And if something did maybe happen, it’s the CIA’s fault
try posting it on grad, they’ll love it
Or ml. Or Hexbear.
Why can’t we have a leftist instance that doesn’t suck CCP dick?
Marxists generally support AES, so instances that are pro-Marxism tend to be supportive of the CPC. I don’t think there are any Syndicalist instances or anything, so you’d have to go to an Anarchist server like dbzer0 or something. Lemmy.world tends to be right-wing, especially because it’s defederated from Marxist instances and some of the mods have ridiculed Marxism in general.
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Lemmy.world absolutely isn’t Leftist, it’s overwhelmingly liberal and the mods are anti-Marxist, even defederating from Marxist instances. Lemmy.world is allowed to be a liberal instance, but pretending it’s socialist is silly.
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I mean, depends on the day. I see tons of very socialist/leftist memes and content posted to world.
Leftist messaging is increasingly popular as Capitalism decays, but that doesn’t mean everyone has read theory. Lemmy.world is largely populated by liberals sympathetic to an idealistic form of Socialism that is pure fantasy, and denounce AES as a betratal of Socialism. Blackshirts and Reds has an entire chapter dedicated to western “left” anticommunism.
That being said, how many times do you need to circle jerk about socialism in the comments section on Lemmy?
I’m a Marxist-Leninist, I believe Marxism to be correct and try to get others to read theory. I get deep satisfaction whenever someone changes their mind or reads theory because of what I comment and post.
It’s not like anyone is actually going to do a proletariat revolution
On what grounds do you say this? Revolution is happening all around the world every few years in different states, as Capitalism decays more people become sympathetic to leftism. It will likely happen latest in Imperialist countries like the US, where living standards are inflated by hyper-exploitation of the Global South, and happens all the time in the Global South. Trends exist, systems aren’t static, Capitalism cannot last forever. That would be like believing water could be continuously heated and never boil.
At this point, it would just be Marxists “ackshually”-ing each other. I’m super bored of the lack of progress made in the discussions.
To be clear, most Marxists don’t need to “ackshually” each other, just towards liberals. Liberals often have the same misconceptions, that doesn’t mean they aren’t changing their minds individually.
So those people calling it neoliberal are fucking liars
Yeah, basically. ‘Neoliberal’ and ‘lib’ are just snarl words many tankies use to mean “Anyone less fascist than Mao”.
In general, .world is much less radical than many places on Lemmy. But they’re far from neoliberals. The average poster is slightly left of a Berniecrat, probably; that is to say, either a very strong SocDem or a very weak DemSoc.
Listen all I’m saying is that if we were so far left that Bernie was center right on policy the country would be a much better place for everyone.
Wouldn’t it be lovely? Unfortunately, we’ve got a lot of fighting on the ground to convince our fellow citizens to get their asses there instead of some weird 90s fantasy world.
Thanks for calling tankies what they are: fascist.
Read Blackshirts and Reds, Socialism and Fascism are entirely incompatible and serve entirely different classes.
I’m theory, yes. In practice the idea of socialism has been hijacked and subverted by the same ruling class to serve their nefarious needs time and time again. Y’all should focus instead on how socialism is incompatible with authoritarianism. “Power to the people” my ass.
Eh, it’s a mixed bag. There’s a very high concentration of centrist, “vote blue, no matter who,” liberals in Political Memes. They’re not the whole instance, but they’ve made a nice little echo chamber that makes them a pretty loud minority.
The people who think .world is socialist also think socialism is when the government does things and that social democracy is a type of socialism and not a type of liberalism.
This is especially evident the way they get whipped into a froth any time actually existing (and former) socialist countries get brought up.
Socialism is when the CIA goes in and kills your leader right?
The CIA tried to kill Charles DeGaulle in 1961, but if the CIA isn’t trying to kill your leader, you’re not doing socialism.
This is especially evident the way they get whipped into a froth any time actually existing (and former) socialist countries get brought up.
It’s funny that all the “AES” countries that are brought up are just authoritarian states, and sometimes, for that matter, authoritarian capitalist states. It’s almost like the people championing these supposedly socialist countries are just fascists painted red.
db0 is pretty neutral while being intentionally left.
I wouldn’t describe it as “neutral,” it’s definitely Anarchist dominant and the admins and users tend to be anti-Marxist. That’s fine for its audience, but if someone wants a Marxist instance dbzer0 isn’t really it.
That’s fair. I find it comfortable, but I’m really weird politically.
That’s fine, like I said! If someone wants an Anarchist server and doesn’t really want Marxists, dbzer0 is probably pretty comfy. Marxists tend to be on Lemmygrad.ml, Lemmy.ml, or Hexbear.net, which is also good. If someone wants to avoid Marxists, it’s better to be on a different instance, one that isn’t federated with them.
I actually enjoy hexabearians but don’t engage in political convos where I don’t agree with them. Db0 works perfectly for that.
That’s fine too!
I have this LINK to the Lefty Memes moderator on db0 advocating against Democracy, is an advocate for the CCP and for people in the USA to tear down the system and abandon NATO.
A lot of bad actors on Slrpnk but overall the community is anarchist leaning, anti-dictatorship.
https://queer-bolshevik.medium.com/the-aes-doctrine-wrong-then-wrong-now-a8666de371da
This is a good read. There is a pretty large socialist movement that seems to have the idea that to reach global socialism we need to defend every self proclaimed socialist state without asking any questions at all and hope they’ll get better over time.
Ultraleftism, found in the author’s Maoist leanings, is also dogmatic. I really like the articles Socalism Developed China, Not Capitalism as well as Why do Marxists Fail to Bring the “Worker’s Paradise?” as both help recontextualize AES from a materialist lens, specifically from the frame of Historical Materialism.
Blackshirts and Reds is a fantastic book, but the other 2 articles are 20 minutes each and Blackshirts and Reds is a full book.
Also, for what it’s worth, you have defended Zionism and believe Israel as a Settler-Colonial project should remain. Not exactly Marxist analysis, is this? Marxists hold firm that Israel cannot exist without its settler-colonialism, and isn’t a “nation,” hence the unwavering support for Palestinian National Liberation (especially the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine).
Doesn’t China advocate for a two state solution too? Even they aren’t arguing for Israel to not exist.
Sort of. The PRC constantly takes the least confrontational stance possible. The correct Marxist take is the One State Solution, but the PRC will always take diplomacy over conflict.
Gotcha, so advocating for the same solution as AES countries do is bad, good to know.
Different AES countries have different stances, the DPRK has always recognized Palestine and never Israel as an example. There’s a difference between just following AES and coming up with solutions to problems.
We do. DB0 and Solarpunk.
most communities on ml are fine tho, also I got banned on hexbear because I called the CPC (their official name) CCP
The admins are tankies. It’s just better to avoid it. The smaller their communities the more of a joke it is getting banned for writing a fact.
I don’t have a problem with any of the communities but I regularly catch the instance ban hammer for asinine reasons.
yeah, I mean you’re kinda right
Yeah .ml will be enough
I wonder if there are comments here that I’ve blocked
Hexbear will flood this post if they find it
I use these posts to tag people, so I can disregard and ridicule them in different posts.
It was a relief when I started tagging them since I realised it’s just a small handful of people that are usually all over the comments so it looks like there’s way more of them.
Instead of blocking them I should start tagging them so I can still clown
Well, to be perfectly clear, here in Mexico happened a students massacre in the Three Cultures square in 1968. The CIA was involved.
maybe you should post it as a separate meme since people are crying about whataboutism. I hadn’t heard of this one actually.
I don’t think I can do memes of crimes against humanity, but thank you for the suggestion. Getting people to know, or be more aware, about the hideous activities of entities like the CIA is enough for me.
fair
24 downvotes telling me actually this never happened.
Also, nobody talk about Grenada in 1983. Or Iran Air Flight 655. Or the MOVE bombing in 1985. Or the police response to the LA Riots. Or the police response to the Iraq War protests. Or the police response to OWS protests. Or the police response to BLM protests. Or the police response to the campus protests in defense of Palestine.
That’s Whataboutism.
You can’t just talk about ACAB or discuss the broad problems of a heavily armed carceral state looking for heads to crack. Only Foreign Countries are Bad.
You’re right. TWO culturally shocking things happened that year.
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There’s a huge difference between “the famine never happened” and “The widespread crop failures caused famines in some regions due to ineffective policies, bad estimates grain production, and local conflict”.
The former is just as wildly ahistorical as the “Stalin did holodomer because he was evil” that’s taught in schools.
While that might work for someone whose only interest in the event is demonizing (or eulogizing) the USSR, if you actually want to know how and why things happened, a deeper understanding is necessary.
It certainly true that “Stalin did holodomer because he was evil” would be a stupid thing to say. Good thing very few people are actually saying that then.
The actual point is that when the crop failures started happening Stalin decided to make sure it disproportionately hurt non-Russians, especially Ukrainians. Whether that’s technically genocide or not depends how severe it was and what else they were doing to try to Russify the area at the time, but frankly, if we’re talking about the subtleties of the definition of genocide I hope we can agree that whether it crosses that threshold or not what happened was not okay.
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The whole nation starved due to policies in places and people in power.
As in Stalin and stallinist party.
Yes, as a matter of fact I did know that Stalin was Georgian. So? He didn’t care about that. He wanted the Soviet Union to be easier to rule, and right or wrong he thought making it less ethnically diverse would help with that goal. He didn’t want the USSR to become more Russian out of some kind of ethnic superiority garbage like the funny mustache guy from around the same time. He wanted it to further cement his control. That was pretty much the primary motivation for everything he did. Motivation isn’t really the issue with that kind of thing though, is it?
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They felt the same way the Kent State Students felt before the attack.
That tens of millions of people across the nation were about to be slaughtered, broadcast on tv around the world?
It wasn’t tens of millions deaths if that’s what you’re implying. An atrocity but always good to stay to the facts.
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Very legit sources. Everyone I know goes to prolewiki and johnmenadue.com lol
Well I can’t exactly quote CNN for you to show you the counter to Western propaganda, can I? Tell me a “legit source” that isn’t skewed by Western media.
All legit sources are members in a conspiracy to discredit China. Only the studious journalists at prolewiki and johnmenadue dot com will tell you the real facts.
I mean, if you need a legit journalist saying it, here’s a Western journalist that used to work for the Washington Post:
https://www.hnn.us/article/jay-mathews-the-myth-of-tiananmen
But, ultimately, there’s not going to be a new York Times article saying that China didn’t slaughter people for no reason because that’s against their goals as Western journalists. I guess you’d just have to believe that the news lies about things. But I guess you believe that the news always tells the truth and that they’re infallible.
“A lot of people died but not in that particular spot,” extremely helpful.
You suck
I’m sorry, I’m afraid that if I do not use an illegal VPN, my government will punish me for clicking those links
/s
What a funny way to ignore information that counters your viewpoints.
Why are people so laser-focused on this one event that happened over three decades ago?
Are people in China or on Chinese social media allowed to talk about it today?
Being able to talk about the genocide of the Palestinian people doesn’t seem to change anything. Turns out freedom of speech is happily granted when your speech is powerless.
You asked why people care about it so much, and I’m pretty confident the reason is because we’re allowed to talk about it here. If we don’t, someone will forget about it. Those who don’t know history are doomed to repeat it.
Furthermore, what we’re remembering is a moment when people who were trying to make their voices heard were silenced. By making our voices heard and remembering that they lost their lives in the name of their voices is in itself an act of remembrance that honors their memories.
Lastly, for the low hanging fruit, asking why people are “laser-focused” on an event from a long time ago is a stupid fucking question when today there are nazis and fascists on the fucking ballot. That’s why we remember the past.
And yes, to your point, those do who know history are doomed to watch others repeat it but remembering it is nonetheless valuable, and honoring people who died for something noble is also valuable.
You speak of nobility and remembering the past but I’ve only seen this used as a cheap way to score political points on lemmy.world (and upvotes) for what that matters.
Someone casually browsing who doesn’t know the event would only glean that the CCP is bad, but they would have no idea what the students were even protesting about. So much for remembering the past.
As for nazis on the ballot, we have two presidential candidates and both fully support israel’s campaign of genocide and lebensraum.
Well you didn’t ask why the OP was laser focused on this event, you asked why “people” are and I gave my best guess as to why it keeps coming up. It also could be that people just like to do things they’re told not to do
Yeah, that’s fair.
No speech is powerless. That’s exactly why the CCP supresses it.
That just proves my point. If bringing it up didn’t matter then the CCP wouldn’t bother surpressing it.
Are you for real? Should we forget the people that are silenced in this world?
No, just wondering why the obsession with this one event. This particular event gets brought up more on lemmy.world than perhaps any other historical event. I would ask the same if people kept bringing up the great molasses flood and cracking the same old “slow as molasses” joke.
Because it’s a world famous event that is virtually unknown in the host country. There are usually examples for each country.
The US doesn’t know anything about the war crimes exposed by wikileaks.
Russia knows almost nothing true about the Ukrainian war.
The UK has superembargos (usually about celebs and royalty) which is only reported on abroad.
Thailand doesn’t gossip about its royalty.
Etc.
Every single person in China knows about this event. And the average Chinese person’s understanding is closer to reality about it than that of the average Westerner. Sure Chinese people’s understanding of it is overly sympathetic to the government, and they scrub internet posts about the event, but Americans have a completely cartoonish propaganda view. Listen to the reporters who were there, not random redditors with a hate boner.
Sure they scrub any mention of it, it’s totally fine
Every single person in China knows about this event
How does everyone in china know all about it if the CCCP scrub internet posts about the event?
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2024/06/what-is-the-tiananmen-crackdown/
In the 35 years since the crackdown, all discussion of the incident has been heavily censored in China, as authorities have effectively attempted to erase it from history. Public commemoration or mere mention, online or off, of the Tiananmen crackdown is banned.
Regularly since 1989, activists in mainland China have been detained and charged with “subversion” or “picking quarrels” if they commemorate those who were killed, call for the release of prisoners or criticize government actions during the Tiananmen crackdown.
The government has never accepted responsibility for the human rights violations during and after the military crackdown or held any perpetrator accountable. With each year that passes, justice becomes ever more elusive.
Amnesty is probably a capitalist lib propaganda group or something to them.
Because there is a real effort by a government to prevent people millions of people from remembering.
I don’t know anyone who is laser focused. But anyway, do you think important historical events exist? If so, what are your top ten of the last half century?
The idea of Tiananmen Square being one of the top ten most important historical events in that time period is wild to me. Just in terms of death toll, the highest estimate mentioned on Wikipedia of 10,000 comes from a US ambassador citing an anonymous “friend,” and is many times higher than any other estimate - a more realistic generous estimate is closer to 1,000 (the official number is 300). Let’s compare that to the lowest estimates from the list of genocides page:
- Gaza: 38,000 (ongoing)
- Darfur: 98,000 (2005)
- Congo (Effacer le tableau): 60,000 (2003)
- Congo (Massacre of Hutis): 200,000 (1997)
- Rwanda: 491,000 (1994)
- Bosnia: 31,000 (1995)
- Somalia (Isaaq): 50,000 (1989)
- Iraq (Kurds): 50,000 (1989)
- Cambodia: 1,386,000 (1979)
- Indonesia (East Timor): 85,000 (1999)
- Uganda: 100,000 (1978)
The same year that Tiananmen Square happened, two separate genocides were ongoing that, even by the most ridiculously generous comparisons possible, each killed at least 5 times as many people. Searching “Isaaq” on either .world or .ml gives exactly one hit which is a comment listing off a bunch of genocides, like I’m doing now. Entire cities were leveled and hundreds of thousands of people were forced to flee the country, but nobody ever talks about it (myself included, until today).
In addition to that list, if we’re talking about events in general, then we should also look at the list of interstate wars (again, lowest estimates):
- Persian Gulf War: 29,000 (1991)
- War in Abkhazia: 25,000 (1993)
- First Congo War: 235,000 (1997)
- Kosovo War: 16,000 (1999)
- Eritrian-Ethopian War: 53,000 (2000)
- Second Chechen War: 20,000 (2000)
There’s ongoing conflicts in Myanmar, in North Africa, in Mexico, and in Sudan, and more, each of which has left more dead than Tiananmen this year and the year’s not even over yet.
So it doesn’t seem especially significant in terms of raw numbers, but you could argue that it’s more significant because of the effect it had on Chinese politics, as the controversy led to the resignation of the head of state, Deng Xiaoping. Except that I never ever see anything like that discussed. Either way, it didn’t change the broad direction of the reforms.
I could give my own reasons as to why it’s given such a high position of importance, but I’m genuinely curious to hear your own explanation of why Tiananmen would warrant a spot on a top ten list of important events, compared to any of the other events I’ve listed.
I don’t know anyone who is laser focused.
Really? You haven’t seen the many posts on this one event on lemmy.world? Hell, this is the shitpost community, not even a political one.
Because Lemmy is considered and made by communists.
Communists, tankies who will always rush in to defend the CCP and suppress the atrocities committed by the CCP, without fail. It’s both hilarious and madening.
Basically what shitposting is all about.
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“After several weeks of standoffs and violent confrontations between the army and demonstrators left many on both sides severely injured, a meeting held among the CCP’s top leadership on 1 June concluded with a decision to clear the square.[15][13][14] The troops advanced into central parts of Beijing on the city’s major thoroughfares in the early morning hours of 4 June and engaged in bloody clashes with demonstrators attempting to block them, in which many people – demonstrators, bystanders, and soldiers – were killed. Estimates of the death toll vary from several hundred to several thousand, with thousands more wounded.[16][17][18][19][20][21]”
When you go to Wikipedia, click on those numbers in the brackets
As I said, there were clashes at major thoroughfares surrounding the square, there was not tanks gunning down masses of protesters inside the square.
Who said anything about tanks shooting people? Did you just make that up and denied it yourself? Lmao.
Student protesters where shot up and killed. Indiscriminataley. I could not fucking care less what type of pew pew was used.
Yeah but if you don’t know what exact bullet they used or what they had for breakfast that morning then your argument is invalid I’m afraid /s
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If that’s the cops’ response to being attacked then they (like all cops) deserved it. ACAB
I hope you didn’t read “cops responding with indiscriminate murder” to imply anything else.
Idk what to read from you, if you think cops responding with indiscriminate murder is bad, why the ccp apologia?
Only when someone denies the massacre do I link to these horrific NSFL photos.
You do know that the pictures support what he said right? There’s pictures of dead soldiers because they weren’t given ammo when marching into the city. Once they started getting killed, they gave them ammo and they just started shooting everybody. Before then the protesters smashed their heads, stripped them, and burned them.
The ones who stayed in the square were mostly the peaceful hunger strikers and not the fighters so the square itself was cleared without much trouble compared to the march into the city.
Armed troops and tanks made their way to the square on the night of June 3 and into the morning hours of June 4. They soon shot those who stood in their way and crushed those who wouldn’t move out of it.
Once again, that’s not out of line with what he and I said. There were barricades and fighting in the streets of Beijing and the army killed whoever got in their way to the square, but the people occupying the square were negotiated with and peacefully dispersed. They then once again took all the ammo from the soldiers.
I don’t understand why you think it’s important to insist that nothing happened precisely inside Tiananmen Square, but you are perfectly happy for a massacre to have occurred in, say, Changan Avenue.
Anyway, to respond to the original challenge rather than argue your questionable morals.
A tank set ablaze by protesters burns in Tiananmen Square on June 3.
Because it’s what happened. It’s not a point of morals or anything else. The other poster is making a value argument that I don’t particularly agree with, but when it comes to the reality of what happened, they’re grounded. Go read the Wikipedia article.
The other poster is trying to claim nothing bad happened inside Tiananmen Square itself, and it was the protestors that were the real aggressors.
This is bullshit.
The situation escalated because reserves from outside Beijing were drafted in, who had no friends or relatives protesting.
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So we are now trying the, it’s only 300 people so it’s not a massacre argument. Seeing as you bring up the 10,000 number, let’s look at the source.
Combined with the above photos, this seems closer to the truth than the official 300 Chinese story.
Like clockwork you’re here to deny the many atrocities of authoritarian despots.
What do you even get out of constantly getting your metaphoric-cock beaten into the dirt 2 dozen times a day?
What exactly do you think happened, and what do you think I am claiming happened?
Please don’t deflect.
I am not deflecting, I am trying to understand what you think I am denying.
Everything I’ve said happened, protesters lynching police and police gunning down protesters in the streets surrounding the square, is reflected in the wikipedia article, the only thing that I’ve denied, that masses of unarmed students were gunned down and run over by tanks in the square, is proven false in the tankman video, which I linked.
Wait I also denied that China claims nothing happened at Tienanmen square, that’s also proven by the official Chinese account of what happened in the Wikipedia article.
Deflect away, coward.
No, I’m not playing your games.
Answer the question:
What do you get out of having your metaphoric-cock beaten into the ground 24 times a day?
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Your comment after being imported into China:
The chinese narrative isn’t thatnothing happened, it’s that there was a battle outside the square, including protesters lynching and burning cops and cops gunning down unarmed protesters on bikes from their trucks. This is corroborated by videos and pictures.The western narrative
of tanks going into the square and gunning down tens of thousands of protesters (after getting delayed by tank man)is blatantly false,as you can see in the uncut tankman video pans over to show the square the tanks are leaving was emptyexcept for some bikes.Fuck you.
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Thanks, it’s called a typo.
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Yes, I did. Tianmen square massacre deniers make me mad.
It should make you mad as well, if you were a decent person.
Wikipedia indicates there wasn’t a massacre in Tiananmen square: “Several people who were situated around the square that night, including former Beijing bureau chief of The Washington Post Jay Mathews[f] and CBS correspondent Richard Roth[g] reported that while they had heard sporadic gunfire, they could not find enough evidence to suggest that a massacre took place on the square”
“In 2011, three secret cables from the United States embassy in Beijing agreed there was no bloodshed inside Tiananmen Square.[244] Instead, they said Chinese soldiers opened fire on protesters outside the square as they fought their way from the west towards the center.[244] A Chilean diplomat who had been positioned next to a Red Cross station inside the square told his US counterparts that he did not observe any mass firing of weapons into the crowds in the square itself, although sporadic gunfire was heard. He said that most of the troops who entered the square were armed only with anti-riot gear.”
While they do provide sources that say the student death toll was likely high, most sources estimate around 500. (Again, not in the square itself)
I’m just trying to be factual- the students were funded and supported by Western forces including the United States, probably not to help the students and spread democracy and capitalism, but to create division. The students clashed with China’s fucked up communist government and military. There’s not too many possibilities when a civilian force clashes with a state military.
I support you if you oppose China’s actions here, I just think saying there was a massacre in Tiananmen square is insincere.
Okay, that’s Wikipedia that I quoted
Don’t have a hissy fit about someone else’s emotions. It’s just a comment.
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No nuance, only china bad evil commees who kill their own people because they hate freedom.
Nah, China kills it’s own people because the ruler can’t ever tolerate handing power to anyone else.
Nice try tho 🤡
And how long do you think Winnie’s reign will be?
Well he’s incredibly popular, so probably quite long unless he starts fucking up or gets coup’d by capitalists in the party ala Yeltsin.
Unlike Hu Jintao’s path, he isn’t struggling to manage the contradictions between the interests of the national bourgeoisie against those of the working class.
Well he’s incredibly popular
Of course the authoritarian cunt who mandates his servant-citizens like him is “popular”. It’s illegal for him not to be lmao.
Hitler is popular as well, I suppose that means he deserves our respect right?
Easy to seem popular when you make people who are against you disappear
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Oh, well that changes everything then /s
With a detour over some dead people.
Someone think of the poor tanks that were trampled into paste that had to be hosed off into the sewers.
Those poor, forgotten tanks.
Tanks have the right to self-defense, too!
