The comments here ought to be fun. What a shitshow we have made of this planet.
Talk about a poisoned gift…
Nobody wants gifts from Israel, but Ukraine desperately needs the hardware.
Damned if they do, damned if they don’t…This is not a “poisoned gift”. I would argue it’s inappropriate to use the term in this context.
We don’t have any other option. Considering the situation it would be absurd to not accept the Patriot systems. Hopefully the PAC-2’s will be upgraded by the Americans to newer variants to better deal will “regular” ballistic missiles and the Kh-47M2 Kinzhal hypersonic missiles.
For real, who can judge them for this
Anyone taking a principled stance against genocide will. Sorry, but Ukraine needs to find another way than to become indebted to a fascist regime like Israel.
They are actively under fire from fascists, and the rest of the world is failing to step up and help. They need what they can get.
This is extremely cursed and it will definitely have strings attached that no one wants, but in a question of survival vs not, I don’t blame them one bit. This is a decision centered around “we have to survive today to solve this problem tomorrow”.
Yes, that’s why it’s potentially poison. Ukraine had no other option than to take it. No one will blame them.
I still don’t see how transfer of Patriot systems from Israel is akin to taking a poisoned gift. In context of the idiom, this doesn’t make sense.
They are just buying Ukranian support for their warcrimes. Damned if you don’t, damned if you do.
What do you mean by “Ukrainian support for their war crimes”? Be clear and specific.
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[1] is not valid. Anyone with modicum of critical thinking can understand the context. [2] Do you have any sources (preferably in Ukrainian) on this? You’re implying Zelenskyy is being manipulated, this is a big claim, what is the context? Zelenskyy was planning to call Netanyahu a dictator in a public manner before they provided the Patriot system? And now he changed his mind? [3] Conspiracy theory that doesn’t even make logical sense. What are they planning to blackmail Zelenskyy for?
And what does what your wrote have to do with “Ukrainians supporting their war crimes”. Your points are just random, extremely low effort musings and conspiracy theories.
As a finn, I very much want “gifts” from Israel. Their air defence systems are amazing, and they have very nice looking defence capabilities against drones. Which seems to be a growing risk from Russia.
I hope nobody is surprised to hear that I value the people of Finland over the people of palestine.
Yeah well, Finland has a tradition of shamelessly using unsavory regimes to keep the Russians at bay.
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Netanyahu is very friendly with Putin. I don’t know if I would trust that gift personally.
I expect that that means that Israel isn’t too worried about incoming ballistic missiles from Iran at this point, or they’d probably be hanging onto it.
More likely that the batteries are outdated for their standards.
and/or they want field data from the real world conditions they’re being used in.
The PAC2 will be upgraded by the Americans before being sent to Ukraine.
Don’t get me wrong, America is of course leveraging our data on take down of russian missile (and literally everything else related to the russian military) and this data is shared with Israel
There is no need to make conspiracy theories, this was already happening even before Ukraine recieved the first upgraded Israeli PAC2 Patriot system.
Sadly what it really means is that we are sending them new ones. I really hope Europe will stop all trade with Israel.
Israel is a logical ally to Ukraine because both are being attacked by an evil entity using fake justification. The more nations are acting both against Russia and radical Islam, the better. To have a nation as advanced as Israel on the right side on this is a very good thing.
Is that how you see the genocide in Gaza? That Israel is being “attacked by evil entity with fake justification”?
It’s definitely not “the genocide”. I don’t think it’s even “a genocide”. As clarification, this is an example of what I think qualifies as a genocide: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_genocide and I am aware that UN has far far less stringent definitions. I don’t think we should be watering down serious concepts like UN is doing there.
But yes, that’s how I view Israel’s justification for the Gaza War. Obviously Russia’s justification for invading Ukraine is even more ludicrous than Hamas’s justification for terrorizing and invading Israel regurarily, but it’s not exactly sane either.
Hamas is obviously the greater evil in about the same way as Nazis were obviously the greater evil in Europe in WW2. Beating them was also extremely harsh for german civilians sometimes. Dresden firebombings killed 25 000 people in a single bombing raid, in a population of about 600 000 people. Relatively speaking about as many deaths in that one day than total in Gaza since October 7 2023.
Was it necessary? I cannot tell definitely, but probably not all of it was and probably most of it was.
You are a horrible human being and I hope hell is real.
There aren’t conflicting definitions of what genocide is, where did you pull that “fact” from? Genocide is a systematic killing of people, as per your own link. And that’s exactly what Israel is doing. No?
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First, I’m just stating facts that you are a horrible person, if you feel insulted it’s on you.
Second, I made a very valid argument, but your reading comprehension is really bad. I will repeat it just for you:
There aren’t conflicting definitions of what genocide is, where did you pull that “fact” from? Genocide is a systematic killing of people
So can you tell what are those different definitions of genocide that you mentioned??
Sure, a watered down definitions. Like the Nazi watered down the definition of humanity to exclude minority groups (like the Jews) to make it “OK” to kill them.
The UN definition of genocide is a commonly agreed definition by the international community, to not only encompass the clear genocides, like WW2 genocide or the Rwanda one, but also more pernicious way of committing genocide, like Israel is currently doing. And Israel is part of the UN, they had a say in that definition.
Genocide is about denying a group their humanity, by robbing them of their lives (as an example through indiscriminate bombardment), famine, or simply killing them at random for being on the wrong side of the road (which, of course, change every other day).
Other means are by trying to destroy their culture (as an example Ukraine invaded land where every trace of their culture is being erased), which Isreal does by removing their “unwanted population” way of life (robbing their land in Palestine, building roads made to prevent them from being able to reach their usual pastures).The current Israeli government doesn’t even hide their ambition. They want all for Palestine land, without the Palestinian that lives there for centuries. There are no other way to achieve that than genocide, be it brutal, like the final solution, or insidious, like the Russification of the Donbas. Israel is in between. Brutal, but disguised enough to not create on outright reaction from the global community. A slow but steady murder of a population, while distracting other with claims of terrorism (which are partiality correct), and antisemitism (which, once again, are sometime correct, but very rarely lately).
But the only way to prove or disprove any of those side would be for journalist to go and see by themselves. Which is steadily being denied by no other than the Israeli government.
So the only ones that can report on what happen are either the locals, which Israel take good care of silencing, or the IDF, which of course tells everyone to go look elsewhere.In conclusion, both side are as evil as the other. Which is why I’d support none of them. But there are innocent populations in between, that all have the right to live a happy and peaceful life. Those are the people I’d support, not the living trash that govern both.
Ootko sä oikeasti tosissasi? Vaikutat trollilta tai muuten vaan toopelta. Kyse ei ole vuosikymmeniin ollut mistään “sodasta” vaan ihan etnisestä puhdistuksesta. Taidat hakea kommenteillasi vain huomiota ja vastakkainasettelua
Israel has more in common with Russia than Ukraine.
They are the aggressor. Palestinians are just defending themselves while living in the largest open-air prison on earth.
Fuck zionists and their simps. 9/11 happened specifically because of US support of Israel.
It’s not worth it.
Sure. I just think that at some point after Israel left Gaza the last time in 2005, there was a long window of opportunity for gazans and palestinians to make everything better, but they totally failed to do so. Instead, they specifically voted in to power a terrorist organization who for the next almost 20 years did pretty much nothing except prepare to attack Israel.
There are reasons why prisons are made.
Israel has never removed itself from Palestine. Israel has been occupying legally recognized Palestinian territory for decades, and have used every excuse to continue to take more.
This is the most illogical and ahistorical shit I’ve read all day. The only way you can frame the genocide of the Palestinians as defense against an evil entity is if you want to arbitrarily start history at a point decades after Israel began killing and displacing millions of people. That’s the same sort of intellectual dishonesty that Russia has used to fabricate historical rationalizations for their invasion.
Yeah, them being pissed at Russia and then backing the Middle Eastern equivalent of Russia is some serious cognitive dissonance shit
That country is providing them with air defense missiles, so… (yes, it’s a shit situation)
Are you talking about nazi “state” of israel? They’re one of the r asons for radical islam. Them and fucking USA. And brittish colonial past.
I’ve been an outraged and outspoken supporter of Ukraine since before they were invaded. But, this is fucked. Zelensky can get all-the-way fucked if he’s going to ally with the war criminals like this.
If you’re in the United States, there’s a non-0 chance you didn’t vote for Kamala because of whatever bullshit Stance you have
Even in September 2025 your still saying shit like this? Kamala, Biden, Obama are the same establishment as trump, Bush and Reagan. You have to genuinely stupid if you think Kamala would have ended the genocide and saved Ukraine
Did you get enough gruel, are they going to send you back to the Gulag, if you don’t post enough
I literally cannot understand whatever you are trying to say here.
How is Zelenskyy allying with Netanyahu?
We are getting their older Patriot systems (that are very much needed, you’ll change your tune when the building across the street from you gets hit with a Shahed), what do you expect Zelenskyy to do, say “No!”?
I will speculate Zelenskyy’s opinion of Netanyahu is far closer to your own, but unless you are willing to provide x8 Patriot missile systems, you are not in a position to judge.
Are you suggesting that Israel is getting nothing in return for this? At a bare minimum, Israel is purchasing support for their bloodthirsty expansionist project. Sorry, but I do expect Ukraine to say no. I don’t care what Zelensky’s (or any other leader’s) personal opinion is about anything. The only thing that matters is their actions. Providing even passive support for evil, like that personified by Israel, makes it more likely that nations will behave the way that Russia has against Ukraine. Find another way.
They probably do that in the hopes that it brings them diplomatic points from all the countries that are calling their genocide unacceptable recently.
No matter the reason, Ukraine needs every help it can get. They cannot denounce or fight against what’s happening in Gaza if they’ve been annexed by Russia.
What is Israel getting in return from Ukraine for the Patriot system? Cite your sources.
What do you mean by “support for their bloodthirsty expansionist project”? Be specific.
What do you mean by providing passive support? What passive support is being providing? Zelenskyy shaking hands with Netenyahu? Him not shaking hands with Netenyahu will force Israel stop to killing civilians in Gaza?
I’ve been up for 3 hour since ~ 6 am because of today’s attack by the russians (after waking up twice due to Shaheds and then a Kinzhal ballistic missile warning). You believe we should not be able counter russian bombings? Just say “No!” to additional air defense systems? Do you even think about what you are writing?
How is refusal to accept the Patriot systems going to help the Palestinians?
Find another way? What does that mean? Be clear and specific!
Your have a wrapped and almost comically impractical view of the world. I can guarantee you, this type of attitude is not going to help stop the current horrors happening in Gaza and the broader genocidal imperialism of Israel.
No, they don’t think about what they’re posting because they live in the safety of a place not under constant attack and genocide OR because they are themselves a Russian troll trying to stoke fights. The third option is they are an unempathetic fuckwit with such privilege of safety that they cannot comprehend that shades of grey exist and survival can mean doing things you may not necessarily want to do.
They are lord farquaad levels of “some of you may die, but it’s a sacrifice I’m willing to take”. Obviously a troll or someone who should not be taken even a little bit seriously.
Any port in a storm to protect your people, it’s the indecisiveness of the US support thats done this.
Israel’s done it to piss people off it’s politics. The US could have set this up an iron dome system n Ukraine years ago.
I reject his. You’re about a half step away from articulating the rationale that Russia has used to justify its invasion of Ukraine. It’s wrong.
Accepting Patriot missiles to protect your skies is akin to organising a genocidal imperialist invasion?
Allying with a genocidal nation is a form of support for that nation and it’s genocidal project. I don’t understand why this is so difficult to accept. Or, are you taking the stance that the ends always justify the means when it comes to defense. If so, then you’re taking a stance that has been used by Hamas to justify 10/7, Israel to justify genocide, and Russia to justify invading Ukraine.
No, you are wrong.
You bring up all this flowery rhetoric and random accusations, yet when push comes to shove, you always hide from specifics.
What do you mean by allying?
How would Ukraine not accepting the Patriot systems help the Palestinians?
Be clear and specific.
Allying - to have friendly relations, to help each other, to cooperate, etc.
Is Israel being friendly, helping and cooperating with Ukraine? Yes.
Is Ukraine being friendly with Israel? Yes. Is Ukraine cooperating with Israel? Yes. Is Ukraine helping Israel? To the extent that we know what happening, they are at least lending legitimacy to the Israeli regime. That helps them given that they are facing mounting international pressure, ICJ charges, and cratering public support. The agreement also implies that Ukraine will owe something to Israel at some point. That amounts to a promise to help them, somehow. It’s also very reasonable to speculate that Israel has some repayment arranged behind the scenes, although we can only speculate at this point.
Am I holding Ukraine to a high moral standard? Yes. I appreciate the desperate and immediate danger to Ukraine, but this is the same standard that Ukraine and specifically Zelensky have been demanding from the international community since this started. He has rightly appealed to people’s morality and basic human sense of justice as the reason for supplying Ukraine’s defense. Working directly with a regime as comically evil, as outrageously violent, and destructive as Israel undermines all of that.
Shaking hands with a war criminal and a country involved in a genocide, also supporting said country?
I guess the British colonialists should’ve said no to the French by that standard. War is nuanced, and survival doesn’t make us picky.
But what if your survival means a genocide of another population?
How is Ukraine’s acceptance of older Patriot systems from Israel a genocide of the Palestinians?
Ridiculous logic.
Fuck off.
What do you expect Zelensky to do?
This sort of attitude is why the left doesn’t win in the west (not to mention full on tankie degeneracy, which I am not accusing you of).
So, when Ukraine is pointing out genocide from Russia (which is levels lower than the other one), they are actually saying that genocide is bad only because it’s against them, but fine when it suits them.
This is false. No one ever said anything like that. Nor are the actions done by Ukraine (or even Ukrainian society) aligned with this worldview.
The “lower level” comment is inappropriate and shows your ignorance of history.
For such a wild bullshit as they are posting, you can safely assume they are a Russian meant to sew discord
That’s true, Lemmy is unfortunately infested with degenerate tankie roaches.
Whatever word you’re using to describe them, it’s Russian, Russia has vested interest in dividing Americans against each other in every online space that they know of, side effect of not having a new leader. Every four years is Russia could mobilize against America completely and consistently using manipulation online there’s so much information out there on the Internet about Russia is doing you just have to look for it and be curious.
Americans are doing pretty good job dividing against each other even without Russia.
Yeah, everybody who doesn’t align with your view has to be a Russian.
Yes, 100% yes. Also, I’m done you
We’ll see when there are votes in UN and other bodies about Israel. I’m sure Ukraine strongly condemns Israeli genocide, as much as when they were saying not so long ago they are in the same position as Israel. One has to be extremely naïve thinking those Patriots come without strings attached.
So what are those strings? I am not saying there are or aren’t, but surely you have to be specific if you are making such claims.
Initially there was a strong level of public support for Israel because people in Ukraine saw similarities between the behaviour of Hamas and the russians (summary killings, rape, internment or civilians). Once people in Ukraine saw what Israel did to Gaza attitudes started to change.
The government and Zelenskyy can’t stand Netanyahu because he is pretty friendly with putin. You’re not on great terms with someone who is meeting with your enemy (that has tried to get you killed several times).
You do understand that Ukraine requested the Israeli Patriots as far back as October 2022, right?
Here is one example of those strings, I have no doubts there are and will be more. https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/09/1154496
As per asking me to tell you what exactly are those strings is kinda funny, isn’t it?
Why is it funny? This thread is littered with random musings and most posters aggressively refuse to refer to specifics. And generally have a comically impractical take on the issue.
What you brought up is a solid point, Ukraine abstained when it should have voted in favour (I say this as someone who votes in Ukrainian elections, pay taxes, donates etc.).
Is that it? So Ukraine voting in favour (or against Israel) would stop the killing in Gaza?
What would change if Ukraine voted for (which I would have preferred) in the Oct 2024 General Assembly vote?
