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cross-posted from: https://lemmy.ml/post/21396569
Moira Donegan
Mon 14 Oct 2024 06.07 EDT
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I know that the hold that Israel (and the military industrial complex) has on both major political parties is money, Money, MONEY. But there has got to be a breaking point. I thought the breaking point would be the indiscriminate slaughter of innocent children, but alas.
I mean, I will still vote for Harris, because I’m not stupid. I know the alternative is far worse. But I’d rather not have innocent blood on my hands after I fill out that ballot.
If you (or anyone else) will never change your vote about it, why would they adjust their position?
You’ve given them no downside to continuing to support genocide other than the weight of thousands of innocent dead on their consciences. It should be fairly obvious how much that affects them.
Unfortunately, there is a downside to allowing Trump to win. It’s the trolly problem and yes I will help pull the lever that kills people to keep even more people from dying.
Then it’s not a single lever pull - it’s a sum of lever pulls over a long time period.
Democrats already started the second genocide in Lebanon.
And soon a war with Iran.
All the “greater evils” of Trump will have been fulfilled by democrats before Trump even become president
That’s just the evil abroad. Trump welcomes evil right here at home.
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Since when?
Following polls, they would have an upside of about a 6 point boost if they changed on policy. Which is certainly significant with the race as close as it is.
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Our first matchup tested a Democrat and a Republican who “both agree with Israel’s current approach to the conflict in Gaza”. In this case, the generic candidates tied 44–44. The second matchup saw the same Republican facing a Democrat supporting “an immediate ceasefire and a halt of military aid and arms sales to Israel”. Interestingly, the Democrat led 49–43, with Independents and 2020 non-voters driving the bulk of this shift.
- Split Ticket (July 2024)
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In Pennsylvania, 34% of respondents said they would be more likely to vote for the Democratic nominee if the nominee vowed to withhold weapons to Israel, compared to 7% who said they would be less likely. The rest said it would make no difference. In Arizona, 35% said they’d be more likely, while 5% would be less likely. And in Georgia, 39% said they’d be more likely, also compared to 5% who would be less likely.
- New Poll Suggests Gaza Ceasefire and Arms Embargo Would Help Dems with Swing State Voters (Full YouGov Report) (May 2024)
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- Data For Progress Poll (May 2024)
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Majorities of Democrats (67%) and Independents (55%) believe the US should either end support for Israel’s war effort or make that support conditional on a ceasefire. Only 8% of Democrats but 42% of Republicans think the US must support Israel unconditionally.
Republicans and Independents most often point to immigration as one of Biden’s top foreign policy failures. Democrats most often select the US response to the war in Gaza.
What are we going to change our vote to? Only two parties can win this year (let’s change that) and the other option is worse on this issue.
I’ll vote for someone who is vocally and demonstrably anti-genocide. If that’s neither of the main parties’ candidates that’s their problem.
I will not vote for genocide.
Not voting is a choice. Not voting is saying you’re okay with either option. You’re OK with fascism because you can’t bear to have neoliberalism instead. Maybe you’d rather have genocide of both Arabs and Latin Americans? Maybe you’d rather have a president who has promised to make the genocide worse than one who might put some amount of pressure to make it less bad.
I’d rather have a president who’s anti-genocide, so I’ll be voting for one of the anti-genocide candidates.
You’re okay with voting for genocide. I’m not.
Bear in mind that I agree with you entirely.
I fear Trump.
Welcome to two party systems. The only way out is to abolish FPTP voting, the electoral college and (In the case of local/state elections) gerrymandering.
You wanna go to prison for that wrong-think. Cause that is what the other candidate is going to do. As well as provide EVEN MORE support to Israel.
Both parties are currently fighting each other over who can say they support Israel more right now. They’re both falling over each other to do more genocide. I’m not voting for a candidate that supports genocide. I’m especially not voting for a candidate who thinks doubling down on doing genocide is going to get them more votes.
One party has actual muslims in it’s caucus. the other party is obviously in the bag for Bibi.
I call bullshit, you were either never going to vote or never going to vote dem either way.
You people would vote for Trump if he wore a blue tie.
Then why didn’t they, back when Trump wore a blue tie?
you’ve missed the entire point. we wouldn’t vote for a trump no matter what party. we weigh the good against the the bad and make an informed, imperfect decision.
That’s the system we’ve got. Man, I would love for this election to propel a new third party based on ideal policies into the fray - I REALLY DO - but whining and moaning that you WON’T choose between the two NOW is years too late. And it fucks LGBTQ, women, immigrants, ukraine and so many others over.
Stop being a one-issue dilettante and join the real world.
no, I got the point perfectly. if the democrat party put a clone of trump as their pick for president, and he was running against the non-clone trump, you would vote for the trump clone, and convince yourself that you were making an informed, measured, tactical, grown-up choice. it’s mass delusion.
The slaughter of innocent children makes no difference to sociopaths.
If there is one thing this Genocide on its way to Holocaust has shown us. is that the Democrat Party leadership are without a doubt sociopaths of the worst kind: a normal person with the power they have would not be actively helping it by sending the Neue Nazis the very weapons which they know are being used to massacre children.
There really is no other possible conclusion: no normal person would go “yeah but our campaign contributions from the AIPAC are more important than tens of thousands of dead children” or “yeah but the profits of the MIC shareholders are more important than tens of thousands of dead children”.
It’s more than that, it’s the Petro-Dollar, where the US exploits the Global South with predatory IMF loans, aka Imperialism.
Fossil Fuels are decreasing as a percentage of the overall energy supply that powers so much of the Economy and Industrial and Agricultural production in Western Economies are a small fraction of the total (less than 20% together).
Nowadays it’s not about the West making things with pillaged resources from the Global South, it’s all Financialization and the Ultra-Wealthy extracting the last leftover wealth from everybody, everything and everywhere like the endgame in a Monopoly Game.
Oil by itself is not enough justification, IMHO.
Besides, Israel is being the very opposite of a force for stability in the region, which isn’t going to help the Petro-Dollar.
(If you go check the Gold markets, it’s never been this high, something which possibly signals increasing distrust in the US Dollar and other main currencies)
Israel is being the very opposite of a force for stability in the region, which isn’t going to help the Petro-Dollar.
Israel being a destabilizing force gives the US leverage over the oil rich nations of the region. That’s why Israel is important for the petrodollar. I’m also not sure the US currently has a way to maintain its global economic dominance without the petrodollar. That’s in part why I think you see the US doubling down on support for Israel even in a context where doing so is increasingly risky.
If there is one thing this Genocide on its way to Holocaust has shown us. is that the Democrat Party leadership are without a doubt sociopaths of the worst kind
Nah, they’re normal people well adjusted to an evil system. The trial of the nazis showed that it wasn’t mental illness, just normal people doing very evil things.
Since Psychopathy and Sociopathy are ranges rather than absolutes, it’s estimated that about 4% of humans are Psychopaths or Sociopaths and we’re talking about the what’s basically the handful of people in a universe of over 300 million who seeks and achieves positions at the top of the Power Duopoly in the US in a domain well know for it’s cut-throating and backstabbing, I would say that the odds heavily favour the explanation of them being very high on the Sociopath (or Psychopath) - so called “well adjusted Sociopaths” - spectrum than them being normal people who are “relaxed about personally enabling the murder of tens of thousands of children”.
The image of a Sociopaths or Psychopath who actively seeks to inflict horrible pain on others for their own pleasure is incredibly atypical and Hollywoodesque - being high on those scales just means having no empathy for others, including their suffering or joy, and the result is that a Sociopath or Psychopath simply does that which they think is better for themselves and they can get away with (they care about the consequences for themselves, not for others), with absolutely no consideration for how that makes others feel, hence harm or even death of others is fine since that has the same emotional resonance for them as breaking an inanimate object.
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Rewarding bad behavior is going to get you more bad behavior.
Protest votes are fucking stupid. They accomplish nothing. I will vote to keep trump out of office. Harris is the best choice to keep him out. End of discussion.
why are you voting for genocide???
I DON’T HAVE A CHOICE!!!
The options are: genocide or genocide.
Voting anything other than Harris is STILL A VOTE FOR GENOCIDE.
Refusing to vote for Harris will not stop the genocide.
Refusing to vote at all will not stop the genocide.
WE ARE FUCKING BACKED INTO A CORNER.
Sorry, I’ve got to be pragmatic here. I hate it, but protest votes are fucking stupid in this system.
If it’s bad as you say, then it’s already too late for voting.
You can chose to dip you hands in the blood of thousands of dead children by activelly rewarding a candidate who is enabling their murder, or you can chose not to.
Given the lack of Democracy in the American system, that means that you either participate hence end up with blood on your hands no matter which of the two electable candidates you vote for or do not participate.The choices of others who do participate are irrelevant for that decision.
Justifying your choice of supporting a enabler of child murder candidate because others might chose the candidate you dislike the most and hence makes you fear for yourself, is not the high moral standpoint you seem to think it is.
Absolutely, it’s a though choice. However this preaching you and those like you are doing about “Not voting is a vote for Trump” is not done from the top of a Moral High Horse, it’s from the top of the pile of the bloody bones of tens of thousands of murdered children which is still growing, and driven by at best selfish self-preservation not any kind of selfless moral principle.
So spare us the bullshit.
If you were voting ***against ***something, which is the only thing Democrats do, you are casting a protest vote. And you were right they are fucking stupid.
Americans only care about the slaughter of innocents when CNN tells them to. Y’all murdered my people indiscriminately, and to this day you call us slurs and moralize to the world about not having wars
I know that the hold that Israel (and the military industrial complex) has on both major political parties is money, Money, MONEY.
The Israeli lobby is the American lobby. Israel is useful to US’ state and capitalist domination of the region and the US backs it to the hilt. It is not just that there are moneyed PACs, though there are. It is also that the entire state imperial apparatus recognizes that Israel is a tool against pan-Arabism, that it is important for maintaining the petrodollar, that it helps suppress Iran in its sovereign development. And US business interests are closely tied to those of Israel, so Israel’s loss is also their loss (and thanks to the resistance, they are feeling those losses right now!).
But there has got to be a breaking point.
There is no inherent moral breaking point. The US and its proxies will commit genocide unimpinged without dedicated efforts against them.
The American people are miseducated and racist, they cannot oppose this simply because it is wrong, they must first overcome the barriers of their miseducation and their chauvinism. They must understand what has been done to Palestine and they must consider Palestinians to be fellow people deserving of just as much as themselves and their neighbors. This is an effort that requires dedicated work and organization in left organizations, commitment to work over years and years.
The greatest forces of resistance are everywhere else. They are the forces of the al-Aqsa flood, the greater resistance forces, of Yemeni solidarity against genocide (they have faced their own by American proxies and Americans aren’t even aware of it), the countries standing increasingly in solidarity with Palestine and the resistance and pushing back against the narratives of the gemociders.
I mean, I will still vote for Harris, because I’m not stupid.
You should take a look at yourself if you think there should be a breaking point for supporting genocide. You are complicit, announcing your support for one of the genociders! Why aren’t you working against the genocide? Doing nothing would be better than offering them free support.
I know the alternative is far worse.
Normalizing support for genocide is why the political class can genocide without fear of repercussions. What are you going to do, not vote for them? Obviously not, you are still entrapped by their false logic into being their loyal sheepdog. Of course anyone that can understand politics beyond a 1-month time frame can see that this is self-defeating logic, and, per your own rhetoric, is something you should consider snapping out of when faced with supporting those that burn refugee children alive in their tents.
But I’d rather not have innocent blood on my hands after I fill out that ballot.
Then don’t vote for genociders, let alone sheepdog for others to do the same, and do something actually politically helpful. Become educated and join organizations that have had solidarity with Palestine from day 1.
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Voting for genociders is a pro-genocidal. It is being complicit.
I agree that simply not being complicit in genocide is a very low bar to clear. It is a bar that liberals will loudly and proudly fail to clear while insulting the people telling them to do otherwise. Some will become aware of the reality before doing so, some after, but only if it is something they hear about.
One should of course do material work against genocide but this is uncommon among those who are trying to sheepdog for the genociders. They already believe politics is just being a loyal sheep.
Then don’t vote for genociders, let alone sheepdog for others to do the same, and do something actually politically helpful. Become educated and join organizations that have had solidarity with Palestine from day 1.
Something politically helpful like letting Trump get elected and go full genocide against Israel, migrants, and most likely a portion of the US. Yeah, that will be very politically helpful compared to voting against Trump.
Instead of trying to justify supporting “lesser evil” genocide, you should oppose genocide. If you fail to do that, you are complicit.
Have fun with your counterproductive moral superiority then.
It’s quite productive, actually.
According to some, we all have innocent blood on our hands just by being American. ;)
We do if we pay taxes. Our tax money is going to funding a genocide whether we like it or not. But we can also help change the current administration’s policies and be part of the resistance, whether small or large, both help.
https://uscpr.org/take-action/
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly. He who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps to perpetrate it. He who accepts evil without protesting against it is really cooperating with it.
- “Letter from Birmingham Jail,” Martin Luther King, Jr. 1963
You’re correct, we do. We all assist the operation of this war machine. It may not be in our control, but that does not nullify it. We bloody our hands to live instead of choosing to die, and we are all culpable to an extent for it. Some more than others, though.
People in all societies have to ignore a multitude of moral contradictions in order to live normal lives. That is the manufactured consent all states impose upon their people.
Time is running for Harris to break with Biden ON ANYTHING. You saw a jump in poll numbers between Biden and Harris because people thought she would be different. Every interview she gives saying “I am the status quo” pushes her numbers back to Biden.
Dems would rather lose and keep their donors happy than win and lose funding. It’s really that simple.
Imagine opposing a genocide only because of horse race politics
Imagine rooting for genocide only because of horse race politics.
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It’s a race to the end of the month. Can we reach voting day while keeping a lid on discontent with the genocide?
They’re pretty clearly locked in on that. What you might see is a declaration a couple days before if her team figures they’re losing and they need a desperate play.
Stay the course!
Probably get hate for this around here, but it would be pants-on-head retarded for a political candidate to propose a major policy shift 3-weeks before a national election.
Lots of people said that about switching candidates just a few months before the election but they pulled that off fine. Abandoning a pro-genocide stance seems like a low bar in that regard.
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The major-policy shift: Not supporting an apartheid state that’s killing thousands of innocent civilians.
don’t you see?? we have to continue our policy of giving unlimited material support to The Baby Chipper 9000, the electorino is at stake!!
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Big “people who disagree” energy
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And that’s ignoring the fact that Gaza is consistently polling at the bottom of issues that will sway voters
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