MAGAts = Neo-Nazis + Fascists.
Although by some coincidence, the people we call fascist tend to spend alot of their time wishing alot of harm on all sorts of people they hate.
Am I becoming fascist?
Do other ethnic groups fill you with a mix of fear and hatred? Are you more comfortable being told what to do and think? Do you idolize the Military? Does “the enemy” seem both weak and strong to you?
Don’t forget the biggest indicator of a fascist:
“Are you not willing to call trans people what they want you to call them?”
Trans people are one of the easy out groups to vilify though that’s not exclusive to fascism
The only good fascist is a very dead fascist.
I was thinking that another exception would be those who open their eyes and leave it behind, but then they are no longer fascists. So you could say their old fascist self is essentially dead too.
So while I do prefer this method as some ex-fascists may turn into anti-fascist advocates, and we can always use more help against fascism, it still doesn’t really counter the adage.
I agree that people can (and hopefully do) change their mindset in regards to fascism. Those that do may turn out as you mentioned, advocating against it.
I just don’t have faith anymore in that happening anytime soon (although I really hope people see what’s going on and change it).
Also my original message is a title of a song by Propaghandi. I would recommend it if you’re into more hardcore-esque punk.
I’m still hoping and doing what little I can in the meantime.
If you look like a fascist and talk like a fascist and act like a fascist you are probably a freaking fascist and that’s the way people are going to deal with you until you give them evidence to the contrary.
Let me start by saying I’m 100% against fascism, but… we do have a terminology problem. The left overall has a messaging problem, “Oh Black lives matter, so that means White lives don’t?!?” Words do matter, but it’s because they matter that we have a problem. The left seems to ebb and flow on vibes (“Just because we say Black lives matter doesn’t mean other people’s lives don’t”) while the right seems so much more literal, but the subtext is maybe even more implied. For example, they might say “They [people not like us] are taking our jobs,” but what they really mean is that they are taking the jobs we want (office jobs, trade jobs, etc), but we don’t mind them working the jobs we don’t want (basic construction, farm hands, etc), all the while their vibe is wrong and that’s not really happening.
When you call someone or something fascist they probably won’t believe you because fascism equals Nazis which equals antisemitism in most of the common people’s view. I’ll assume that anyone who has found their way to Lemmy probably understands the difference, but at the same time many of this platform don’t seem able to understand that the common person doesn’t know the difference.
There is a big difference between systemic racism vs open bigotry. A bigot is much harder to turn from racism than a person who grew up in systemic racism. It still might take decades to turn someone who is systemically racist, but a bigot will likely take longer. The same applies to a fascist; like a systemic racist they might not understand that they are racist or what racism even is. Education or experience are the two avenues people escape those avenues, but it’s especially hard if you’re doing it alone and if you feel attacked by the terminology.
Fascist = Nazi = Jew hater
“Well, I don’t hate jews, I’m not a Nazi, so I’m not a fascist” -common Fascist
I’ve had plenty of discussions with Conservatives where I took the discussion to a rich vs poor direction or a a personal rights vs governed rights direction and they suddenly become liberals without acknowledging it.
Honestly it’s the same hurdle that the left has had for decades, just because you’re a leftist doesn’t mean you love Stalin and Mao. Messaging is important, one of the most recent persons to break that mold was Bernie Sanders who made it at least semi acceptable to be a Democratic Socialist.
Yes, the neoliberals have a very difficult time coming up with effective names for things.
It’s a problem with tribalism where they’re used to people on their side giving them less scrutiny.
fuck that. I wish harm on fascists. lots of it. so much harm that other fascists are scared to even be associated with the word.
That’s step two or three, for sure. But the point being made is fascist isn’t a word that can be applied to anyone and everyone (setting aside the 2¢ insult version) - it is a specific political ideology that one earns by their words and actions.
Unfortunately it is also complex to diagnose, particularly in early stages, especially as intelligent budding fascists will deliberately evade the formal definitions while still finding ways to accomplish similar effects.
But yes - there’s also cases where fascists clearly and obviously are doing fascist things, and need to be stopped immediately, please feel free to give them a proper knuckle sandwich (or an appropriate grade of violence as the situation warrants)
The only good nazi is a dead nazi.
Just be more careful than Santa. He only checks his list twice cause the worst punishment he gives is a lump of coal. The guillotine is a lot more absolute in its punishment.
Buy an ad.
Get a life
Sir that is Cody’s Showdy and he is a srs journalist not a shitposter
This was a very good episode.
We sit at the feet of Warmbo, he shall bless us with his corn cream…
Corned cream. It’s cream that goes through a Corning process. The cream itself is not corn based.
But I do wish harm on fascists…
Generally, the people who claim the meaning has changed or been watered down are fascists or their sympathizers or prescriptivists that fail to understand how language evolves. Watch them come out of the woodwork to explain how nobody is a nazi because the National Socialist party doesn’t exist anymore. Buncha stupid fucking bastards.
They’re not literally gassing people, so they can’t be nazis. It’s only after the fact we get to ask who could have seen this coming.
You know, like they practice with school shootings every day. Desensitization is a big part.
Correct.
Fascism has always included people who call transwomen men. That’s nothing new.
A dead giveaway is when they start throwing around the word ‘nuance.’
It must be in the script they’re all taught, because every closet fascist or astroturfer loves defending fascist policies and actions with “nuance.”
“Tyranny is the deliberate removal of nuance”
-Albert Maysles
Oh spare me. We’re talking about people supporting white supremacy as “nuanced” policy.
I won’t spare you, but you feel free to keep talking about whatever you want
But it has been watered down. Its been watered down by all the culture war weirdos who claim everyone who doesnt agree with them, is a nazi and fascist. And its not just the left aiming at the right, its fucking everyone. Dont like video game? You must be a fascist. Dont like a movie? You must be a nazi!
Its like “paedo”. That one lost all meaning as well. Even going so far as to label dating 25 year olds “paedo behaviour”. Social media, if it does nothing else, totally ruins the meaning of words in favour of gaining worthless internet up arrows by saying popular thing over and over and over and over again.
For the first: those are just idiots being idiots. The word isn’t watered down by idiots usage. The word still means the same things. It just means the population around you that believes this is fascist adjacent and an idiot.
Again hard disagree. It still means diddling kids. There just more idiots around and are more vocal.
Well it’s like the word racist, it still has its connotation, but since it’s been overused so much it loses a lot of the impact that word originally had.
The other thing watering it down does is make it easier for actual racists, fascists or paedos to be more open about it and openly embrace it. After all, if an entire group is calling you a racist for multiple years, why not embrace that term?
A word is watered down when it is used to describe anything and everything. And in case you missed it, we are surrounded by idiots being idiots and doing just that.
I don’t call them Nazis because I dislike them, I dislike them because they’re Nazis.
No they are fascists, Nazi was the shorthand for Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei (NSDAP), the first 4 letters.
Fascism gets its name from Italy, Mussolini’s Fascist Party, but it is the name for the political ideology as a whole, there is no Nazism and Americans being called Nazis is kinda weird, imagine if the scenario was flipped and you called german fascists MAGAs.
Thanks for coming to my stickler talk.
If the situation were flipped, and Hitler was rising to power ~80 years after we had a massive war to take out MAGA fascists, then yeah I think people would refer to them as “MAGA”, at least at first.
Nazi
meansrefers to National Socialist, but at this point in history, it can also just refer to political movements that are fascist and Nazi-like. The meanings of words shift over time.Edit: Fixed to appease a pedant.
Nazi doesn’t mean national socialist, as I said it’s literally just the first 4 letters, a shorthand a nickname, American version for Republicans would be Repu/Repus.
Lots of people I have seen that think it’s Nazi because the Sozialistische has the Zi, it’s nonsense, Nazional is how germans pronounce National, hence it’s shortened to Nazi.
Nazi doesn’t mean national socialist
Ridiculously pedantic. Come on.
You are confusing National Socialism with Leftist-Nationalism
The reason Hitler added Social to their party name was because it was political suicide not to, not because they where socialists.
I was quoting the person above me. Read the chain again, I’m well aware of what Nazi means.
Sorry indeed I misplaced my reply
I mean, so was my first comment, not sure what you expected 😃
IMO it’s more offensive to call MAGAs a Nazi. And I’m certainly looking for maximum effect. I couldn’t care less about the etymology of Nazi.
I call them Repubs at this point because they don’t want to say things like “Democratic politicians” opting instead for “Democrat politicians” because they’re worried democratic sounds too good.
I think republican sounds too good. They don’t want a republic, they want a tyrant.
So, tyrannist? Hmm that’s not catchy. Maybe just autocrat but that doesn’t contain the root of the word tyrannus. Best I got for ya.
Tyranids?🤷♂️
Nah I’ll stick with repubs
That works for me dude.
How about nationalist?
I don’t live in America, and many people here actually do use MAGA or Trumpism to describe the local right wing people and parties because they are largely just copying America…
What do you call people who wear red and black swastikas and say heil Hitler while doing a salute typical of the Nazi party?
assholes.
Lazy and derivative
Romans?
imagine if the scenario was flipped and you called german fascists MAGAs.
It’s semantics. The German and American fascists all pull from the same ideological and rhetorical playbook.
Veneration of the national security state. Zealous religious orthodoxy. Obsession with loyalty oaths and ethnicity sorting. Reflexive xenophobia. Institutionalized quackery.
It’s all the same shit. Same as Apartheid Africa. Same as Kuomanting China. Same as Pinochet’s Chile and Milei’s Argentina.
Nazi is short for Nationalsozialist though. The party wasn’t called Nazi, the members were.
It was and is literally called the Nazi Party https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Party
The Nazi Party,[b] officially the National Socialist German Workers’ Party
I am German. We don’t call it that. Nobody says Nazipartei, it’s NSDAP. Nazi Party is an English expression and has nothing to do with the etymology of the word Nazi.
Nazi is short for Nationalsozialist. https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi (the english version of this article points to the ideology of nazism, the original is about the term. Use a translator if you’re interested.)
It was coined in the 1920s and it’s not an American term. You call the party Nazi Party because it was the party of the nazis, not the other way around.
I stand corrected then
Imagine gatekeeping nazis.
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I do not want to be seen as defending fascists or being obscurantist but I regularly encounter normal people who literally never learned how to identify a fascist. To them, it vaguely means authoritarian and imperialistic and deploying it in conversations within an american context seems unnecessarily inflammatory. The average person has neither the time nor the inclination be as plugged into politics as we are. Words actually do mean things…just different things to different people.
THIS. I don’t install social networking apps on my phone (except for Voyager, somewhat recently, if that counts). I tend to find these conversations somewhat hard to follow, because it seems like different people use different versions of the same word… Or maybe the definitions evolve too quickly for those who don’t follow it very closely. Idk, I haven’t really narrowed it down yet.
But yeah… I honestly don’t really know how to identify a fascist. I think it has something to do with right-wing authoritarianism, but I’m not sure I’ve personally met any right-wing authoritarians, so I’m probably missing something.
And yes, I have attempted to look it up. The results were not very helpful. I assume it’s similar to looking up what Nazis were – quite different from how people use the word now.
Thank you for understanding “normal people.” 🙈
Ppl are constantly glued to their phones. They’re just lazy or have their head in the sand if they don’t pay attention to politics.
Have you seen people’s algorithmic bubbles? The corporations that control these algorithms do not want to increase access to accurate and helpful information. Blaming millions of people instead of the systems that keep them oppressed is morally questionable, strategically ineffective, and psychologically isolating.
Well considering there’s plenty of documentaries, case studies, and articles written about how poisonous social media and algorithms are i dont have much sympathy for those who don’t look into it when we live in an age were information on EVERYTHING EVER WRITTEN DOWN is freely avaliable. Im not going to feel sorry because ppl rather look at cat videos and follow influencers instead of reading an article that tells them without a doubt how fucked up social media is.
It’s no different when ppl complained about tv being and idiot box. Just because YOU will watch the Bachelor or Real Housewives instead of Frontline or 60 minutes doesnt mean the medium makes everyone stupid. At a certain point it becomes YOUR responsibility to be an informed citizen.
If your heart is set on finding reasons to hate everyone else, you are always going to find them but successful political movements are built on solidarity and compassion.
Solidarity with who? The part of the country that voted in that facist who dont even recognize reality. I’m not going to feel sorry for a bunch of white folks and latinos who basically voted for him because brown and gay ppl were starting to get treated better. I have no compassion for bigots.
As for democrats and liberal white America they’ve constantly dropped the ball on solidarity with minorities. If its not obvious im a black dude. Black America has had PLENTY of compassion for others yet theres been practically no solidarity in return. I don’t hate everyone else. I just have absolutely zero faith in America doing the right thing. For fuck sake hippies we’re preaching peace, love, fighting for civil rights then moved to the suburbs and voted for Reagan.
I hear you but unless you already have a bullet proof political movement (the left does not), then you need to find it in your heart to look at the deplorables and find commonalities and build on them. This is the real benefit of class solidarity and economic essentialism. Our identitarian differences can be used against a movement to divide it, but we are all workers under capitalism. We all have bills. We all need to put food on the table. And yeah, securing labor rights, housing, and healthcare will not solve racism, sexism, and other bigotries BUT it will be much easier to advocate for social justice issues if people arent just fighting for survival.
The people you are angry with deserve your ire, but they are as much a product of their environments and circumstances as everyone else. Barring the rapture, they arent going anywhere so our political solutions need to include these people. There simply is not enough political power in everyone else to overturn their political relevance.
Why are you guys always telling this to brown ppl? Brown ppl didnt keep white ppl out of their unions, out of their neighborhoods, or denied them a good education. The main issue with class solidarity is trying to convince white ppl that brown and lgbtq ppl deserve the same standard of living as they do.
