Forces had no direct confrontation with Hamas terrorists who killed hostages; ‘The IDF and security forces are doing everything possible to bring all hostages home as quickly as possible. This news shakes us all,’ says army spokesperson Hagari
Israeli forces discovered the bodies of six hostages in a 65-foot-deep tunnel in Rafah, approximately a kilometer from where hostage Farhan Alkadi was recently freed. The IDF had no precise intelligence on the hostages’ location in recent months but knew there were captives in the sector, leading to a gradual and cautious operation in Rafah since the ground offensive began.
So says the IDF, anyway. I’ll believe it when someone independent confirms it.
It’s no mental stretch to believe idf would kill their own to further the genocide agenda.
After all, if the hostages are already dead no need for a ceasefire.
I don’t think they intentionally would, but indiscriminate bombing has the tendency to create unintentional deaths for everyone involved.
What the actual fuck are you talking about. Hamas murders people all the fucking time, posting videos of their brutal murders etc. proudly online. IDF has no interest in killing hostages, it does not help them, it can only backfire.
Hasbara
It’s baffling that you’re being downvoted for this.
Lemmy in a nutshell. Mostly a very specific group of people.
These people are all kinds of dumb fucking idiots living in a fairy tale where Hamas are the poor oppressed good guys
I’m telling you that if, say, Canada came and occupied my home town, forced everyone out, and killed my family, that I’d definitely be an anti Canadian terrorist.
Addition: How is this being downvoted. Violence begets terrorists. Have we learned nothing from historical US intervention in the middle east? This is Israel’s “War on Terror” and its going to end the same way. Tons of dead brown people and many many more terrorists.
Hey Buddy, there’d no need to go there, pal. We’re not going to do that unless there’s a Tim’s in your town friend.
PS, please don’t read up about our history in WWI, we’re just the funny folks with goofy red uniforms and horses…
PPS, please don’t read up about the actual RCMP.
That isn’t Hamas though. Their leadership lives it up in Bahrain I think and has a dictatorship over Gaza. Before the pandemic there was a protest by the Palestinians and it was brutally oppressed. Hamas hasn’t held elections in a long time.
Don’t confuse Palestinian freedom fighters and civilians seeking revenge with Hamas.
I’m saying when you have no outlet for justice, you will side with whatever is the next best option. It’s what all these harm reductionists say here in the states about voting.
You side with the best of two options, and hamas, even if just slightly, is better for Palestinians than Israel.
I’d be a lot easier to just objectively say “fuck Hamas”, if Israel wasn’t being their #1 recruitment officer by making life in Palestine and the West Bank hell.
Oh I don’t disagree there. I agree with pretty much everything you’ve said here actually. I was just saying that Hamas isn’t some pure hearted rebellion group. But I do think they are the lesser evil.
What if you did it first for like a thousand years and wanted to do it again?
Walking around in your home town on top of artifacts, the earliest recorded human history of the region, written in the language of the people you’re saying pushed you out. Sounds delusional to say the land was yours first. Just dig a hole and look for yourself. Hamas knows this, with all their digging.
Land provenance isn’t a good argument for Gaza. The historical record of who was there first is irrefutable
Modern Ashkenazi Jews are not ancient Israelis.
They looked a lot more like the Palestinians. IMO religion as a race is stupid anyways
What I’m saying is that the Palestinians were actively displaced, in recent history. I’m not arguing who has right to land, just that up and deciding a handful of decades ago that people need to move is not the right call.
Maybe not the right call but it was the call and now that’s what we’ve got. Saying it’s not the right call is a useless platitude, same as saying Palestinians were there first. Israel is there. Israel a flawed democracy, which is infinitely better than the far right, theocratic dictatorships, including Gaza, which surround it, and for that reason alone is worth the western defense.
says army spokesperson Hagari
99% chance that it’s either a complete fabrication or a distortion of the truth when an IDF spokesperson is the ONLY source. Let’s see if anyone even remotely reliable confirms the story.
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“Hostages found bludgeoned to death with rubble in tunnel that was liberated by IDF bombs.”
with how happy the IDF has been with killing the hostage themselves so far, I have a hard time believing it. Could it have happened? Sure. Did it? Since the IDF says it did, it’s much more likely that it didn’t.
Israeli spokesperson had this to say “When we forced people to live in slums and ghetto’s we thought they would act like our ancestors, and we could just slaughter them. I guess that’s not how genocide always works. But we with will keep trying no matter how many innocent children die! Because when the victims stands up for themselves, we lose, and the Zionism cult doesn’t allow for that.”
The hostages seem like the only bargaining chip they have (not that it’s much of a bargaining chip), so I’m surprised they’re doing it. Maybe they’ve decided that it isn’t worth it.
Probably frustration and despair. If your bargaining chip can’t get you a bargain, all they’re worth is ‘revenge’ against your opponent.
What a fucked situation.
Thinking on it, it was probably also costing them what are now valuable resources to keep them alive. When it’s near impossible to get in and out of Gaza, food, medicine, etc. are worth their weight in gold.
So instead of letting them free they murder them?
Why would they let them free when they consider them the enemy?
If you don’t have the resources to provide for your POWs, the correct solution is parole, not execution.
How would you propose safely paroling them? There’s already examples of released hostages then being killed by the IDF.
Any type of parole has to be at least marginally less dangerous for the hostage than execution.
If they die either way, no it isn’t.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Alon_Shamriz,_Yotam_Haim,_and_Samer_Talalka
On 15 December 2023, Israel Defense Forces (IDF) soldiers operating in Shuja’iyya, Gaza as part of the Israeli invasion of the Gaza Strip killed three Israeli hostages taken during the 2023 Hamas-led attack on Israel. The hostages, who were trying to be rescued, were visibly unarmed and shirtless and waving a makeshift white flag when they were killed.
Sounds equally dangerous to me.
Execution has a kill rate of 100%.
Even if paroling is stupidly risky, the ods of death are still <100%.
It would also be seen positively by everyone and one propaganda piece less for Israel to use.
Let’s argue with reason and not pretend that because it has happened before it will happen every single time. Cock-ups happen everywhere.
I put as much faith in this as I do the hospital tunnel story.
Anything the IDF says is to be treated as bunk without at least 2 corroborating sources. The IDF lies like they breathe, so I’m more willing to assume they killed the hostages to make Hamas look bad than anything they actually say.
It’s entirely possible this is total nonsense, but I could also see them realizing that keeping them alive was an exercise in futility and, as I suggested in another comment, a waste of precious resources like food.
Oh, don’t get me wrong, it could maybe possibly be true. We’re just getting it from a serial liar, so the message is untrustworthy on its face.
I’ll be extremely saddened if I’m wrong here, because those people didn’t deserve this. But given Israel’s long history of blatant lies in the name of PR against anything Palestinian, I’m not going to believe it until a credible source backs up their statement.
Israeli history isn’t even a necessary consideration. The messaging of any warfighting party should always be taken with appropriate caution.
If someone is willing to wage war to achieve their goals, some propaganda efforts are certainly not out of the question. Factuality cannot really be confirmed until after the war is over, and the area becomes safe for neutral parties to visit. Active warzones are just not fountains of factual and verifiable reporting though.
Hamas is trying to keep as many alive as they can.
But (a) 2000 pound bunker busters don’t discriminate between Palestinians and Israelis and (b) if the IDF comes too close to the hostages, their guards have to decide whether to let them go alive or to kill them.
In the case of the Druze guy, I can definitely see Hamas choosing not to kill him. But in cases of Israelis who also served in the IDF, the rational choice is to kill them instead of giving the IDF a propaganda win.
And finally, sometimes the IDF probably accidentally kills them and tries to blame Hamas if they can get away with it.
But in cases of Israelis who also served in the IDF, the rational choice is to kill them instead of giving the IDF a propaganda win.
This is a war crime. You can’t execute POWs just because the enemy is getting close to the POW camp.
They aren’t combatants or PoW, taking them hostage was a human rights violation from the beginning.
But Israel can’t really expect Hamas to follow Geneva conventions when they themselves violate it a hundreds times as often.
Depending on how recently they were executed, it makes perfect sense. As the one holding hostages, you want to set the precedent that the only way to get them out alive is via negotiation.
They died recently enough for the bodies to be quickly identifiable. No DNA tests necessary or anything apparently.
Is Hamas even that disciplined to act as a unified front? Management or soldiers on the site could’ve decided themselves to take a revenge on hostages. Especially if they knew they are cornered and there were no use of keeping them alive if they are deadmen too.
Sounds like they were retreating from the area, and didn’t want to bring the hostages with them. In this case, executing the hostages makes strategic sense, as it reinforces the threat that you are willing to do so.
It would be smarter for them to bring the hostages with them to keep their bargaining chips. You may be right but I’m putting my money on the IDF killing them with bombs and blaming Hamas until another restorer says something. Unfortunately, the IDF keeps killing all the journalists for some reason…
They also have dead Palestinian kids that they’ve intentionally placed in harms way, entire cities they use as human shields, you know, for sympathy.
“Martyrdom” they call it.
When the IDF rescued the only 4 hostages they did, they killed 300+ mostly women and kids including some more of their own hostages.
So that’s why probably it was a no brainer for Hamas to indeed just execute them as soon as they figured they would be found, to save the lives of hundrends of innocents
Why would the IDF’s response be weaker if the hostages are dead?
We need clear good guys and bad guys, so if the IDF is the bad guys (which they certainly are) well that means Hamas must be the good guys (which they certainly are not) and thus this has to be some noble effort.
No, they killed the hostages and left. If they tried to hold up, and maybe go for a prisoner swap, there’d be more people at risk.
Not claiming Hamas is good but if there’s no resistance, they don’t kill as many people while finding the bodies.
They’re not trying to protect the ‘innocent’, they didn’t want the IDF gunning them down. When they saw the news about the IDF laying waste to everyone, they said “Fuck that,” killed the hostages and left.
Warfighting 101, that’s why you don’t go scorched earth for your hostages. If you make it a smart move to just kill them, they’ll just get killed…
Granted if you’re not looking for the hostages but looking to make your opponent look more inhuman, well, in that case great idea.
There ain’t no good guy, there ain’t no bad guy
There’s only you and me and we just disagree
Ooh-hoo-hoo, oh-oh-hoDave Mason
French people committed all sorts of terrorist acts against the nazis in the early days of WWII, were those french terrorists not the good guys in the conflict? If so, why wouldnt Hamas also be the good guys?
Not necessarily. Crimes against the innocent are pretty fucking hard to justify.
The terror attacks against jews in the levant started in the 1850s, as a protest against the tanzimat reforms which granted jews equal rights in the ottoman empire. Before the tanzimat reforms jews were legally second class citizens.
Ever hear the saying “Equality feels like oppression to the privileged?” The founding father and first president of palestine, Raj Amin Al-Husani, the person who signed the palestinian declaration of independence and the declaration of war against israel in 1948, was a member of the richest land owning family in plaestine and next in line to inherit the throne of jersulem, which was given to his family as a wedding gift by the profit Muhammid when the family’s head married the profit Muhammid’s daughter Fatima after the islamic conquest of jersulem.
“Raj” is a title. It means “prince”.
The tanzimat reforms were a direct result of the patriarch of the Al-Husani clan getting offended and killing a group of christian pilgrims for displaying non-islamic holy symbols in public in jerusalem, which angered the Pope so much he threatened the ottomens with a trade embargo from christian nations unless equal rights were granted to people of other faiths.
so your solution to save the hostages and to end the bloodshed is for the IDF to kill and bomb more? I don’t get your question
I don’t know what the best solution is, or even understand your logic… that’s why I’m asking.
There is one obvious solution. You ready for it? Israel should just become a normal country. No more aparthied, no more 99:1% imprisonment ratio for palestinians without trails, no more raping prisoners to death, no more 6 tons dumb bombing the most densly populated area with average age of 19 (btw the average age is 19 there for many reasons including the land\air\sea besieging, and polluted drinking water, and regularly air striking civilians there aka “mowing the lawn”), no more burning 300+ refugees to death because a “terrorist was hiding there”, no more war crimes (I should repeat the last one a thousand times), no more killing people waving flags, no more killing a 6 yr old next to her family and watching her starve to death for a week while killing anyone and bombing any ambulance that tried to come close to help, no more illegal settlements… bro you get the idea… just things all other countries in the world do because right now Israel is a colonizing genocidal aparthied. and it can either stay the indoctronated country that continues to commit unspeakable crimes against humanity by exercising more killing and colonizing and genocide and oppression with US tax money and support of Western values and weapons, Ooooooor it can intiate to treat and give palestinians their rights and lands and live in peace without the killing and nazification and bombing and besieging and illegal colonizing and all.
Sure, that’s reasonable. But I’m trying to understand Hamas’ logic for these executions; they can’t just make Israel act normal all of a sudden.
No need to go in after hostages that aren’t there
I would have thought returning them would be the no brainer.
I have a question, since Israel has mandatory military service, aren’t these hostages technically non-combatants?
Also when Israel uses the logic that everyone in palestine could be Hamas therefore they must be firm in their actions.
Doesn’t the opposite logic also apply?
Like technically every israeli would be either going to be a part of IDF or has been in the past or currently in IDF.
Right? What am i missing in this?
You are right. But it is still within the gray zone. For example if north korea assume all south korean are militant it would be disaster.
There are also other issue. Living across a wall separating Palestinian while living in colonizing state on land built on top of Palestinian villages fully knowing about incident where IDF bombed or shot many innocent people is questionable in my opinion.
I believe people who live in these area as second class to the zionist regime. They either :1) want to help Palestinians, 2) poor, 3) sadist zionist enjoying the misery of others. I also think the zionist don’t care about these people, important people would be in the main cities or in other countries enjoying the benefits with no risk to their live. And that is why we see Hannibal directive and no attempt to negotiate their release.
Sickening…
absolutely love how tankies in here are somehow turning this around to be Israels fault
Apparently nowadays anybody who’s not a full blown Genocidal ethno-Fascist who approves when “their” people mass murder “human animal” children is a tankie.
It’s like how anything left of center used to be deemed Communism in America, with the main difference that this is the ethno-Fascist (the most far-right violent kind of ideology there is) version so anything less than strong approval of ethnic Genocide is deemed Tankie.
It is classic to label and insult people with no value to discuss the main topic at hand. Especially when you call their hypocrisy of response in supporting Ukraine self determination and fight against Russia and their genocidal, demonic, support of killing innocent children in Gaza.
It’s a very traditional Fascist technique (not only theirs but, damn, they do love it), to deem criticism of their actions to be motivated by the critics supporting an “enemy” side.
I’m not certain if that’s because they’re intellectually or emotionally unable to conceive that people can judge words and actions without putting “side” as the top criteria and hence will criticize equally what they see as wrong and point out relentless lying from specifc actors independently of “side”, if that’s because that’s just the kind of argumentation Fascists get indoctrinated/teached to use, or both.
There is no inconsistency in their posture towards Russia and their posture towards Israel for somebody unable to conceive of any judgement criteria more important than “what is their side”, since for them tribe is more important than everything and thus excuses everything, even mass murder of chidren.
Unsusprisingly, Zionist arguments are incredibly similar to the ones from the Nazis, including this beautiful example I commented on in my previous post, were the critics were deemed to be Communists, EXACTLY LIKE THE NAZIS used to do.
You’re writing this under a Post of “your” people killing hostages. So if you don’t support “your” people mass murdering “human animals”, you should actually agree with me.
You’re the one spouting tribalist shit - clearly you see Zionists as “your” people.
Tribalists always think those who are against the actions of “their” group or do not trust the words from the leaders of "their"group must do so because they support some “other”, enemy people - a posture you consistently displayed in the way you tried “othering” critics of your favorite mass murderers on your first post by accusing them of being Authoritarian Communists and are trying to do the same to me on this post by implying I support Hamas.
Either you’re too limited in your humanity to be aware that normal human beings generally hold Humanist Principles which are independent of tribe (such as “though shall not mass murder people because of their ethnicity”) and hence their criticism is based on the character the words and actions of those they criticise (rather than be like you and put “side” above everything else including one’s humanity), or you’re just too lazy and repeatedly use the very old, very traditional Fascist “line of attack” (especially beloved of ethno-Facists such as Nazis and Zionists) of accusing critics of being part of some “out group” which the Fascists deem an enemy.
Oh really? I just stated neutrally that “Hamas killing civillians is Bad and none other than Hamas’ fault.”
You had to show up and make it all about teams justifying things.
Stop trying to gaslight me
Your whole post that started this thread is:
absolutely love how tankies in here are somehow turning this around to be Israels fault
So just now you outright lied when your wrote:
I just stated neutrally that “Hamas killing civillians is Bad and none other than Hamas’ fault.”
Further, a person with a bunch of flags on their profile (for the record and in case you change it the flags are of Ukranie, EU, Taiwan and Israel) claiming they’re not about “teams” is either a ridiculously self-deluded person or a shameless liar. People don’t go around parading their favorite nations or blocks of nations when they’re not into supporting “teams”.
“This is Hamas Fault and Hamas’ alone, no matter what tankies try to tell you”
Yes, both messages are the same. I’m the first I’m explicitly warning of a group trying to twist the narrative, but they’re the same.
No, you can absolutely be neutral and have Flags and not be on Teams The EU Is my Team, the others are not. The others are symbols of who I think is innocent (or in the case of the middle east: less guilty)
I mean, I still hang up the Pride Flag during Pride Month, despite not being gay or anyhoe related to them or “on their team” simply because I, from my neutral position, have decided that their Position is the one I deem more “just”
Taking Israel’s side is like taking Russia’s side.
Both are objectively doing the same thing.
That is the Tankie position. End justifies the means. Fascism is justified.
It’s you.
awful take
gaslighting a Nation into thinking they’re at fault for you killing their people is fucking awful
Do you also think that the US is responsible for 9/11?
Or Russia is at fault for the Terror Attack on the Opera recently?
No, trying to twist the truth so that the anti-western side is the good one, trying to defend them, that is the real tankie stance
The US knew that a major attack was being planned by bin laden months before 9/11. Bush, purposefully or ignorantly, ignored or minimized these warnings directly leading to the attack.
There’s also the aspect of it where the US funded and trained bin Laden prior to the attack because he was useful to us in the 80’s.
And the US warned Russia of the Moscow Attack
Does that mean that the US/Russia is responsible for the Terror attack against them?
Please don’t talk around it. “I think that yes/no [because …]”
Because I think that Terror Attacks are always the fault of the Terrorists killing people
The same way I think that incidents of rape are always the fault of the rapist and never the victim.
Terrorism is politics by other means.
If you deny a people redress of grievances, say by refusing to participate in the international criminal court, you can’t be surprised when desperate people act out of desperation.
One man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter.
I’m not saying that it’s right, but it certainly didn’t justify the 20 years we spent playing in the desert, nor the genocide Israel is commiting on the Palestinians now.
If you have explicit knowledge that can save peoples lives and you choose not to act on it then yes you’re directly responsible for that loss of life.
Pretty sure my take is the opposite.
But yeah if you think that we were blameless on 9/11 disregards the history of US foreign politicy.
And Israel? Pretty sure that the last 70 years of illegal occupation had nothing to do with October 7th, right? Or “self defense” lasting 11 months? Getting pretty close to operation Iraqi Freedom there bud.
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