This comment section: “Actually I’m pretty sure the bike fell over for reasons unrelated to the stick”
In this thread: User ThuleanPerspective apparently losing their fucking minds and then having their entire account comment history removed. I’ve never been so intrigued to know what crazy nonsense this person posts.
Update: Looked closer at their history. Managed to comment in dozens of threads per minute. Likely a bot that got removed. That’s more boring than I’d hoped.
They did the exact same thing with a different account yesterday. I’m guessing this is going to be a thing for a while.
The annoying thing is it’s just one federated server with bot accounts. Wish with enough use or mod votes something we could automatically defederate
Ive seen those kind of posts all the way back to the reddit Exodus. No idea what their motives are even.
If you’re curious as to the actual content of their spam posts, I actually saw some of them (yesterday) (on a different post) (from one of their alt accounts) (they have several now)
It’s essentially a wall of gibberish text, all caps, followed by what appears to be series of ai-generated images of a naked Simpsons character. Didn’t examine it too closely as it was NSFW
It also features George Floyd getting choked by booty cheeks and the cop who murdered him doing a Fortnite dance.
Wow, that’s pretty vile. Seems like the mods/admins are pretty on top of it at this point, I’m seeing the occasional ocean of deleted comments from different alts
The fact that that image exists at all (aside from the obviously horrifying murder)…like someone learned about the murder, thought it up, and then created it. And then shared it. Who does that??
Racists, and or people who don’t care about people and want to revel in it. For some people, doing such vile things gets them off.
More NSFL
That was Varg Vikernes’s YouTube name before he got banned. Not sure the connection between a Simpson’s spam bot and a racist/murderer/arsonist black metal musician but kind of interesting.
It’s someone using macros to fuck with every comment section.
You got it backwards mate. Young men are falling for those charlatans because they provide an easy solution to the loneliness epidemic (of which young men are the most likely victims).
Well, most accurate would be a feedback loop, but the point still stands that it’s self-harm, regardless of why it arises.
to the loneliness epidemic (of which young men are the most likely victims).
I read this statement of yours my initial reaction is not very complimentary. Instead of making assumptions on what you mean and assuming the worst, I’m interested in your view to see if I would find validity with it, or if my initial reaction was sound. Do you have any source you’d consider objective on this you’d recommend me reading to explain your position/definition on this?
A simple search with the keywords “men” and “loneliness epidemic” should pull up plenty of resources on the topic. I’m on mobile right now and don’t feel like doing a whole deep-dive but here’s an article from NASW
Quote:
A 2020 research study found that age and gender can influence how lonely people feel. Younger people report more loneliness than older people, and men are more vulnerable to loneliness that is more intense than women.
There’s plenty of debate to be had for whose “fault” this is, but the fact that young men are facing the brunt of the loneliness epidemic is a matter of fact that’s reinforced by countless polls.
A simple search with the keywords “men” and “loneliness epidemic” should pull up plenty of resources on the topic.
Instead of me doing some rando search and assuming those were your views, I was asking for examples/articles on your views. I don’t think you want Joe Rogan or Tate talking for you, do you? Both of those assholes show up in those broad searches.
I’m on mobile right now and don’t feel like doing a whole deep-dive but here’s an article from NASW
'Gender roles appear to contribute to male adolescent loneliness. “In most cultures, men are expected to provide. Men are expected to lead,” says Romero. ’
I don’t disagree that these ideas exist. Some cultures far more than others. In most western cultures however, the embrace of acknowledging the contributions and strengths of women work to combat this. The recognition that they’ve had it bad for hundreds of years and this new problem with men is a short term whiplash.
Men should reject these ideas that men are the default providers or leaders. Believe those are true is an irrational trap. Men can be leaders or providers, but so can women.
I don’t disagree that these ideas exist. Some cultures far more than others. In most western cultures however, the embrace of acknowledging the contributions and strengths of women work to combat this. The recognition that they’ve had it bad for hundreds of years and this new problem with men is a short term whiplash.
What?
“Have they tried rejecting their depression? what, are they stupid?”
This is how it feels, and the reality of actually existing, Men are frequently valued based off of their potential(earning or otherwise) in the real world, just by saying you reject it isn’t going to make this suddenly not true and just clear everything up in your life.
The solution to a young mans worry about his potential and place in life is… acknowledging the contributions and strengths of women? that is an opinion.
What?
“Have they tried rejecting their depression? what, are they stupid?”
Congrats! I never said that. First, Clinical Depression is a serious matter and shame on you for trying to suggest that any amount of just thinking differently would change the outcome. There are documented medical causes and treatments by qualified psychiatrists. Millions of people suffer from Clinical Depression and its a serious matter. For those in need, I highly recommend seeking help. There’s no shame it in. We’re all broken and need help sometimes.
However, we’re not talking about Clinical Depression. We’re talking about social and cultural norms about the role of men and the disillusion that arises when those old ideas don’t match today’s reality.
This is how it feels, and the reality of actually existing, Men are frequently valued based off of their potential(earning or otherwise) in the real world,
By who? Who’s opinion do you care about that is making that judgement of you? What is THEIR motive for judging you such?
just by saying you reject it isn’t going to make this suddenly not true and just clear everything up in your life.
Of course not. If you’re looking for a ‘silver bullet’ solution you’re not going to find one. Humans a irrational, greedy, hurt, self interested, and angry. Welcome to life. However, recognized what is important to you instead of seeking validation from others is the start.
The solution to a young mans worry about his potential and place in life is… acknowledging the contributions and strengths of women? that is an opinion.
The acknowledgement is that women have faced many of these same questions for hundreds or thousands of years. This isn’t new. Its just new to young men. That recognition should do a few things:
- Give you empathy that the women in your life you love have faced these struggles and you’ve been immune to them up to now. Talk to them. Ask them how they navigate life. While not all of it will, see if any of it can give you guidance too.
- Realize you are not alone. No, not just other young men are in it with you, but lots of women too.
- Start questioning where you derive your ‘worth’ from. Ask yourself why you’re letting other people define that for you. Ask if you agree with their definitions.
Congrats! I never said that. First, Clinical Depression is a serious matter and shame on you for trying to suggest that any amount of just thinking differently would change the outcome.
Oh my bad.
This you?
Men should reject these ideas that men are the default providers or leaders. Believe those are true is an irrational trap. Men can be leaders or providers, but so can women.
Rejecting ideas -> changing the way they think
And not only that, you for some reason think that everyone should change their opinions to match your world view.
Sorry, I reject your giant wall of pedantry and goal post moving.
I’m not the one you’re responding to, but I have a recent, relevant, non-biased video here that discusses the issue from a mental health standpoint.
I don’t have time at the moment for the whole 1h and 30 min, but I listened to the first 7 min and saw the topic titles for the remaining. So far its pretty agreeable ideas (Each person is responsible for their own happiness. Its not ‘owed’ to you by someone else. Seeking pure external validation is a path to ruin.) However, so far this doesn’t support the idea posted before of “young men are victims” yet. I will listen to the rest though before passing judgment.
Why do you need to assign victimhood to a factor of modern existence? We’re all hyperconnected and lonely as fuck.
https://ourworldindata.org/social-connections-and-loneliness
They’re fixating more on the “man” part than the “loneliness” part.
I am, because many of the worst arguments I’ve seen revolve around men believe they are entitled to the affections of others no matter how toxic their own personality is. I want to make sure @[email protected] 's argument isn’t that.
Loneliness ≠ not getting affection.
Why do you need to assign victimhood
I’m not doing that. @[email protected] is. I generally disagree with that idea, but before I pass judgment I’m willing to listen to arguments. Thats exactly what I’m doing. Listening to arguments.
Why are you so quick to judgment when you don’t know what people think or believe?
Are they? or they want to be exactly because they think linke this? They want perfect supermodel women even though they look like shrek and any woman that is not flawless is “a crime and should die”. I’m not even talking about ugly woman, if a girl has acne, is chubbier, wear glasses etc they are “too ugly for them”. They have mental issues thara are just exploited by rogans and tates, not victims
Whoa, whoa! Miss, incels are misunderstood victims, never entitled and self-centered assholes. Take your downvote. (/s).
its the world’s fault for me being a complete piece of shit
Lmao, the victim complex of the most abusive subgroup of men on the planet is hilarious.
Please, tell me more about your immunity to propaganda.
The reality is that there’s a lot of money to be made in telling young, single, socially removed men what they want to hear and there are just as many people ready to make that money.
Identifying a person as a victim of one thing isn’t an excuse for any other harm that they perpetuate.
I didn’t say anything about immunity to propaganda.
Feel free to address what I said, though. I’m mocking the ironic victim complex of abusive individuals.
My grevience is a very basic application of social Marxism.
I’m saying that the “most abusive subgroup of men” aren’t born, they’re made through propaganda and charlatans. That makes them victims, which I have some sympathy for, even if they go on to perpetuate an awful cycle of misogyny. I’m just critical of these kinds of arguments like the OP which place the blame on the perpetuaters instead of the sources.
Despite this, shame is still a valid application of positive punishment to active participants of an abusive subgroup.
Go be the carrot to somebody who needs a philosophy 101 course to justify defending actively harmful forms of propoganda from criticism. I’m not your guy, I have my own objectives in this discourse.
Ultimately, none of this invalidates the observation of an ironic use of a victim complex.
“Valid” in what sense? Of course you’re allowed to shame people who perpetuate terrible actions/thoughts against women. But when that group was literally created by and has grown through pre-existing, socially reinforced thoughts of shame and inadequacy, I’m going to hold you slightly responsible for that problem continuing.
I’m going to hold you responsible for defending them from criticism they need to face. You are creating a safe space for abusive ideologies to fester.
Yep and it’s people like OP that only serve to reinforce their us vs them mentality. The political movements that paint masculinity as evil, or just simply stupid, paint with too broad of a brush. The western world moved mountains to understand and fix things like a lack of women in STEM - to the point that it became a meme. And likewise, society at large is so downright hostile to the struggle of the average joe who tries to do what society asked of him and talk about his problems that it’s also become a meme.
The fact that they don’t see the dangerous appeal of a man who claims to have all the answers reminds me of another time in history. The “morally righteous” will fail us again.
What political movements paint masculinity as evil?
Had an older co-worker who kept saying that Andrew Tate had some real gems and that he was just telling young men to give up videogames and hit the gym if they wanted some self worth.
So one day I looked him dead in the eye and gave him my best impersonation of a 1950’s radio voice and said. " Young ladies if you don’t work on refining and improving your womanly figure with clean living and labourous exercise and not stop wasting your time reading novels then how will you ever expect to catch a husband?!"
I would like to say that I scored a point but he just sputtered and went on being horrible.
deleted by creator
Andrew Tate is the absolute worst, but it is also a fact - one that has been true for all of recorded history - that competing with each other for female attention is a generally popular male motivation. And when a guy doesn’t do those things, he can expect mockery. Do you have anything nice to say about neckbeards? No? Didn’t think so.
Neckbeards are some of the best Dungeon Masters and I ain’t lying
They’re also some of the best FOSS developers. But neither of those things are what most people (men and women) consider attractive
I mean the premise is flawed. The “neckbeards” are not intrinsically unlovable but they are getting duped into being annoying and problematic to people.
When you treat the attention of any kind of people as a status symbol or a commodity to use for bragging rights or prestige for others it’s not exactly fair to the people whom you are essentially using. You see the same principle with famous people. Being in any kind of relationship with someone, even friends, soley because you like what their association does for your image is a jerk thing to do
The people who do the mocking are every bit at fault for being assholes. Only when the person being mocked accepts the assholes premise as true and care about their acceptance do they also become an asshole in turn.
I wondered why some of these men say these nonsensical and mysoginistic things despite being popular and pretty good looking. Were they not taught to respect women? Then there is the answer: they weren’t. It dawned on me that not everyone were taught the same as I was-- to not give in to insecurities and that you don’t have to prove anything to anyone. Of course, it’s recommended to improve one’s self, but if the end goal is transactional and expect reward rather than doing things because it’s the right thing, then boy you will just lead yourself to a downward spiral of disappointment and cynicism. I’ve seen this on a few people close to me trying to prove themselves to anyone who don’t necessarily care about them. I have a mate to bought an expensive but ugly pair of Gucci shoes to impress a rich girl who strings him along, rather than court someone who will accept him for who he is. We’re trying to impress people we don’t like and don’t like us, instead of building meaningful relationship with people who will accept you.
You’re being mocked for not conforming to masculine stereotype? Fuck them. If they are truly your friends, they should accept you for who you are. Find a new group of people who are like-minded and open minded.
I can’t think of anything nice to say about neckbeards but I can say some lovely things about some guys I know who spend more time playing games than working out
I was playing a copy of an N64 Star Wars game with my friend’s daughter. She’d never seen an N64 game before and said “Wow! It’s Star Wars Minecraft!”
That moment made my day, I’m never giving up video games.
You’re being downvoted for pointing out human nature. You’re not wrong, we compete for females. We’re animals, even if people want to lie and claim we’ve progressed. We have not.
One of the best things taught to me growing up is that you don’t have to prove yourself to anyone. There are shallow people, but why waste time with them? Why not go with people who are more open-minded, have good control to not give into superficial and shallow biological instincts, and will accept you for who you are?
Yes, we’re all taught that. Our evolutionary instinct is stronger than your teachings, more often than not.
Open minded people open their legs too. That’s just reality.
Murder and rape is also natural but not everyone does it and we frown upon it. We have laws against it.
Giving in to instincts that are not productive is showing weakness.
Ya, we live in a society and we should place restrictions around our innate nature, we’ve learned about the perils of not doing so.
That doesn’t in anyway mean it’s not our nature. It’s weird people are offended by this reality.
We don’t go on physical fights to win over a women. It’s destructive. How difficult is it to understand? We don’t act on destructive instincts because it’s not productive and, well, destructive.
I always say this to others, but you must be with running with a bad crowd to hold such warped view.
Bullshit. This queer begs to fucking differ.
Well ya, you’re a freak of nature by literal definition, of course you wouldn’t agree. Humans, like all animals have a drive to reproduce. You don’t have that drive, you’re not relevant.
You’re going to interpret this literal fact as homophobia too which is kinda funny if you knew me LoL.
Homosexuality has been observed in species including birds, fish, insects, and over 1500 species of mammals.
Blowjobs don’t make babies, and homophobia is only observed in one species. Who’s a freak of nature now? Checkmate heteros!
Ok? What’s your point? Are you trying to use homosexuality as an argument against the imperative to procreate?
WTF is wrong with you? You should listen to some blood hound gang this evening LMFAO.
“Nature” doesn’t have any rigid set of rules that push us to be anything specific, in fact it’s very much the opposite resulting in evolution and adaptation that is constantly interfering with the traits getting passed down. Sure we have biological mechanisms resulting from this that will reward us for things that tend to increase the population over time, because individuals that didn’t were unlikely to reproduce, but even those aren’t consistent from individual to individual, and are regularly suppressed and regulated in response to changing environments as would be seen in nature. Nature is constantly and relentlessly progressing, it’s just slow on a human timescale.
Science and nature are not forcing you or anyone to be misogynistic, that’s just the excuse many have decided to use so they don’t have to confront themselves or the complicated societal issues behind it.
Nature has one general rule…procreate.
That’s why you’re here. Me too.
I’ve gotten all of my opinions from twitch streamers, and suddenly I’m miserable!
Jokes on you, I’m miserable even without that
Me too, I didn’t need shitty advice to fuck up everything
Backwards thinking.
Andrew Tate isn’t creating these young men out of well adjusted people.
Young men today face a mountain of issues with zero sympathy from the people or institutions around them. And grifters prey on these men.
Having grown up in the “teach boys not to rape” era of progrssive rhetoric, it’s actually insane to see all these people just insist being in a guy’s world is all sunshine and rainbows and all these men are just awful people falling of their own accord.
Young men get told some pretty damaging things growing up, even from progressive people.
Everyone has problems, lots of people are coming of age all kinds of fucked up, and we can’t fix this by implying it’s all their own doing.
You mean there is more to this than a black and white interpretation of the issues??
Young men in many areas are ridiculously hopeless with despair - its not really something that is talked about.
Young men in many areas are ridiculously hopeless with despair - its not really something that is talked about.
With uncontrolled climate change slowly destroying the world as we know it, can you blame them for being hopeless with despair?
You just revealed a lot more than I think you realize.
Climate change isn’t part of the discussion.
No one is trying to blame anyone in this context.
We’re talking about cultural issues that are tied in with the mental and emotional growth of people.
So very much hate and malicious intent is created by unstable people brought up to sincerely believe that what they do and believe is right. Often this is due to some religious indoctrination, though other reasons exist. Few are those who are truly evil at their core. In another group we have the confused and the uncertain trying to just exist in a world that is often cruel and unfair. As they grow and in moments of extreme vulnerability they reach out for answers.
As an online community one of the healthiest activities we can do is talk about these things. Express that shit is hard and offer encouragement and positive, safe places away from conmen and manipulators, as much as we are able. To do that we need to focus where we can.
Young men today face a mountain of issues with zero sympathy from the people or institutions around them. And grifters prey on these men
Idk, I don’t feel like young women are really offered any kind of safety net or support system that isn’t being offered to boys.
it’s actually insane to see all these people just insist being a guy’s world is all sunshine and rainbows and all these men are just awful people falling of their own accord.
This is the thing, I constantly hear how awful young men are being treated. I don’t ever really hear any specific reasoning that can’t be explained by other means other than sexism against men.
Imo this is one of the first generations of young men, especially young white men, that weren’t born on third base. The men’s right movement is a reactionary movement that’s just upset about being placed on an equal footing, and then falling to achieve the same results of previous generations of young white men.
That feeling of slowly rolling a stone up a hill all day as others unbound by such heavy burdens briskly walk by is the same feeling poc and women have experienced in this country since it’s inception. You aren’t being treated worse than everyone else, it’s just that equality feels like prosecution to those who have traditionally lived charmed lives. Welcome to the jungle, I hope you learn to enjoy your stay. I think the affectations of the moneyed class have ended, they have decided they don’t have to keep up the charade. We’re all the same to them now, and will all be exploited as such.
Ignoring the issues people face becuase they come from what you determine to be a “privileged” class is just another form of bigotry.
Young men don’t stand to benifit from the same patriarchal systems we do, nor do we stand to benifit from the patriarchal systems our fathers did. And even if it did, one privileged doesn’t nullify the issues faced by other inequalities such as race, wealth, class, ability.
The issues they face are real reguardless of what privilege they have or are assumed to have.
Equality should be about giving every individual a fair chance at life regardless of who they are or what they came from. Not some team sport where “one side” must be crushed under to goosestep of self proclaimed progress seekers.
Ignoring the issues people face becuase they come from what you determine to be a “privileged” class is just another form of bigotry.
Simply stating that the problems are not intrinsic to being male is not ignoring the problem.
Young men don’t stand to benifit from the same patriarchal systems we do, nor do we stand to benifit from the patriarchal systems our fathers did.
Who is we? What I’m saying is that young males are not being hurt anymore than any other demographic, they just aren’t culturally inoculated to it, and so they think they’re worse off.
And even if it did, one privileged doesn’t nullify the issues faced by other inequalities such as race, wealth, class, ability.
I never claimed it did?
issues they face are real reguardless of what privilege they have or are assumed to have.
Like? As I said, I keep hearing these blanket statements attesting to unique issues, but no one claims what they are or how they occur.
Equality should be about giving every individual a fair chance at life regardless of who they are or what they came from.
Do you think that we are living in some sort of post scarcity society? If there is an elevated class, its only means of elevation is to stand on the heads of it’s "equal"counterparts.
Not some team sport where “one side” must be crushed under to goosestep of self proclaimed progress seekers.
Lol, and those who stood on our heads suddenly proclaimed themselves victims. How do you think they stand elevated if not by crushing down the competition?
It’s only goose-stepping when the boot is on your face, when its someone’s else’s face they’re told to turn the other cheek.
Nobody is arguing for “elevation”, nobody in their right state of mind anyway, and I’m not asking anyone to turn their cheek to anyone wrong doings done to them. However, when it’s men who feel wronged you ask them to turn the other cheek. Man up. Deal with it.
The fact of the matter is it’s exactly this dogmatic rejecting of men that pushes them towards people like Andrew Tate. If the progressive zeitgeist refuses to listen to someone, they will follow anyone else who will. We shouldn’t tolerate the intolerant, but if we truly seek to defeat it we must understand it and treat the systemic issues that cause it to arise. It’s not the romantic ideal of the rebel taking down the empire in a victorious display of self-satisfaction, but it is the method that gets lasting results.
I’ve never stood on anyone’s heads, least of all yours. I’d appreciate it if you could at least treat the next generation with the same respect.
Nobody is arguing for “elevation”
I think validating the claim that young men are specifically being treated worse than others in similar demographics is a tacit validation of allowing them to maintain their hierarchy.
However, when it’s men who feel wronged you ask them to turn the other cheek. Man up. Deal with it.
I can’t control how people feel? If someone feels wronged, but can’t explain how or why, am I supposed to genuflect in agreement? If two people are struck in the face, and only one of them cries, should I ignore the stoic? We should be improving the lives of all young people, not just the ones who shout about it the most.
The fact of the matter is it’s exactly this dogmatic rejecting of men that pushes them towards people like Andrew Tate.
I’m not rejecting that young men face problems, I’m just claiming they don’t face any problems more dire than anyone elses problem in the same demographics.
You just interpret that as rejection because you don’t empathize with the others.
We shouldn’t tolerate the intolerant, but if we truly seek to defeat it we must understand it and treat the systemic issues that cause it to arise.
And we do that by being more concerned about the problems of young men than others?
It’s not the romantic ideal of the rebel taking down the empire in a victorious display of self-satisfaction, but it is the method that gets lasting results.
What do they want, what are you willing to give them? According to the men’s right movement, their problem is that women are too free to turn down their advanced, women are too educated, no one wants to be their trad wife, and that there’s just too much competition in the job place because of things like affirmative action.
If that’s their problem, I don’t care, and I don’t really feel like he needs to validate their opinion.
I’ve never stood on anyone’s heads, least of all yours. I’d appreciate it if you could at least treat the next generation with the same respect.
You are an individual…we are talking about socioeconomics. We are talking about the systemic abuse that’s affected every demographic in America besides white men since the inception of this country.
Do you think the golden era of American history that the men’s right wants to revert to was shared by everyone in the country? That black families were able to afford a spacious house and take care of a large family on one person’s income? No, that was only a possibility for certain demographics. White men were given free home loans from the government, black families were sent to the projects, and women weren’t even able to open bank accounts.
You aren’t worried about the next generation, you’re only worried about the next generation of young white men.
Progress isn’t a competition, there need not be losers. We can acknowledge two things being bad at the same time. As we type there are children being forced to mine toxic cobalt with no protection just so we can have these electronics to argue. How can we argue our lives are any bad compared to them? Might as well put off anyone’s progress until we finally beat out the modern salve trade. It’s a unproductive way of thinking.
Do you think a newborn “white male” as your oppressor too? Someone who has never had the chance to do anyone wrong? Must they really be subject to your scorn?
And what of the white men today? If they gain nothing from your progress, then why must they be concerned with it? After all you seem to think that white men as a class have the ability to crush others with their privilege. How could we expect these people to work in the interest of a movement that only seeks to take from them indiscriminately? And wouldn’t it be natural for them to simply follow the example that you have given them? Be wrathful, spiteful, hateful, boil down human beings to their perceived class, do anything to get a win for their own group. Hell just look at the news, abortion rights are being repealed in America. This is happening in real time, and I promise you neither of us are happy about it.
Socioeconomics can say whatever it wants about groups and demographics and “numbers this” or “numbers that”, that doesn’t change the fact that we are individuals in a world of many other individuals. Privilege, true and quantifiable privilege, is always relative and we should listen when people tell us about their problems, since it will encourage and empower them to do the same.
We can together to build a world that’s better for everyone, but that requires that we don’t waste our lives away trying to hold each other down out of a need for revenge. Every step we take for ourselves or our own perceived group is a step backwards, and it’ll be our children who will have to make up for that. Do you care for the next generation, and what you’ll leave them to deal with?
Progress isn’t a competition, there need not be losers. We can acknowledge two things being bad at the same time.
Then why do you insist that we divide class solidarity among gender? Why not advocate for improving life for all young people instead of insisting that men’s problems take priority?
As we type there are children being forced to mine toxic cobalt with no protection just so we can have these electronics to argue. How can we argue our lives are any bad compared to them? Might as well put off anyone’s progress until we finally beat out the modern salve trade. It’s a unproductive way of thinking.
Lol, what kind of rhetoric is that? Children in other countries work in cobalt mines, so it’s okay if American kids work at McDonald’s…
We are talking about equity in our own country, we are talking specifically about whether young men in the west are really experiencing more or worse problems than their counterparts.
Do you think a newborn “white male” as your oppressor too? Someone who has never had the chance to do anyone wrong? Must they really be subject to your scorn?
Lol, we are talking about sociology, not an individuals psychology. I don’t scorn individuals for being a part of any class, but i do scorn individuals try and preserve the class hierarchy for their own benefit.
And what of the white men today? If they gain nothing from your progress, then why must they be concerned with it?
That’s the thing, when we protect the most disadvantaged class we help protect every other class perceived as better than. This is a foundational to ideologies like feminism. If you can’t charge a disadvantaged class with some accusation, then there is no fear for the classes perceived to be more valuable.
This is one of problems with labeling white men as the most disadvantaged class. If we spend all our effort protecting A class that doesn’t really need protection, then we are leaving people actually in danger out on a line.
After all you seem to think that white men as a class have the ability to crush others with their privilege.
Do you think white men today as a class have not benefited from generational wealth created by systemic racism? What do you think slavery was if not crushing others with privilege?
How could we expect these people to work in the interest of a movement that only seeks to take from them indiscriminately?
So now equality is stealing? Just because I don’t think that white men are the most disadvantaged people in our country, I’m now taking from them indiscriminately?
What is progressive to these young men, what else could they possibly want that other people have?
And wouldn’t it be natural for them to simply follow the example that you have given them? Be wrathful, spiteful, hateful, boil down human beings to their perceived class, do anything to get a win for their own group.
Yeah… Seems to be exactly what they are doing. You have heard of Andrew Tate, correct?
Hell just look at the news, abortion rights are being repealed in America. This is happening in real time, and I promise you neither of us are happy about it.
And your solution is to …validate the men’s right movement? You’re literally claiming that men are not privileged, yet they are able to pass abortion laws. Further more you are saying that they are doing this because we don’t baby them enough in progressive political spaces.
Socioeconomics can say whatever it wants about groups and demographics and “numbers this” or “numbers that”, that doesn’t change the fact that we are individuals in a world of many other individuals.
You do understand that we don’t make policies around individuals?
Privilege, true and quantifiable privilege, is always relative
Relative to what…?
we should listen when people tell us about their problems, since it will encourage and empower them to do the same.
Oh yeah, I’m sure that encouraging the klansmen to air his grievances will surely benefit me, a man of color?
but that requires that we don’t waste our lives away trying to hold each other down out of a need for revenge.
It’s problematic to me that you think equality euates to revenge. I’m not saying to be mean to young white men, or even judge them. My only claims is that we shouldn’t prioritize white men’s problems over other demographics. And to you that means I’m thirsty for revenge?
Every step we take for ourselves or our own perceived group is a step backwards
And how does that apply to your original claim?
I still find it hilarious that you haven’t answerd my original rebuttal. How exactly are young men any worse off than anyone else in a similar demographic?
it’s just that equality feels like prosecution to those who have traditionally lived charmed lives
I cannot speak for “that country”, assuming you mean the US, as I don’t live there. That said, I think people don’t have actual past lives as a reference. If my grandfather or father lived in a different world, this can at most create expectations, but cannot be really generating a feeling of prosecution, because the current one is the only life I have actually lived and I know.
Then there is another issue, which is that in reality there are a lot of factors that determine whether you are born “in third base”. Gender, historically, has been one of them, but it’s far from being a guarantee. However, the political discourse often flattens this issue and makes it almost two-dimensional. If you are a white man, you are privileged, period. Fact is, there are tons of white man that are absolutely not privileged, and are also victim of an unequal and oppressive society. These people are substantially alienated because their voice is simply not represented anywhere. My leftist interpretation is that some of the egalitarian discourse (feminism, LGBT rights etc.) has been to some extent swallowed by the status quo, and lost a lot of the revolutionary potential it had, becoming more focused on individual perception and rights, rather than on systemic issues that therefore could capture also the dynamics of a white man being also oppressed, even if from a different angle. In other words, if feminism is purely focused on battles of women as a group of individuals, and not as part of a system that oppresses them within a wider mechanism, then oppressed people that don’t strictly belong to that category have a much harder time to see in women a reflection of their own oppression.
Basically, a realization such as:
We’re all the same to them now, and will all be exploited as such.
was true already decades (centuries) ago, and that’s why lots of feminist battles were linked to socialism and leftist ideologies. This is nothing new, really, and forcing to read the current issues only from the racial perspective or only from the gender perspective (etc.) makes it much harder to build solidarity between groups who are instead left to fight battles within the system, without a perspective or a struggle to move past it.
If my grandfather or father lived in a different world, this can at most create expectations, but cannot be really generating a feeling of prosecution, because the current one is the only life I have actually lived and I know.
The problem is that even if your grandfather isn’t around to tell you about it, the evidence of his accomplishments outlive him. You don’t need to embody someone’s personal lives to understand that your grandfather lived an upper middle class working at a factory, and you can barely afford to make rent. That your father married his highschool sweetheart and started a family in his twenties, and you’re thirty and can barely afford groceries for yourself.
the political discourse often flattens this issue and makes it almost two-dimensional. If you are a white man, you are privileged, period. Fact is, there are tons of white man that are absolutely not privileged, and are also victim of an unequal and oppressive society.
Right…but can you claim in an academically honest way that a poor white man has historically been offered more opportunities to succeed than a poor black man? That poor white men and poor black men have the same opportunities to lift themselves out of their class structure?
These people are substantially alienated because their voice is simply not represented anywhere.
Idk, I would say the majority of the United States Congress has been very open to mens rights advocacy. This discourse revolves around people like Tate who have created space specifically for men to air their grievances.
Some say they are driven there because they have no progressive place to go. I just think they don’t want anything to do with progressive spaces, because progressive spaces do not put them on a pedestal. They are included vicariously, the progressive ideology of supporting young people doesn’t preclude young men. It just isn’t solely focused on them.
was true already decades (centuries) ago, and that’s why lots of feminist battles were linked to socialism and leftist ideologies.
I agree, but until recently there has always been a social understanding that what is good for the goose is good for the gander. So long as the upper class threw enough scraps down from the table, the pet class would support the hierarchy.
This is nothing new, really, and forcing to read the current issues only from the racial perspective or only from the gender perspective (etc.) makes it much harder to build solidarity between groups who are instead left to fight battles within the system, without a perspective or a struggle to move past it.
That is my problem with specifically focusing on mens rights, it’s just another division in class solidarity.
You don’t need to embody someone’s personal lives to understand that your grandfather lived an upper middle class working at a factory, and you can barely afford to make rent. That your father married his highschool sweetheart and started a family in his twenties, and you’re thirty and can barely afford groceries for yourself.
Sure, and that’s why I spoke about expectations. But a feeling of being prosecuted requires something else, in my opinion. Everyone in the situation you describe would realize that the problems are common, and not “mine” because male. What I thought you were referring to was the dissonance between expecting a privileged life and having a regular one, such as not being handed over things on a silver platter and having to simply “work” for them.
Right…but can you claim in an academically honest way that a poor white man has historically been offered more opportunities to succeed than a poor black man? That poor white men and poor black men have the same opportunities to lift themselves out of their class structure?
Sure, but that doesn’t help anybody, because we don’t live in statistics and we don’t live historically. If I am a struggling person, telling me that historically the category that I happened to belong to was privileged hence I am privileged feels like adding insult to injury. In fact, the moment arguments such as “sorry, it has been centuries the turn for [CATEGORY] now it’s the turn of [OTHER CATEGORY]” are thrown around is the moment those categories will see themselves as adversaries for vital space, and not on the same side fighting against an oppressor, which is exactly what I think happens in many instances today. And make no mistake, I think this is by no means a coincidence, this is absolutely functional as such struggle is less threatening to who detains power.
Idk, I would say the majority of the United States Congress has been very open to mens rights advocacy. This discourse revolves around people like Tate who have created space specifically for men to air their grievances.
I am talking about mainstream and daily life. And it’s not even about men’s right, it’s about struggle of people independently from the individual social group(s) they belong to, but more focused on class (for example). The “men’s right” movement is a reactionary movement that sees in feminism and other movements a threat, and to some extend, they are a threat. Intersectional feminism is not mainstream, it did not really breach the social norm or discourse. What did breach is the superficial/apolitical version of it that stays on the surface. This is what people see everyday in movies, TV series, on the workplace, on social media etc. This is what I mean by not having representation, not having a voice.
They are included vicariously, the progressive ideology of supporting young people doesn’t preclude young men. It just isn’t solely focused on them.
I can’t talk about what’s going on in US, but what reaches on the other side of the ocean, doesn’t include men at all. In fact, the main cultural result of progressive movements that I can observe from here is “woke”-ism, which I lack a better term to define, which is basically apolitical and fully focused on individual elements within the status quo, but lacks a proper political frame and analysis and therefore is very narrow in scope (women, race and LGBT).
so long as the upper class threw enough scraps down from the table, the pet class would support the hierarchy.
I mean, the biggest political struggles happened almost 50 years ago. I really don’t see what you are referring to, nor I do see right now in any form a coherent political movement who focuses on the class struggle as main objective. Am I missing something, maybe?
That is my problem with specifically focusing on mens rights, it’s just another division in class solidarity.
I addressed this point earlier, but I will repeat it just to elaborate. I don’t care about men’s rights. I care about a class analysis and a political movement that uses it, which is able to channel all the struggles from oppressed people, starting from women and other minorities, without alienating some of them due to irrelevant differences. This is in essence my problem: the current mainstream “progressive” discourse has been so neutered politically that has become individualist and as such doesn’t capture the whole dynamic of class oppression. To make a concrete example, in tech the debate about women and other minorities is extremely hot and it’s absolutely common to be the sole focus of diversity initiatives etc. Obviously this is posturing from the companies’ perspective, but even the progressive people often fail to talk about other issues such as ageism (and many other things, ofc), which is an even bigger discriminatory factor in tech. It’s not that one is more important of the other (or viceversa), it’s that they are both results of the same exploitative dynamic and focusing on one of them without capturing the higher level problem becomes neutered and alienates people.
Sure, and that’s why I spoke about expectations. But a feeling of being prosecuted requires something else, in my opinion. Everyone in the situation you describe would realize that the problems are common, and not “mine” because male.
I am not that confident this is true. I don’t expect that level of self awareness in the majority of young people.
because we don’t live in statistics and we don’t live historically. If I am a struggling person, telling me that historically the category that I happened to belong to was privileged hence I am privileged
First I do think we live in statistics, some of us may be unaware of this but it affects nus either way. Secondly, I think the internal contradiction is that a poor white person is likely to believe they should be more privileged based on their race, but are not because of progressive policy. The same way poor people protect the wealthy from taxation.
Finally we are discussing social class, not how individuals react to the idea of social class. I didn’t say all white people were privileged people, I said white people belong to a privileged class. It’s the same as saying San Fransisco is a rich city, instead of saying everyone in San Francisco is rich. If you are not a rich person in San Francisco, and I said the problem is inherent in the wealth of San Francisco, would you take it personally?
am talking about mainstream and daily life. And it’s not even about men’s right, it’s about struggle of people independently from the individual social group(s) they belong to, but more focused on class (for example). The “men’s right” movement is a reactionary movement that sees in feminism and other movements a threat, and to some extend, they are a threat. Intersectional feminism is not mainstream, it did not really breach the social norm or discourse. What did breach is the superficial/apolitical version of it that stays on the surface. This is what people see everyday in movies, TV series, on the workplace, on social media etc. This is what I mean by not having representation, not having a voice.
Right, but who does have that kind of representation or voice if not white men? Even in your example you highlighted how intersectional feminism never got its time in the mainstream.
doesn’t include men at all. In fact, the main cultural result of progressive movements
I mean, I think that’s fairly natural if there really isn’t much room for men to progress in a society. If you’re already at the top, where else is there to make progress other than supporting allies who haven’t made it yet?
First I do think we live in statistics, some of us may be unaware of this but it affects nus either way.
What I mean is that if I am a white unemployed, poor, knowing that 90% of rich people are white and male doesn’t make me any richer or privileged.
a poor white person is likely to believe they should be more privileged based on their race
based on what you think so?
Finally we are discussing social class, not how individuals react to the idea of social class. I didn’t say all white people were privileged people, I said white people belong to a privileged class. It’s the same as saying San Fransisco is a rich city, instead of saying everyone in San Francisco is rich. If you are not a rich person in San Francisco, and I said the problem is inherent in the wealth of San Francisco, would you take it personally?
But this is the problem. Class is not tied with demography in itself, class has to do with relationship to wealth. White people don’t belong to a privileged class, the privileged class is mostly composed by white people. They are not the same thing. I would take it personally if you defined policy that worked on the assumption that “San Francisco” is rich, if I am one of the thousands of homeless people, indeed.
Right, but who does have that kind of representation or voice if not white men? Even in your example you highlighted how intersectional feminism never got its time in the mainstream.
Women and other minorities today have that representation. Mainstream discourse involves a lot these topics. Unfortunately not intersectional feminism, because that’s way too threatening.
I mean, I think that’s fairly natural if there really isn’t much room for men to progress in a society. If you’re already at the top
That’s the thing, being a man doesn’t make you on top. Thinking this way, with airtight categories is indicative of the kind of idea that as long as “a proportionate amount of women” are going to be “on top” (i.e., in position of power), we are fine. We are not. This always leave a significant amount of people oppressed. That’s why I think feminism should be (and partly is!) a transformative movement, and why I think it’s a problem that it has been swallowed by the status quo. This, to me, is the wrong battle. If someone told me that since I am man I am “on top”, and therefore I should just be an ally, I would feel alienated, because this fails completely to capture the mechanism of the system that oppresses both me and women.
What I mean is that if I am a white unemployed, poor, knowing that 90% of rich people are white and male doesn’t make me any richer or privileged.
Would that person be claiming that young white men are the most disadvantaged class?
Remember, I didn’t claim that all white people were privileged. Only that if you were to for some reason break class down to race and gender, young white men would not more discriminated against than anyone else.
based on what you think so?
I mean we are talking about people who are claiming that young white males are being ignored or specifically discriminated against. So they’re already drawing conclusions based on race. In America a common trope is to blame minorities for economic disparity. Going back prior to the civil war, where poor white farmers blamed the slaves for ruining the labor market.
Class is not tied with demography in itself, class has to do with relationship to wealth. White people don’t belong to a privileged class, the privileged class is mostly composed by white people. They are not the same thing.
Again, the original context was about a group who already specified their demography. The premise was that young white men were specifically disadvantaged.
My rebuttal was that specifying young white men, instead of just young people was problematic. But if we were to examine this demographic as a class, it would be hard to say they were disadvantaged. I did not define the structure of class in this argument, the person I was originally responding to did.
Women and other minorities today have that representation.
And white men do not?
That’s the thing, being a man doesn’t make you on top. Thinking this way, with airtight categories is indicative of the kind of idea that as long as “a proportionate amount of women” are going to be “on top” (i.e.,
When I said the top, I meant in policy. If we are talking about political equality, there are not a lot of reasons for men to justifiably advance their own rights.
If someone told me that since I am man I am “on top”, and therefore I should just be an ally, I would feel alienated, because this fails completely to capture the mechanism of the system that oppresses both me and women.
And if they told you they were progressive about mens rights?
I had a teacher point this out to me too by just pointing out the percentage of girls in the class. They call them the lost boy generation because good intentions to get women into paths like STEM resulted in forgetting about investing in the boys.
But also some of us boys need lots of damaging things its not a one size fits all. Not traumatizing stuff but damage is needed for boys. Boys need to be pushed and discipline and we need to break bones and fight and get dirty to become an adult who can go on to teach a new generation how to do those things safely and responsible.
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On top of all that, these days most rejection of men happens before there is even any opportunity for the men say anything. With dating apps putting so much emphasis on looks (a very small minority of users of these apps do anything but look at the first photo before swiping left or right), and surveys finding that women consider over 80% of men less attractive than ‘medium’ (i e. a 3 or lower on a 7 point scale), mean that tons of men reach that conclusion in the final panel simply from getting no traction with women at all, making whether they’re a Tate acolyte or whatever not even relevant.
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Believes all Staceys just want Chads
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Become a Chad by getting all roided up and crazy
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Staceys don’t want anything to do with me
SurprisedPikachu.jpg
Tbf being ripped does get the Stacies. Just not 8%bodyfat freakbeast roidmonster ripped.
Hitting the gym is the one thing self help gurus are right about.
Yes it completely works.
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The comments are quite saddening, and also quite worrying.
This isn’t to put women’s issues down, but men have problems too. There’s a reason why young men turn to these grifters and get manipulated by them.
Even above all of that, assuming you don’t agree, it’s a problem. We’re building up generations of uneducated and toxic men led by these role models. We can’t just shrug that off and say it’s not our issue, because at some point it is going to be our issue.
The patriarchy hurts everyone.
Appreciate this.
The patriarchy and gender roles are definitely a big part of why men suffer, and it’s as much of a men’s issue as it is a women’s issue.
That said, I do think it’s debatable on whether or not modern feminism is truly intent on dismantling it from both sides.
I find it telling that the meme is about men following idiotic “influencers” and so many people here are like “I identify with that man on the bike but my problems are unrelated”
I wouldn’t say identify. Pretty sure many of us don’t follow Andrew Tate or influencers in general. We’re showing empathy for the general situation. Sorry it bothered you.
There’s a reason why young men turn to these grifters and get manipulated by them.
Yes - they’re either idiots or have idiot parents.
I’m not really in those circles but I feel like the timeline is wrong here. I don’t think young men see these figures, then venture out parroting them and crash their metaphorical bicycle. I think the bicycle crash is what makes them seek out that content. Maybe that’s how it’s working with very young men who are just now starting to talk to girls, idk.
The problem from where I stand is that conventional advice on how to get attention from women doesn’t work like it used to. Young men are entering the world and finding that they’re just not as attractive as their mothers have been telling them their whole life, and setting yourself up to have a decent income isn’t the selling point that the older generation told us it was.
So you either focus on other areas of your life and maybe you happen into some kind of relationship, or you look to adapt to this world of dating apps and hook-ups and you probably end up unsatisfied for a number of reasons, and that’s when someone turns to the manosphere.
As a guy who luckily only had to deal with the shitty realm of PUA in the early 2000s, I will say that typically it’s not a bike crash that gets you in the road. It’s more like you stumble across some con man who says he can “pick up any girl he wants and he’ll show you how!” So being a young impressionable male you try the advice and it usually doesn’t work. That leads (me at least) down the path of misogyny and “nice-guy ness” (I’m very sorry, I’m better now), and bada boom you’ve got yourself a roganite.
Because these men are insecure in one way or another. Even though many of them are privileged and have good looks, it’s still not enough for them. They’re always looking to prove themselves to people who don’t care about them, and impress people they don’t like.
For me, the reason it is hard out there is because I am super careful when trying to pick someone up and they end up mistaking my pickup lines for friendly banter and I end up getting friendzoned.
Plus I am super choosy myself and take long to crush on someone and then take super long to get over a crush. (o﹏o)
But I agree that listening to toxic males like Tate will likely not make it easier.
The Friendzone doesn’t exist, you’re just not compatible together romantically and you made a friend.
Best way I’ve heard it.
Friendzone is bullshit, because women are not vending machines that accept nice and dispense sex.
I call it being rejected.
e: just because you don’t like being rejected doesn’t change the meaning of being “friendzoned”, you’re romantically rejected. Get over it.
Oof incel vibes strong
pharrel
But tbh it always makes it even more difficult to get over them. As I said, I do not crush that easily (like one every three years). And I really value their friendship but I never managed to find someone who is romantically compatible in 24 years (after effectively looking for 10 years).
And then society seems to expect me to make the first move but why should I even try if all I get is a circle of rejection. And all I keep hearing is “you’ll find someone eventually” but the 20s is supposed to be the time you get the most hook ups yet here I am almost halfway through and still no progress in sight.
And I see my mom slowly giving up on me as if I failed them. (I mean, she’s still loving and caring but I can see that it bothers her almost as much as it bothers me) and some of my friends even start to think I am asexual.
And every time I see couples I get so mixed up in my emotions. I am happy for them but also sad because it reminds me how lonely I am. This goes up to the point where I completely shut myself in on Valentine’s just to escape the emotional pain.
And people tell me how “things will get better” but they started telling me in 2018 and things haven’t changed a bit since then. Even worse I think that the competition is gaining experience whilst I just stay on 0 which is even more frustrating.
And I am constantly in conflict with myself if I should lower my standards (which seems impossible to lower them further without ending in a toxic relationship or something I am just not feeling) or just stay single (which doesn’t solve my problem)…
The up side is that apart from that my life is actually quite nice so please don’t worry about me too much I’m still doing fine and I got professional help (which just hasn’t really given me any helpful answers to my problem apart from that things will eventually turn out)…
In fact, I feel conflicted writing this. I don’t want pity (as I said, I am fine apart from what I’ve just explained) but at the same time I really needed to vent
I think the tons of hook ups in the twenties thing is because most people don’t really know what they want and if someone will lead to a toxic relationship. They have to figure that out by trying out a bunch of things that end up being totally wrong for them. You sound like you have a really solid idea of who would make a good partner for you. It takes most people much longer than their early-mid twenties to find that relationship.
If it’s really bothering you, maybe try out the relationships you think won’t work, just to confirm that you’re right about what you want.
Tysm for your reply & advice. I try not to think about it but sometimes it gets stirred up but 9 out of 10 days I’m trying to see the positives like not having the risk of going through a break-up whilst studying & working. ^^
I made it two paragraphs in, you need to talk to someone about your emotions.
You may think that you’re not showing this negativity and sadness on the surface, but I can guarantee your potential partners are picking up on it immediately.
You can’t build a successful relationship without starting from a good place. You’re starting from a bad place with negative expectations each time.
Until you address the only constant (your emotions and negative self-image) in this cycle of rejection as you call it, you’ll never succeed in a relationship.
Thank you for your input ^^
I’m usually a lot more positive but sometimes things happen (usually stress related) that emotionally stir up those kinds of emotions in me. I have consulted professional help and I am thinking about taking the time to do so again.
As mentioned in my second last paragraph I am feeling extremely fine usually, because apart from that I cannot really complain.
I usually try not to think about it and see the positives like not having to deal with a break up during exam time or something. But this is also why I sometimes feel even more conflicted because I know that it’s just not the right time for lovesickness.
“Too choosey!” I cry; oblivious to several womens’ advances.
Very obvious
lol as though they’d use the word “woman” in this sentence
FEMOIDS
wait come back femoids why do you run from thee
Have you been on Reddit lately? Every post has about 50% of comments that are incel type statements just talking about how they’ll be forever alone, they have no good traits, etc. it’s fucking pathetic
Have you been on Reddit lately?
No and for the reasons you stated!
Yep, I don’t recommend it. I work in IT so a lot of googling leads me back there and I catch a post or two while there and it’s sad.
Using incel in a sentence immediately disqualifies you from any rational discussion.
Hello, incel!
Immediately disqualifying someone based on their use of a single word is instant proof that whatever you say is bullshit. Bravo.
Are you going to find someone using the n word worthy of your intellectual engagement? I doubt it.
You have my permission to shut the fuck up now. You’re just spiraling at this point.
Aye aye captain leg beard I bow to your superior gender.
Have you stopped being a virgin yet, neckbeard?
Man some parts of this thread got weird
What the fuck happened here
