• teri@discuss.tchncs.deEnglish
    414·
    2 days ago

    I support the cause in general but: Signal is not federated at all. It may seem like a decent alternative to WhatsApp but is it really? It still falls under the same US jurisdiction. Let’s say the US gov starts agressively prosecuting dissidents and certain minorities (they already do): can and should we still use signal in this case? I don’t think so. Sadly i can’t name a much better alternative. Maybe matrix. But it has other issues.

  • DicJacobus@lemmy.worldEnglish
    382·
    2 days ago

    instead of switching ive mostly just been ditching entirely. I need less time interacting with internet people.

    literally the only thing on this list im still using is facebook messenger, for my work colleagues. and youtube. everything else ive migrated (reddit-lemmy), or abandoned and torched

  • RedSnt@feddit.dkEnglish
    24·
    2 days ago

    I was already on Mastodon by just having a Vivaldi (the chromium browser) account, and it’s just lovely I’ve spent most of the day setting up lemmy, even though I joined feddit.dk 2 years ago, it’s only just now I’m taking it seriously.
    And, while not related to the fediverse per se, I switched to linux a year ago.
    The only service that’s hard to drop/switch away from is Youtube imo.

  • Undaunted@discuss.tchncs.deEnglish
    94·
    3 days ago

    Unfortunately, the switch from YouTube to PeerTube has not worked for me so far. I can’t find a decent instance (not full of right-wing/conspiracy content) with interesting stuff that also allows me to make an account.

    • Esmoreit@lemmings.worldEnglish
      203·
      2 days ago

      Loops will be open sourced later they say.

      Is Loops open source? It will be! We plan on open sourcing the platform after it reaches a stable and easy to maintain state.

      • tempest@lemmy.caEnglish
        221·
        2 days ago

        That really is not a satisfying answer. It is incredibly nebulous and even if it did have a nice definition I guarantee most software developers will tell you a lot of software rarely reaches that state.

        I can see why they might want to avoid 1000 GitHub issues bike shedding things but they could open source the code and just not have open contribution

        • acockworkorange@mander.xyzEnglish
          4·
          2 days ago

          Sometimes you’re ashamed of the ugly hacks you cobbled together to reach MVP, and you want to fix the stuff you know you need to fix first before being thrown to the wolves. I can respect that, for a limited time.

          • EuroNutellaMan@lemmy.worldEnglish
            2·
            1 day ago

            I mean maybe but you could also just say “we did some whacky shit here help us fix it please” and let the community help you in the effort. That’s the beauty of open source. Then again they may have their reasons and frankly I’m not even interested in a TikTok like social media so w/e as long as they don’t eat up their word it’s fine.

      • potentiallynotfelix@lemmy.fishEnglish
        133·
        2 days ago

        That means very little to me. Actions speak louder than words, and it would probably help the development of loops if it was actually open source.

          • supersquirrel@sopuli.xyzEnglish
            3·
            2 days ago

            Which I think dansup should deserve our trust on this for quite a long time for doing. It isn’t empty promises if they already made Pixelfed and opensourced it.

            Like… I suppose it could be a grift, anything could but I see no reason to question their goals or motives.

        • ubergeek@lemmy.todayEnglish
          1·
          2 days ago

          For a lot of FLOSS projects, it’s common to keep the initial team small, so a product can be delivered fast, and gets opened up later.

          It’s to solve the “too many cooks” and prevent bikeshedding.

          A lot of corpo espionage is there solely to tank potential competitors, which include FLOSS projects.

  • Kalcifer@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
    1768·
    3 days ago

    Signal isn’t federated [1][2][3.1]; it’s decentralized [1][2][3.2]. Though, for all practical purposes, I would generally argue that it’s centralized.

    References
    1. Signal-Server. signalapp. Github. Published: 2025-01-31T15:34:14.000Z. Accessed: 2025-02-01T09:24Z. https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Server.
      • This is the source code for the server that Signal uses.
    2. “Signal (software)”. Wikipedia. Published: 2025-01-06T09:34Z. Accessed: 2025-02-1T09:30Z. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal_(software).
      • ¶“Architecture”. ¶“Servers”.

        Signal relies on centralized servers that are maintained by Signal Messenger. In addition to routing Signal’s messages, the servers also facilitate the discovery of contacts who are also registered Signal users and the automatic exchange of users’ public keys. […]

    3. “Reflections: The ecosystem is moving”. moxie0. Signal Blog. Published: 2016-05-10. Accessed: 2025-02-01T09:40Z. https://signal.org/blog/the-ecosystem-is-moving/.
      1. ¶5. to ¶“Stuck in time”. ¶3-6

        One of the controversial things we did with Signal early on was to build it as an unfederated service. Nothing about any of the protocols we’ve developed requires centralization; it’s entirely possible to build a federated Signal Protocol-based messenger, but I no longer believe that it is possible to build a competitive federated messenger at all. […] [interoperable protocols] [have] taken us pretty far, but it’s undeniable that once you federate your protocol, it becomes very difficult to make changes. And right now, at the application level, things that stand still don’t fare very well in a world where the ecosystem is moving. […] Early on, I thought we’d federate Signal once its velocity had subsided. Now I realize that things will probably never slow down, and if anything the velocity of the entire landscape seems to be steadily increasing.

      2. ¶“Stuck in time”. “Federation and control”. ¶6.

        An open source infrastructure for a centralized network now provides almost the same level of control as federated protocols, without giving up the ability to adapt. If a centralized provider with an open source infrastructure ever makes horrible changes, those that disagree have the software they need to run their own alternative instead. It may not be as beautiful as federation, but at this point it seems that it will have to do.

    • Lazycog@sopuli.xyzEnglish
      892·
      3 days ago

      Yeah. I love Signal but it doesn’t belong in that list. Dansup (creator of loops and pixelfed) is apparently working on “Sup” that will be a decentralized alternative to whatsapp.

        • Lazycog@sopuli.xyzEnglish
          311·
          3 days ago

          Yeah… I’m bit afraid of “kbin Ernest Effect” (not sure what a proper term is) where personal issues pile up and the sole head developer just disappears.

          Haven’t followed dansup much but from what I understand he is much more open to pull requests and listening to the community, but time will tell. Right now I appreciate and love his effort, giving, and the impact on fediverse he is brining.

          The kickstarter was a good idea.

          • ApollosArrow@lemmy.worldEnglish
            10·
            2 days ago

            Given that I’ve waited 3 weeks to join his smaller instance of pixelfed.art, I can tell things are already piling up. I am hoping the kickstarter does help.

        • Lazycog@sopuli.xyzEnglish
          5·
          3 days ago

          There isn’t much information about “Sup”, but if I had to guess it could be that dansup is making sup app with XMPP(rotocol) as the messaging protocol.

          • poVoq@slrpnk.netEnglish
            6·
            2 days ago

            Originally it was supposed to be ActivityPub based, but recently they posted something about it being for XMPP, Matrix and IRC as well 🤷‍♂️ Maybe they decided to fork Pidgin 😂

            IMHO Sup. isn’t going to happen. They will have their hands more than full with Pixelfed’s new popularity and maybe Loops.

            • Lazycog@sopuli.xyzEnglish
              3·
              2 days ago

              Oh! didn’t know that, I thought activitypub can’t be used for secure messaging. Lol really hope its XMPP!

              Yeah I didn’t take it that seriously when it was announced right now. Just hope pixelfed stays afloat amidst the user flood and hope he can publish loops as open source soon!

            • chrislowles@lemm.eeEnglish
              1·
              2 days ago

              Multi-protocol would be awesome, hopefully down the line it’ll come back around to adding some basic AP integration.

      • Kalcifer@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
        474·
        3 days ago

        My comment wasn’t protesting the use of Signal; it was rather clarifying the misinformation in OP’s post — ie misinformation that Signal is a federated service.

        • apex32@lemmy.worldEnglish
          6·
          3 days ago

          I wish Boost understood the collapsible spoilers.

          On my client, it’s all expanded and I see all the formatting characters. It looks/works great in a browser though.

          • Kalcifer@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
            1·
            2 days ago

            I wish Boost understood the collapsible spoilers.

            On my client, it’s all expanded and I see all the formatting characters.

            Ah dang, that’s good to know (though I’m not sure what to do as an alternative) — I was unaware that the collapsible spoilers weren’t supported on Boost. I guess that means that Lemmy’s markdown formatting hasn’t entirely been standardized across the service. I personally have encountered some inconsistency on the Tesseract UI with CommonMark Autolink [2] formatting where the autolinks don’t even render [1].

            I recommend reporting this to the Boost devs to improve Markdown feature compatibility between them and the Lemmy UI.

            References
            1. “Kalcifer” @[email protected]. To: [“Happy #GlobalSwitchDay”. @[email protected]. “Fediverse” [email protected]. Tesseract. sh.itjust.works. Published: 2025-02-01T07:08:40Z. Accessed: 2025-02-02T04:40Z. https://tesh.itjust.works/post/sh.itjust.works/32046509.]. Published: 2025-02-01T09:20:14Z. Accessed: 2025-02-02T04:42Z. https://sh.itjust.works/post/32046509/16425699.
              • Raw Text:
                Signal isn't federated ^[1][2][3.1]^; it's decentralized ^[1][2][3.2]^. Though, for all practical purposes, I would generally argue that it's centralized. 

::: spoiler References
1. Signal-Server. signalapp. Github. Published: 2025-01-31T15:34:14.000Z. Accessed: 2025-02-01T09:24Z. <https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Server>.
   - This is the source code for the server that Signal uses.
2. "Signal (software)". Wikipedia. Published: 2025-01-06T09:34Z. Accessed: 2025-02-1T09:30Z. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal_(software)>.
   - ¶"Architecture". ¶"Servers".
     > Signal relies on centralized servers that are maintained by Signal Messenger. In addition to routing Signal's messages, the servers also facilitate the discovery of contacts who are also registered Signal users and the automatic exchange of users' public keys. […]
3. "Reflections: The ecosystem is moving". moxie0. Signal Blog. Published: 2016-05-10. Accessed: 2025-02-01T09:40Z.  <https://signal.org/blog/the-ecosystem-is-moving/>.
   1. ¶5. to ¶"Stuck in time". ¶3-6
      > One of the controversial things we did with Signal early on was to build it as an unfederated service. Nothing about any of the protocols we’ve developed requires centralization; it’s entirely possible to build a federated Signal Protocol-based messenger, but I no longer believe that it is possible to build a competitive federated messenger at all. […] [interoperable protocols] [have] taken us pretty far, but it’s undeniable that once you federate your protocol, it becomes very difficult to make changes. And right now, at the application level, things that stand still don’t fare very well in a world where the ecosystem is moving. […] Early on, I thought we’d federate Signal once its velocity had subsided. Now I realize that things will probably never slow down, and if anything the velocity of the entire landscape seems to be steadily increasing.
   2. ¶"Stuck in time". "Federation and control". ¶6.
      > An open source infrastructure for a centralized network now provides almost the same level of control as federated protocols, without giving up the ability to adapt. If a centralized provider with an open source infrastructure ever makes horrible changes, those that disagree have the software they need to run their own alternative instead. It may not be as beautiful as federation, but at this point it seems that it will have to do.
:::
                • Rendered:

                • In the rendered text there are no links; however, there should be links at the end, as is shown by the CommonMark autolinks in the raw text.
            2. “CommonMark Spec”. John MacFarlane. CommonMark. Version: 0.31.2. Published: 2024-01-28. Accessed: 2025-02-02T04:51Z. https://spec.commonmark.org/0.31.2/#uri-autolink.
              • §6.5 “Autolinks”. ¶2.

                A URI autolink consists of <, followed by an absolute URI followed by >. It is parsed as a link to the URI, with the URI as the link’s label.

            • Kalcifer@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
              2·
              2 days ago

              Dang 😕. See my comment for a related response.

              I recommend reporting the bug to the Sync devs to fix their Markdown formatting to improve feature compatibility between them and the Lemmy UI.

    • jollyrogue@lemmy.mlEnglish
      6·
      2 days ago

      Yeah, Moxie has openly shot down the idea of adding federation to Signal, and I’ve never heard them claim Signal was decentralized.

      Matrix is federated, distributed, and decentralized.

      XMPP is federated and decentralized.

        • jollyrogue@lemmy.mlEnglish
          2·
          2 days ago

          Matrix servers keep a copy of any remote room an account on the server has joined, and it’s possible to recreate a room from the copies held on different servers. There are more details I don’t remember, but at a high level that’s how it’s distributed.

          Storing messages of remote rooms in addition to local rooms is why people complain about the storage requirements of Matrix servers. They don’t realize it’s distributed.

    • namingthingsiseasy@programming.devEnglish
      6·
      2 days ago

      but I no longer believe that it is possible to build a competitive federated messenger at all.

      The fact that we have a telephone system that works with separate providers contradicts this sentiment. If I want to pick up the phone and talk to my cousin’s puppy in New Zealand, I can do that without creating an account on his provider’s service.

      I don’t understand why we’ve forgotten this as a society. Yes, it was difficult to upgrade the phone systems over the past century, but it’s worth it in my opinion. I really wish we’d start seeing government regulation that says “you should be able to talk to someone on a service without having to create an account on said service.” I thought the DMA would do this, but sadly, Whatsapp still requires an account to talk to people using that service. Very disappointing.

      • jollyrogue@lemmy.mlEnglish
        1·
        1 day ago

        How is the puppy?

        As for interoperability between services… Monetization of surveillance data. The social media companies are Ad companies, and they make their money surveilling people and selling access. It’s harder to build an accurate model of a person when only pieces of data is available, and they need to have more data then the other Ad tech companies they’re competing with.

    • amzd@lemmy.worldEnglish
      112·
      3 days ago

      it’s decentralized

      No it’s not. From literally your own comment:

      Signal relies on centralized servers

      For a decentralized messenger use https://delta.chat/

      • Kalcifer@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
        211·
        3 days ago

        it’s decentralized

        No it’s not. From literally your own comment:

        Signal relies on centralized servers

        I was using “decentralized” to mean that there isn’t centralized control over ownership of the service in general — eg anyone can spin up their own server (impractical, imo, pushing it more towards being centralized) and people can use it (making it decentralized, imo (Please correct me if I am wrong, but I do think my usage of the term is appropriate in this way.)), but people who use that server can only communicate with that server (making it not federated). But yes it could still be said to be centralized in that it operates on a client-server model [1].

        This is more an argument of definitions, though. I’m not trying to claim anything in bad faith.

        References
        1. Signal-Server. signalapp. Github. Published: 2025-01-31T15:34:14.000Z. Accessed: 2025-02-01T09:24Z. https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Server.
          • This is the source code for the server that Signal uses.
        • amzd@lemmy.worldEnglish
          82·
          3 days ago

          That’s just open source, not decentralized. I can’t find a definition of decentralization that would even make it vague. From Wikipedia:

          Decentralization is the process by which the activities of an organization, particularly those related to planning and decision-making, are distributed or delegated away from a central, authoritative location or group and given to smaller factions within it.

          Signal has a central authoritative server and to use it with any other server you have to modify the source code.

          • Kalcifer@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
            71·
            2 days ago

            Decentralization is the process by which the activities of an organization, particularly those related to planning and decision-making, are distributed or delegated away from a central, authoritative location or group and given to smaller factions within

            Imo this fits my usage of the term — Signal can be broken up into many isolated servers [1] all offering the same service.

            References
            1. Signal-Server. signalapp. Github. Published: 2025-01-31T15:34:14.000Z. Accessed: 2025-02-01T09:24Z. https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Server.
              • This is the source code for the server that Signal uses.
          • Kalcifer@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
            4·
            3 days ago

            That’s just open source, not decentralized.

            Depending on exactly how said open source development is occuring, I could argue that open source development is an example of decentralization. It may even be an example of federation (all depending on licensing and development medium imo).

    • spaduf@slrpnk.netEnglish
      5·
      2 days ago

      Folks should also check out neodb.social . it’s good reads, letterboxd, and steam reviews all in one.

      • BruisedMoose@piefed.socialEnglish
        1·
        1 day ago

        I’ve been looking for something to track my physical book, music, and game collections. An instance of this might work nicely. Thanks!

    • LoganNineFingers@lemmy.caEnglish
      3·
      3 days ago

      It could be but I find the android app buggy (this month I’ve been using bookwyrm, GR, Open Reads, and The Story Graph to compare them all and still nothing is as smooth as GR. Plus bookwyrm has no apple app. I love where Bookwyrm is going but right now the switch is not the best