully nullifying their qualified immunity in the process. Nothing you do or say to the police can help you, but it sure as shit will be used against you. Even things you think are innocuous can corroborate that you’re who they’re looking for, so just shut the fuck up.
But sir, this doesn’t sound like protect and serve at all!
Courts have ruled that the police have absolutely no duty to protect and serve you. That shit is a slogan. The reality is that they exist to protect capital and serve capitalists. Cops are class traitors, punishing anybody who steals or threatens value of capital. Some cops do some good, but that isn’t and never was the real intent.
I have seen a video of police playing basketball with the community, problem solved?
I’m 99% sure that you’re kidding, but a shitload of people actually think like that. Decades of copaganda in TV and movies weren’t for nothing, and now social media is full of it. The 80s was saturated with loose cannon cops who get results and it convinced people that sometimes it’s okay to violate rights. Now it’s cops doing tiktok dances or flipping water bottles to convince people that hey, they’re regular people just like me, and well, golly gee, I’m not a fascist so how can I possibly believe that they’re fascists?
Have one involuntary interaction with a cop and your view will change. The cops primarily target brown and/or poor people, so it’s no wonder that the vast majority of thin blue line dipshits are financially comfortable honkies who’ve never had the cops target them.
Sidenote: I’ve always chuckled at the people who have both a thin blue line bumper sticker and Gadsden flag bumper stick/license plate. Basically a billboard that says “tread on those ones, officers” but they’re always the same people claiming “I don’t have a racist bone in my body!” Okay, but only because bones can’t be racist; it’s your brain that’s racist.
i absolutely am. I’m also just jaded at this point and don’t have the patience to put into words what you said. You’ve been hitting the nail on the head this whole thread.
Humans are top dog because of two things, sweat and communication.
We’re nothing without communicating, and you’re doing a killer job at communicating these issues. Keep being you, homie.
Important addition: don’t just shut the fuck up.
First, in some jurisdictions, failure to identify is an arrestable offense. Full name, date of birth, relevant cards/papers.
Second, if you need to reach for something, say something so they don’t think you’re about to pull a weapon on them. Officer safety is always a concern in the land of handing out guns like candy.
Third, explicitly state that you are exercising your fifth amendment rights. Otherwise you might run into an “I want a lawyer, dawg” situation.
Thank you!
what is the best way to refuse to do this?
try to be as white as possible.
They definitely slam white people’s heads into the ground for telling them no, too.
but black people are free practice targets to them
Not always.
If you’re not white, it is ALWAYS.
“what’s a phone?”
“I don’t know why my fingerprint isn’t working” (biometrics are disabled)
“I don’t remember my passcode” (it’s a pattern input field)
“The guy at the phone place changed it for me”
“It’s never really worked right.”
“There’s no Google on it tho.” (What does this even mean?)
“Who do you need to call anyway?”
“Can’t you just use your own phone?”
Just act like the dumbest creature on earth.
And if you’re Black - get shot for “talking back”
input the wrong password like 5 times to lock up the phone then say its muscle memory and you don’t remember the password numbers
iPhone tip to require password to open:
- Hit lock five times
or
- Hold lock & at least one volume button
(Edit: ahh, this tip’s been given several times now, only new info is that either volume down or volume up or both will work)
This is how you go to prison.
you can lie to cops but not feds
It depends a lot on your location on the planet.
And skin color
Oh man that was fucking hilarious! Thanks for making my night!
Mobile youtube links, gross
Sounds like someone could use some more shut the fuck up Friday in their life 😘
Depends on local laws, but if the cops ability to seize your property without warrant isn’t protected by local laws:
Ask if they have a warrant and if they don’t then take your phone oout and power it down, then put it back in your pocket and tell them they can direct complaints to your lawyer because you’re not handing over any devices.
If they seize it without a warrant then you can sue the department, although if they have reasonable suspicion then you won’t have much luck.
In the states, they’ll just accuse the phone of committing a crime and take it anyways
In 2015 they took a black man’s car and he took them for 1.25 Million.
Disable biometrics
Android: look up “lockdown mode”
iOS: hold volume down + power, or press power 5 times fast.
Better: restart the phone. This puts it into the safest state it has, as it has not yet been initially unlocked and will require a non-bio auth. Stronger security, may/should hold if they attempt to attack/hack/compromise it, if it comes to that. Takes like 3 seconds. Do it, not the equal-time-worse-security version of just disabling bio.
Additionally, running GrapheneOS you can set up a duress pin to wipe the phone profiles if things were to escalate.
Being smart, set up the main profile a bit to look real, but have no actual information. That way it’s not obvious tha its been wiped.
Being cheeky, set the duress pin to be something simple like your birthday. So if you are detained/arrested and they try to get into your phone they are the ones to wipe it for you.
I imagine something like “I do not consent to a search nor seizure of any of my property. May I reach into my pocket so I may place my phone in plain view? If my property is going to be seized even against my will, I still want to ensure everyone’s safety.”
Then repeat the no consent line as you place your phone on your dashboard or whatever.
I imagine this means your lawyer will have body cam footage of the double nonconsent and the judge will see you were willing to comply even with potentially unlawful orders so the justice system could sort it out in court instead of someone trying to fight it out on the street.
Do you have a warrant? Then sorry officer I will not hand it over per my fifth amendment right.
From there just say you’re not saying anything else without a lawyer and then just keep demanding a lawyer.
Yes. The cop will get pissed off. But better him mad then you spending years trying to get out of a bogus charge because of some bullshit they found on your phone. Better to be annoying and demand to speak to a lawyer.
If you absolutely have to hand over your phone, turn it off completely, like hold the power button and then tap the off icon. That will dump any keys out of RAM, which is why it always requires the full password to unlock when you turn it back on. Both in terms of how your phone works and the leaks we’ve seen, the cracking tools the police have are overall significantly less likely to be successful when used on a phone that’s been turned off and not unlocked since.
Also, IIRC iphones have a feature where they will dump at least some of the system keys from RAM if you push the lock button five times. I’d still trust fully off more but that’s easier to do covertly.
Five times wanted to set off an emergency service call and sound the alarm 🚨 YMMV (Pixel 7)
Removed by mod
Sounds like it’s time for the deniably encrypted phone.
Also on Android press the power button and volume up button simultaneously, and then press lockdown.
DO NOT GIVE THEM YOUR PHONE
DO NOT TALK TO POLICE
Your ONLY responses should be to identify yourself, and “I will not make any statements without my lawyer present.”
Serious question, what gets you into these situations that you need to safeguard your belongings so hard? I’m asking to understand not to make a shit post thread.
Edit: 13 hours later…not a single one of you?
Pro tip, if you suspect the police are going to take your phone, turn it off. As far as I am aware, finger print and face id do not work on initial startup and they can’t compel you to enter your pin without a warrant.
Better yet: don’t use biometrics. My phone has face recognition for unlocking, but I better stick to a PIN/PASSWORD.
Or better yet just don’t use a phone at all! Can’t make you unlock what you don’t have!
Double check this in the state or country you’re in. I recall something from a few years ago where the police could force you to give a swipe pattern and maybe pin since these items are not covered in the same way that a password is.
Maybe in some countries but in a western one they aren’t getting a pattern or passcode unless you verbally give it to them. We do know though that there is some level of capability to crack phones though.
Indent to find an article to back up what I remember and in 2020, a woman was held in contempt of court and jailed for refusing to provide a passcode. The case was later overturned.
But they didn’t get the code. That’s the quest they can do, hold you in contempt of court. Which in the US is illegal under the 5th amendment.
How is a pin not a passcode?
Just hold Side button and one of the volume buttons to deactivate biometrics
If you have an iPhone, holding down either volume button and the side button will bring out the Medical ID, slide to power off, Emergency SOS screen. This will also disable FaceID. Password will be required to access the phone now.
All this makes it sound like police are giving you a bunch of time to respond and addressing you politely.
I mean, I agree on the principle. Don’t just hand your phone over to… anyone, really. But the game becomes very different when a guy with a gun is hassling you over it.
This is why I set up tasker to lockdown my phone under certain conditions, such as: getting disconnected from Bluetooth (like when my phone is separated from me and my watch, my headphones, or the car), getting disconnected from WiFi (like when it’s taken from where it’s supposed to be), getting a slight jolt from the accelerometer (like getting thrown to the ground or even just a swift tap). My phone may get locked down a bunch during day to day stuff, but at least I know it will lockdown automatically when it matters.
Is article mixing things or am I missing something?
You don’t need to hand over your phone to present a digital ID. At least in my country the digital ID just creates a qr that the cop can scan to verify. There is no reason to hand over anything on the whole process.
Does your phone need to be unlocked to show that qr code?
Of course. But if a police officer were to remove your phone by force, first it would be illegal without a warrant so it would almost made you a favour as all evidence in your phone would be invalid in court.
Then if they just want to remove by force, with or without warrant, they can just take it from your pocket. Even locked if they want the info in your phone they are probably getting it. They would have access to some of the best forensics teams and equipment.
Following the same logic, should we never have an unlocked phone near a police officer? I don’t know about that.
And if you are just that paranoid I would probably be easy to just have a second profile on your phone just for the ID. And you are the same as if having the phone locked as password is needed for changing profiles.
Even locked if they want the info in your phone they are probably getting it. They would have access to some of the best forensics teams and equipment.
I think some of the concern is when cops will use force illegally and then lie about it, so they wouldn’t necessarily have access to forensics.
Like taking your phone and go through your WhatsApp messages?
If that’s a concern you could set up a password to access any sensible app or chat within that app.
I think that is a more sensible approach. As if you are targeted by any reason an undercover cop could get a hold on your unlocked phone by many different ways.
But if a police officer were to remove your phone by force, first it would be illegal without a warrant so it would almost made you a favour as all evidence in your phone would be invalid in court.
Even if what they find on your phone isn’t valid in court, it can still lead them to other things that are valid. For instance, a picture taken at a specific place with a timestamp. That picture may not be admissible, but if they find CCTV footage of you at that time and place, you’re screwed.
Cops can and will overreach their powers, and they’ll probably get away with it.
Even locked if they want the info in your phone they are probably getting it. They would have access to some of the best forensics teams and equipment.
Sure, but it’s a lot harder for them if your phone is encrypted and shut off before you encounter them.
Following the same logic, should we never have an unlocked phone near a police officer? I don’t know about that.
You really shouldn’t. Cops are never on your side.
You really shouldn’t. Cops are never on your side.
I mean never is a strong word here. People are saved by cops every day. At least in my country. Just looking today news: women was arrested after being violent towards doctors in La Palma. Pretty sure doctors though cops were on their side.
You have to be sure to defend your citizen rights and prosecuted rights (if it even become to that). But that does not conflict to call the cops if you need to and if you are being victim of a crime they’ll most likely help you. Once again, that’s how it is where I live.
I will admit I’m making some strong, harsh statements. But I think that’s a pretty natural result of living in the U.S., a country who’s cops operate closer to a gang than Rescue Heroes. They kill minorities with virtual immunity. They racially profile people. The list goes on.
Somebody who intentionally joins a group like that does not have good intentions, or is ok with their buddies not having good intentions, or gets kicked out quickly for tattling on their fellow cops. So yeah, cops are never on your side, at least not here.
In the US, cops are legally allowed to just ignore you.
There was a case in Colorado I believe where an estranged husband kidnapped his kids from their mom. The mom went to the police but they kept brushing her off. After while the dad showed up to the station with a gun, promptly got killed, and then the kids were discovered dead in his car.
It went to the courts, and courts came back with “yeah they don’t HAVE to help you.” Of course this is overly simplified, but there’s case law in at least part of the country now that allows cops to ignore anyone at their discretion because they’re on dinner break or just not feeling it.
Also in the US, cops can tear your car up on a minor traffic stop because they “smelled” something. If they search your vehicle for whatever reason, they can decide they want to throw all you stuff out on the road, cut open your upholstery, take door panels off, etc. And if they don’t find anything? “Have a good day sir, get your shit off the road it’s a public safety hazard.” Then drive off leaving you to pick up their mess. And yes it has happened, and no not just once.
There was a case in New York where a guy was going around stabbing people. Cops posted up looking for him of course. Guy on the subway got stabbed nearly to death, a bystander tried to help the victim and took the criminal off-guard. Cops came in from the operators cab and subdued the criminal. They were watching the whole thing from the operators window and didn’t help the victim until they saw an opening created by the bystander. Literally watching a guy on his way to getting stabbed to death and only decided to intervene when they felt like it.
Also the Uvalde school shooting. Just hanging out in hallways while kids get shot, waiting for the danger to clear.
Also George Floyd but at least some amount of justice has been served there. But I’m highly skeptical it would have came to that if the case wasn’t as well-known as it was. Shit happens all the time. They have a term they love to bust out for minorities who are acting out of line. “Excited Delirium”: look it up.
I could go on, but I think you get the idea. They “can” help, but totally not a requirement.
Reminder: If you are in a situation where you’re presenting a digital ID to a digital ID reader, do not unlock your phone first. Tap your locked phone on the ID reader, then authenticate the document share.
Deleted
For Android:
- Open Settings
- Search for “Lockdown”
- Select “Show Lockdown option” from the results, or the result that most resembles that.
- Enter your pin if required.
- Tap the associated slider to enable Show lockdown option
Now when you hold your power button, you get a “lockdown” option that disables biometrics and forces you to enter your passcode for the next unlock.
Particularly useful for me, as I have my phone set up to always be unlocked if my watch is close enough (maybe stupid of me), but I can force lock it at any time.
Or you could just hit restart on the phone and at least on android it asks for the code first before enabling finger print or face ID.
That’s pretty much how it works on iOS too as far as I can tell. Nothing boots up until you enter your pin
On iOS 18 there is a power button in the top right of control center (you have to hold it)
They only need to be 500 miles near you, if they pay for the good juicy 2G exploits 😉
Duh.
Seems like the cops should now be worried about civilian phones exploding and now might consider shooting anyone that tries to hand them a phone /s
*especially if you’ve got nothing to hide.
does this apply to other countries
You have to suspect, I fear. At least, those exploiting tools are very expensive. So there is this little roadblock. On the other hand, a lot of this money goes to an Isreal based company…
What if the country did not support israel and does not recognize it
They maybe still buy NSO group software 🤷🏻
No shit
I’m a cop and I can tell you that, at least in my country, you’d have no reason to not unlock your phone if you haven’t done anything.
I can understand that in some countries cops can be seen as criminals (and are behaving like criminals), but I don’t think a generality should be made. Just like a generality shouldn’t be made about people from an origin all doing the same bad thing.
Also don’t take advices from what you see on Lemmy as every user comes from a different country with different laws.
In my country, we can take your phone but we aren’t allowed to unlock it without your consent or without a prosecutor saying so.
Man, fuck that.
It’s none of your business what’s on our phones, period.
You want access? Go through due process.
The very fact that you led off with “you’re fine if you have nothing to hide” makes you the problem, you personally, not anyone else around you, you.
Doesn’t matter what country you’re in at all. Doesn’t even matter what the law says in this case, because crappy laws exist.
That kind of thinking is exactly why people don’t trust cops.
I can understand that in some countries cops can be seen as criminals (and are behaving like criminals), but I don’t think a generality should be made. Just like a generality shouldn’t be made about people from an origin all doing the same bad thing.
ACAB, and you don’t get to compare your chosen profession to where people were born or the colour of their skin, nor try to claim victim points by pretending you are systemically oppressed and discriminated against in the same way we are (though your trying to does go to strengthen my first point).
Fuck you, pig.
Would it be fair to summarize your point as “if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear”?
Cops are garbage
Says the guy insulting a stranger solely based on their profession
Yes because their profession is garbage.
🐽🐽🐽🐽🐽🐽🐽🐽🐽🐽🐽
Fuck you
I don’t know why your getting downvoted and have replies with ACAB…
Keep in mind I come at this from an American perspective.
I do have to disagree with the first paragraph. You do not need to access to or to search my phone to perform your job. If the phone becomes part of a criminal investigation then ideally a warrant would be put out by a judge and a Computer Forensics team would take it from there.
At least in the USA, the bad perception of cops is not just because of their apparent lack of accountability and ability to get away with murder, but also how expansive the scope of their duties are. So much authority intrusted in one person clearly seems to go to their heads more often than not here.
I understand in many European countries the scope of a cops duties is much more restricted. I know Britian doesn’t even provide their law enforcement with firearms.
“It’s rude to not let me invade your privacy. If you have nothing to hide just let me see your phone!” Fuck off, pig
I’m going to preface this by saying the whole Americanised ACAB stuff is silly. Not everywhere has a shitty, militarised police force like theirs. Where I am, my experience with the police has been pretty positive, even with me being an immigrant with darker skin.
But man, no.
If police want your data, they can ask you politely, and if you say no, then that should be it. End of discussion. People have the right to privacy.
Maybe the officer wouldn’t do anything nefarious. But then again, maybe they will. You have no way of knowing what type of person that officer is. Even good police forces have plenty of shitty employees, so police powers should be limited to avoid them just doing whatever they want.
If there’s a genuine reason to have your data, say you’re implicated in some criminal investigation, then they can go through the proper channels and get a warrant.
Police absolutely should not have the power to just do whatever they like. If you let them, have that, it leads to shitty police forces like they have in the US and elsewhere.
I totally agree with you and that’s what we have in my country.
At least someone on Lemmy is not jumping on the ACAB stuff train.
People are the first one to criticize us (sometimes with good reasons) but they are the first one to call us when they are in deep shit.
