I think the real upsetting thing isn’t Biden’s performance, or having Biden as president for four more years. He achieved quite a bit after all. The real upsetting thing is the DNC being such cunts that they even pushed for this debate, hoping that Biden could win, only to deny and ignore Biden’s abhorrent performance immediately after. That Bernie got shafted twice by them, that is the really upsetting part.
It seems pretty obvious to me at this point that the DNC would rather lose than have an actual progressive win. None of the shitty things that Trump wants to do will hurt them, (stupid take if they cared at all about their descendants but they’re either too arrogant or too ignorant to worry about that) but actual progressive policies that helped average people WOULD hurt their way of life. Marginally. Like, the tiniest little amount. Like, your yacht can only have one master bedroom instead of four. But why give that up when you don’t have to?
“It’s a big club, and you ain’t in it”
I’m voting for Biden though, and I’ll keep voting as progressively as possible in the down ballot elections. If a progressive movement from the bottom up can start by doing things like getting rid of FPTP, we still have a chance. And to anyone thinking about not voting, please do. The president is one person. They are the single most powerful person individually, (taking aside impact on the judicial system) but the collective impact on your day to day life is far more influenced by down ballot positions. Research your down ballot candidates and vote. Many of those races are decided by only a handful of votes. Yours matters.
DNC would rather lose than have an actual progressive win
This was made perfectly clear in 2016 when Hillary stole the nom by colluding with Debbie Wasserman-Schultz.
If people haven’t caught on by now, they haven’t been paying attention. Or are just willfully ignorant.
It seems pretty obvious to me at this point that the DNC would rather lose than have an actual progressive win.
It’s not in their interests to let a progressive win. Just like their counterpart, the DNC takes a shit ton of
briberydonations fromcorporationslobbyists. Bringing in a progressive who would reform the system or push back against pro-corporate policies is biting the hands that feed them.DNC should’ve started promoting someone else as Presidential candidate since the last 4 years and let Biden work quietly in the background.
They could be rotten from the inside as well, knowing full well how it would go
I wouldn’t be surprised
https://youtu.be/aDfp-QsH51w?t=2018
Sorry, Piped and other frontends isn’t working right now, so you’ll have to use normal YouTube or go through VLC.
Or simply have YouTube links redirected to NewPipe.
Democratic Nation of Congo?
Democratic National Committee.
I am a tankie and voting for Biden lmao. The Prolitariat must be protected till enough class conciousness is achieved for Socialism to succeed.
THANK YOU. It’s that fkin simple.
So simple, yet so hard for so many to understand.
Most folks are dumber than a chickens.
And I’d vote for a corpse before I vote for 34 time Convicted Felon Donald Trump. Eat the rich. Pack the courts. Seize the assets of felonious companies.
Mother fucker could be Dracula for all I care. Still voting for him.
Dracula is cool as fuck tho.
https://youtu.be/1Onr4z2fdDM - Dracula’s pretty based, ngl.
I’m gonna be honest, I was thinking of Dracula flow when I posted this.
My favorite theme so yeah, def voting for that.
There is russian meme “voting for stool just to vote against UR”.
You sound like a rational tankie, which by the definitions that lemmies have explained to me, would make you not a tankie.
“Anyone who thinks themselves a tankie is too self aware to be one” sounds like one of those fallacies you’d learn about in highschool. (What is a tankie, btw? I’ve been too scared to ask…)*
A tankie is, broadly, someone who wants to effect left-wing ideology using authoritarian methods. It originally referred to those who defended the USSR using tanks to suppress the Hungarian Revolution, but it could be aptly used to describe those who defend China’s actions in Tiananmen Square. It’s rightfully used as a perjorative, since authoritarian enforcement is antithetical to leftism, particularly communism.
Tankies are hypocrites who didn’t understand their self-proclaimed ideologies. If someone’s idea of communist praxis is lining up dissenters for the firing squad, you’re dealing with a tankie.
wants to effect left-wing ideology using authoritarian methods
Odd. I’m getting called a tankie because I just won’t vote for Biden (or Trump). Someone must have gotten confused.
By their reasoning:
No vote for Biden is a vote for Trump. Trump is fascist and authoritarian. Tankies are authoritarians. Therefore, you are a tankie. /s
Lots of people say lots of silly things, nonetheless Trump is worse for the proletariat than Biden, and turning your nose up at the lesser evil endangers real people when the greater evil wins. You don’t have to vote for the greater evil to help tip the scales in their favor. Accelerationism is authoritarianism with extra steps and no one in the driver’s seat.
Biden doesn’t accept blame for tipping the scales in their favor. Biden’s family doesn’t accept blame for tipping the scales in their favor. Biden’s campaign doesn’t accept blame for tipping the scales in their favor. The DNC leadership doesn’t accept blame for tipping the scales in their favor. People who voted for Biden in the 2020 primaries don’t accept blame for tipping the scale in their favor. Moderaters and political analysts don’t accept blame for tipping the scales in their favor. People like you letting those people get away with that and focusing on telling me to be quiet and vote for Biden don’t accept blame for tipping the scales in their favor.
I don’t accept blame for it either.
IDGAF who does or doesn’t accept blame for whatever. I care about material results; my future, my family’s future, my neighbors’ futures, the future of the people who live in this country, and this world. IDGAF how ideologically pure a politician is, or who’s wrong or right, or who gets away with whatever. I care about the people who are going to suffer if the Federalists, Fascists, and Fundamentalists keep establishing their foothold judge by judge, bill by bill, ruling by ruling.
This isn’t grade school, this isn’t a game, this isn’t about fair. There are real stakes here. People will die. I’m not heartless enough to play the blame game with lives on the line. I’m voting harm reduction because I’m an adult and I play the hand I’m dealt. Righteously losing doesn’t help anything but ego-centric deontology.
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Tankies have read Marx and Engels, yes, but there are many other forms of leftism and even other forms of communism that aren’t ML. You are right about ML communists, in particular, but many other leftist movements are anti-authoritarian by their nature, so the point still stands.
Also, it’s possible to do the reading and disagree with the methods of implementation. I agree with the economics and the stated goals of communism, but I don’t believe authoritarianism is the best way to go about it.
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I hop off the train at the part where the top-down dictatorship comes into play. Probably a bit before the level of authoritarianism where the Joseph Stalin type starts killing people for having a dissenting opinion, and what not.
Using the state to enforce good wages and end the terribleness of the stock market/landlord culture does not need to involve a top down dictatorship and a lack of democracy.
I know about the “dictatorship of the proletariat” and all that, and in my opinion, it should involve all of the workers, not one person or a small group of people. A top down dictatorship just makes it all that easier for the party to be infiltrated and controlled by bourgeois interests. If said dictatorship is a true democracy, with each worker having an equal say, it makes it pretty hard to control the proles.
You completely disregard, that the soviet union did number 3 and crushed all unions not falling in line. Or that they ignore the will of the proletariat during the 1917 and 1918 elections numerous times.
The authoritarian way isnt being critized for coming down on Capitalists. Its critized for how it treated every deviation from the party line. And especially, how it turned into a political chess game at the top, which prioritized amassing personal power and wealth over the actual well being of the state.
There’s a difference between someone-needs-to-coordinate-and-manage-complex-undertakings “authoritarian” and line-the-dissidents-up-against-the-wall “authoritarian”. Tankies are the latter.
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Uh huh, and historically violent authoritarian transitional regimes are always so willing to step aside after the transition.
Getting our hands dirty means shooting comrades who carried the revolutionary wars for being a bit yucky.
I’m a tankie. What tankie is supposed to mean is someone who blindly supports anything anyone does so long as they claim to be communist and wave a red flag. There’s maybe a handful of edgy teens who actually fit that description, but the way it’s actually used is to punch left at anyone who supports anything a socialist country has ever done, or who is insufficiently patriotic/nationalistic and is willing to consider things from an internationalist perspective.
If you say for example that Cuba under Castro had a successful literacy program, then there are people who will accuse you of being a tankie just for that. Because it gets used this way, some people like myself chose to reclaim the insult and wear it proudly.
Generally, the actual term for most “tankies” would be Marxist-Leninist. But I actually prefer tankie because it’s a more general, big tent label. It’s used so broadly that even anarchists can be called tankies. It’s basically like “woke” where it doesn’t actually have any real meaning.
Well I think there are probably a half dozen interpretations that people on Lemmy use. One I have heard repeated is that they view the Tiananmen Square event as something that China rightfully did… hence “Tankie”
The idea that that’s the origin of the term is a common misconception. The actual origin was about the USSR under Kruschev sending in the military in response to a rebellion in Hungary. Some British communists supported the move, while other communists opposed it and labeled the supporters as tankies.
But regardless of the origin, it’s changed to where now it’s liberals using it to criticize socialists in general.
If you say for example that Cuba under Castro had a successful literacy program, then there are people who will accuse you of being a tankie just for that.
$COUNTRY had a successful literacy program under $LEFT_GOVERMENT.
Militant leftist, in the most basic sense.
But anti-leftists tend to co-opt the term to replace ‘fascist’ or ‘nazi’ in their discourse.
I am by no means an expert, but the test that was explained to me is that if you look at the famous tianamen square picture of the guy holding grocery bags facing down a line of tanks, and then proceed to side with the line of tanks, then you’re a tankie.
When I say that I am not an expert, what I actually mean is that I’m a random idiot from the internet, so don’t take anything I say as gospel truth.
I’ve only been on lemmy for a few months, and I’ve never heard the term tankie on any other platform. My understanding is that a tankie is a militant supporter of communism, who completely disregards (or is in support of) how every time it’s ever actually been done it turns into an authoritarian dictatorship (or something similarly unpleasant to live under).
My own biases exposed: I am an american, and most of what I know I learned in the absolutely fucked american public education system, which says communism = evil, because of the red scare a while back.
If you do some googling, there’s a wikipedia article on the subject. I’ve forgotten most of the content of that article shortly after I read it, I should look at it again and maybe it will stick this time.
People that are happy to run people over in tanks to force their communist version of society on everyone else.
You get it! We can’t fuck over vulnerable people. We can’t abandon minorities and LGBT people. Even if we let things get worse to the point of a societal collapse, a lot of people will die because of it – and societal collapse has not historically led to better societies down the road.
That’s such an important point. Anyone who thinks a win by Trump will somehow speed up the advent of socialism is just deluded.
People think Trump will eventually make things so bad that the average man will salivate at the chance for Socialist rule…
What will actually happen if you get a nasty concoction made from a pinch of Handmaid’s Tale with a dash of Holocaust 2…
And the average man won’t care, as long as the trains run on time and they owned the libs… and if the trains don’t run on time, they probably have libs to blame.
trains run on time
I am here to regretfully inform you about the state of american rail infrastructure…
I know, I sadly know.
My trans friends are what keeps me committed to voting Biden no matter how disappointed I am in him. Things are already really scary for them right now and I can’t be complicit in making them worse, even through inaction.
Consider me another one of your trans friends. If Trump gets elected I’m probably gonna die in a concentration camp. Don’t do that to me, don’t do that to them. I’m begging you for my life.
As a transwoman as well, I second this!
Don’t let the fascist win!
I’d suggest taking a flight overseas the day after the elections, booked prior to it. If Trump losses, you can use it to celebrate it. If he wins… well, you can ask for asylum on arrival.
Can’t afford that…
😕
I am trans and not voting for Biden. I refuse to sacrifice Palestinians for my own safety or the safety of my loved ones. All the stuff people say now about them being an acceptable sacrifice or there being nothing they can do about it, that’s what they’ll be saying about us tomorrow. Solidarity between marginalized groups is the only viable strategy for long term survival.
I hate being used as a rhetorical token to make people feel better about selling out another vulnerable group.
I respect this decision. But, I’m selfishly voting for Biden. Trump’s first term stressed me out.
Tbh I’m fine with respectful disagreement.
Thoughtful, educated and informed voting decisions should be respected. Shame on this duopoly for forcing its electorate to choose between tacit support for a genocide, and outright fascism.
Thank you. I have to vote according to my conscience and what I believe is right, but if someone else’s conscience tells them differently, I can make my case but ultimately it is their decision to make. So many people on here expect everyone to think and see things the exact same way as them and can’t even seem to imagine someone having different values or a different perspective, and that can be very frustrating.
If you actually cared you would vote biden. No one capable of it will save the Palestinians. None. At least with biden someone survives.
If our “democracy” has decayed to the point where I’m not able to vote on whether or not we do a genocide, then it is not a democracy and I should not legitimize the sham through participation.
There is no circumstance under which I will support genocide. If that means I die, then I will die. If any of you had a backbone you’d do the same. And if enough people drew that line, they’d have no choice but to listen to us.
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Oh, does Biden support ranked choice voting, then?
He doesn’t. I’m not going to support asshole after asshole in the vain hope that maybe out of the kindness of their hearts they’ll eventually give us freedom, which directly opposes their own interests. You’re the one that needs to grow up if you believe that fairy tale.
Trans people are not a monolith. There’s other trans people in this thread begging us to vote for Biden for their safety. Your feelings about being a rhetorical token are not invalid, but recognize that other people in your vulnerable group are legitimately crying out for help.
Either way, I’m glad I’m not one of your loved ones. Your own safety is one thing. Their safety is another.
They’re entitled to their views, as I am to mine.
I will do whatever I can to protect my loved ones and ensure they retain access to their meds. But I cannot go against the dictates of my conscience. And as I said, in the long term, solidarity between marginalized groups is the only viable path forward and I will not sacrifice that long term strategy for some fleeting, half-hearted protection. In fact I’ve already seen people applying the “lesser evil” argument to sacrificing trans rights since I posted this. Only by uniting and drawing a red line do we have a chance in the long run.
Right? Imagine it’s a fucking Saw Trap, and there’s an easy way out without sacrificing anyone… and an equally easy way out sacrificing everyone. Make the less sociopathic choice.
I can’t even imagine how awful the people who fill that vacuum would be.
Biden is literally arming a genocide. He was even adamant about his continued support for that. Meanwhile Dems led cities have brutally beaten up peaceful colelge protests and invited fascist MAGA mobs to attack minority students there.
The DNC and Biden do not protect minorities. They are white supremacists with just a bit more moderation to the means they employ, but they will absolutely resort to authoritarian crackdowns if they feel the minorities to step out of line by demanding justice and rights.
We can’t fuck over vulnerable people.
That’s what you’re doing when voting for Dems.
Yes, I see how you’re protecting me when you elect the party that would arrest me for being a “Public Danger” because of the fact that I’m trans.
If you would get off your ass and gather support for a decent party this wouldn’t be a problem.
Last I tried my Socialist Party USA chapter belittled me, called me a rape apologist, and refused to do anything for the local community outside of shaming people for wanting to vote out Trump by any means possible.
That sucks, i bet there’s a more accepting party in your area for you. Try PSL or Green party
“Your lack of support for Democrats may end up empowering people who will throw me in jail just for who I am”
“Stop being lazy and go improve a better party”
You’re entitled to your opinion dude, but you were a major dick here.
Your lack of support for Democrats may end up empowering people who will throw me in jail just for who I am
Your support of Dems is what prevents a real opposition to fascism.
You’re entitled to your opinion dude, but you were a major dick here.
Truth hurts, don’t care.
Here’s a brutal truth for you then. Being a raging, unapologetic jerk won’t progress your political goals. It’ll only make them harder to achieve.
Also, you’re a fucking asshole.
Go educate yourself, and then you can join the adult discussions.
Oh the irony.
Agreed, hopefully someday you understand it.
Right, you should educate yourself.
What vulnerable people are dems going after?
Don’t forget how Biden is being harder on immigration than Trump was but don’t worry Biden is totally for minorities
The poor is the most clear. Also black people, just look at our prisons, and the crime bill Joe Biden wrote
Show me. Tell me how the party of Obama and Harris are going after them.
That’s just prison stats. Nothing about what democrats are doing to make it worse
Based and practicalpilled
Thank you for being a sane human 🙏
This is the way.
Oh my god! A tankie who’s not fucking stupid. I never thought I’d see the day.
The Prolitariat must be protected
By consenting to corruption and a path to WWIII. That is not protecting them, in fact it is ensuring them a terrible future. If you cared about them, you would vote, volunteer, donate, and support the PSL, CPUSA, or Green party instead.
Lmao the green party isn’t going to do jack shit. They’re completely unserious about politics. They aren’t even trying to build up an infrastructure in all 50 states that lets them get suffused into local and state politics. They aren’t even aiming for Congressional seats, which would be necessary for an actual Green president to get anything done.
They’re just anti science grifters who think wifi causes cancer, entertain vaccine skepticism, and demonize nuclear energy – the latter of which could be a major asset to stopping global warming. Newer designs are even able to consume nuclear waste, meaning an anti nuclear position results in more waste than we would otherwise.
I actually had my local Socialist Party USA chapter kick me out, ban me from their facebook, and publicly announce that I’m a rape apologist because I wouldn’t tell people to support an openly transphobic “Vaccines Cause Autism” Green Party candidate over Joe Biden.
Then support the PSL. I work with the Green party to improve it, because that’s how democracy works. It’s okay you don’t understand that.
I’m afraid all of us don’t have that much free time. But hey, if you can get them to stop being anti science and actually become a serious party, I’ll consider them.
Just don’t expect me to accept the Green Party’s many imperfections. If you don’t accept the Democrat’s imperfections, then you should perfectly understand.
Send them an email and discuss your issues. They are the only voice in politics that supports the science of climate change.
Democrats don’t have imperfections, they are fundamentally flawed because they are corrupt.
Until Stein vehemently recants her remarks about WiFi causing cancer, vaccine skepticism, and nuclear fear mongering – or the Green party completely disavows her and those remarks – it would be a total waste of time.
It isn’t my job as an engineer to tell “the only voice in politics that supports the science of climate change” to stop endorsing completely anti science positions. Nor is it on me to try and correct a willfully anti science party. They need to show good faith, and they’ve done nothing whatsoever to suggest any of that to me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2suVx9cDKw She is the one with a medical degree, so you don’t have any authority over her opinion, sounds reasonable for her to make her stance out of concern, even if she is wrong.
I’m also an engineer, and that’s why I use my knowledge to try to influence the party.
I’d vote for ToS era Pike over Trump. I’d vote for a candidate who only communicates via ouija board over Trump. I’d vote to not have a president for 4 years before I’d vote for Trump.
It’s crazy that Trump can get convicted of fraud, be found liable for sexual assault, promise to abuse presidential power to get revenge against those who cross him, actively undermine both national and global security, promise to round up millions and put them into camps, attempt to overthrow the election and refuse to not try it again, and so on, and his side is still so loyal they’ll wear solidarity diapers for him.
I’m so down for ouija board prez.
Ouija board prez ‘channeling’ FDR: T-A-X-T-H-E-R-I-C-H-Goodbye
lol
He is like a cult’s leader, they can do no wrong. People’s belief in him is unflappable.
I’d rather have an empty chair than Trump.
I’d vote to not have a president for 4 years before I’d vote for Trump.
And now I’m curious how many things depend on having a president at all, and what his role is, by design, in the US and other countries.
Cabinet and federal appointments are the big thing. That’s why I’ll take Biden over Trump. I’m not just voting for him, I’m voting for the 4000 jobs in energy, health, labor, transportation, etc. to be run by Democrats, liberals, and qualified people.
Trump, and project 2025 plan to fill all those roles with right wing nutjobs who will do anything to please the right. On top of those 4000, they’d expand the presidential appointment power to fire up to 45% of the federal workforce. Meteorologist who said the hurricane won’t hit Alabama? GONE! Doctor who said injecting bleach was a bad idea? FIRED!
I’ll take anyone who won’t put Project 2025 in motion.
Didn’t we have a ouija board as a president back when Nancy’s psychic was running the show?
I’m voting Brandon but let’s not pretend he didn’t shit the bed. It was fucking awful. Brandon should fuck off, but I’d vote for a corpse over any republican, and that will probably be true for the rest of my life.
It’s funny how the standard by which we judge Biden is so high, and the standard for Trump is so low. Like… “oh wow, orange man form complete sentence, he’s really killin it” vs “omg Biden stumbled over his words and had one bad night, his candidacy is over”.
Biden had more than “a bad night” the dude looks like he’s aging out of the ability to stay awake for 90 minutes at a time.
Fuck trump and the GOP for the rest of time but Joe looks like shit dude, and he has for a while. Don’t fucking gaslight me.
That’s fine. He surrounds himself with capable people (The other guy’s are all heading to prison and were always the most incompetent for their positions). His party is just as corpo as the other, but they will not enact Project 2025 and still have a chance at change for the better (the other party does not). One party might maintain the crappy status quo, the other will absolutely entrench and yank the country further in the wrong direction irreversibly against the will of the majority.
There’s so much Democratic gaslighting going on now it’s ridiculous. They need to stop fucking around, put the hammer down and just run Newsom. What do the egotists like RBG and Biden think their legacy is going to be? Step out gracefully and let someone else take the reins jfc. Otherwise the legacy you leave is that you have fucked us all.
Biden had more than “a bad night” the dude looks like he’s aging out of the ability to stay awake for 90 minutes at a time.
You have completely bought into the long GOP build up of a fundamental lie. Congrats I guess.
Edit: The thing that makes the false GOP narrative of Biden being senile and incapable SO effective is that it taps into your own prejudices. None of us really want a senior citizen as president and many younger folks believe older people to be incapable of anything more than watching TV and playing bingo. This is easily disproven but the prejudice remains. So when his horrible debate performance confirms your bias, well… of course you run with it and ignore all other evidence. Never mind that the very next day he did a great and highly energetic campaign rally… never mind that 99% of the time Biden has been on point, articulate and rarely fucked up more than could be explained by a life-long speech impediment. Nope, you all want to believe so much that old people have no business as president (a point with which I agree) that the standard by which you judge them is not a standard you would ever apply to yourself.
You are being played my friends.
Did we watch the same debate?? I saw and heard him. He’s not fit to be anything but a retiree. I’ll vote for him but I fear many won’t.
Now if you criticize Biden on Lemmy, half of the people will downvote you and call you a Russian bot.
Criticize Biden all you want. But he’s not stepping down and there isn’t a good alternative this late in the game. The DNC fucked up by allowing him to run the first time and then again by not demanding he not seek re-election. Just like they fucked up by fucking over Sanders.
And yet… these are the cards we have and we’re not getting another hand. It sucks.
They could run newsom or Harris. It’s not too late.
Worldwide website. The world leans farther left than Biden (except for the oppressive “bad” countries, most of which censor internet use, or block open communication sites like these). American conservatives are the lunatic fringe Right comparatively. I dont think bashing anti-Biden is too productive, because it doesnt allow for legitimate discourse. Given the current state of affairs, I can understand it strategically…but it leads down a bad road.
Now who is Russian bot?
Yeah dumbass, an avowed socialist for years now, been watching the GOP propaganda machine since it was cool to be on Fark for fucks sake and NOW they finally turned my frog gay. Makes perfect sense!
Wake the fuck up you white moderate, your cope will eat us all.
I’m curious if you are an asshole in real life or just online where it’s safe.
Did you watch the debate? Can you explain to me what Biden meant by “We finally beat Medicare!” What was he trying to say? Was he trying to say “We finally beat Medicare for all!”? Because that would make sense to me.
He fucked up. And the DNC fucked up by allowing him to run a second time (or a first, in my book). But people are human, shockingly. They do fuck up and they do say incoherent things (you’ll understand when you get older, lol) and I’d rather have someone who spews gobblygook once in a while than someone who lies incessantly and spews gobblygook all the time.
Show me an alternative. Show me a viable path forward that ensures a second Trump presidency doesn’t happen. If you haven’t got that then there’s really nothing more to discuss. We’ll all hold our noses and vote for Biden and then raise hell to get a more reasonable candidate in 2028. Because at least then there will be a 2028 election.
The issue here is that Biden has to compete for the morons in the middle who somehow can’t decide between an obvious traitor and a mediocre democrat. So he simply must perform better. The standard is truly higher for him because it takes a lot to sway the mentally defective undecideds.
That is not all where the discussion is right now. The discussion is whether Biden is the best person we have. We still can put someone else forth and now it’s the time to do it.
I don’t disagree at all that Biden should fuck off. But the point remains that the standard is higher for him than for the traitor. I was pointing out what is plain to see for the other commentator.
Of course, we have higher standards. That’s what separates us from them.
The talking heads said the Democratic Party rules only allow it if he steps down. Not sure if that’s correct. But either way someone needs to do something fast to right this ship.
The DNC went to court and said they’re not obligated to follow their own rules. The judge dismissed the case against them based on that.
If they turn around and claim they have a legal obligation to follow their own rules it would mean they perjured themselves in court.
If you’re referring to the “uncommitted” votes in the primaries those people aren’t in the middle bud.
One bad night? You’re joking, right? Or have you convinced yourselves this inane rambling isn’t a real, long term issue?
Or have you convinced yourselves this inane rambling isn’t a real, long term issue?
Inane rambling? You are talking about Trump, right?
Trump’s faults are obvious to all of us. Even when I talk to Trump supporters at work they recognize it and mostly just don’t care.
Gaslight, deny, deflect. Anything to avoid facing how fucked we are.
Gaslight, deny, deflect. Anything to avoid facing how fucked we are.
I didn’t say were weren’t fucked to some degree of fucked. But I’m also not gonna blow it so out of proportion that I’m paralyzed and do nothing. Or worse, cry and moan and cause others to do nothing. Literally people are taking one fuck up and forgetting everything else. It’s completely buying into the false narrative pushed by the GOP and ignores all the good Biden has done and the fact that 99% of his other speeches and debates have been completely fine. Many people have been… well, played.
The only reasonable course of action at this point is to stop whining, vote for Biden, and then raise hell to demand accountability from the DNC. Make it 100% clear that we will accept nothing less than a stellar candidate in 2028. At that point the danger from Trump will have largely passed and we can move forward.
It’s not one mistake. It’s four years of obvious decline being put on stage where people have a harder time covering it up.
I don’t know if anybody wants you to worry to indecision, but it sure would’ve been nice if this had been acknowledged when it might’ve been repairable.
You’re not going to get any accountability my friend.
It’s not one mistake. It’s four years of obvious decline being put on stage where people have a harder time covering it up.
He’s an old man. Congrats on figuring that out.
As I can attest, older people in general are a little bumbly but that’s not a predictor of mental acuity or ability. It’s certainly not an indicator of dementia on it’s own.
I’ve watched many of his speeches, press conferences, etc. and I see little to no evidence of cognitive decline. What I do see is people buying into that narrative because, like all good propaganda, it taps right into their preexisting biases.
Can you help me understand what Biden meant when he shouted “We finally beat Medicare!” I found that confusing.
Can you help me understand what Biden meant when he shouted “We finally beat Medicare!” I found that confusing.
Have you never once in your life misspoken? Have you ever been in a super stressful situation where you knew you were being judged in every possible way by a large number of people? I confess, I have. And I have screwed up badly a number of times. Forgot what I was saying, said the wrong words… all kinds of things.
Thankfully, I was not judged on my stumbling over my words but by the substance of what I had to say and the totality of my contributions. I prefer to judge others similarly.
So, you’re saying that’s all it takes for you to consider a convicted conman for president instead? Sound reasonable.
You may not be happy with your options, but the choice is abundantly clear.
Stop fuckin strawmanning, jesus
Technically I’m voting for Biden, in reality I’m voting against Trump. I really wish I had a better option…
Outside of voting, you have options. I’m not American, but I’d advise any communists to vote Biden simply because the repression under Trump could get really ugly, hindering any proper organisation. Just view it as what I think it also actually is: A cynical, pragmatic move to save you and other working people from more open repression, nothing more.
But before and after voting: Put your energy into unions like the IWW, into neighbourhood organisations for mutual aid, into community defense like the SRA or Redneck Revolt, into antifascist organisation, into refining your own position and presenting it to others. Create networks and connections. All preventing Trump is doing is buying time for now to do exactly that. Things will only get worse in the decades ahead, with no end in sight for the climate catastrophe and further decay of capitalism - and laying the groundwork of actually being able to do something is critically important right now, in my opinion.
Of course everyone is in the end their own master when it comes to decisions like this. Just - remember that by not voting in this specific election you also aren’t changing anything. And while I fully understand the desire to organise for a third party, they have been marginalised effectively, at least I personally don’t think electoral politics will bring any relevant changes, one way or the other. They are just about who carries the whip used against you, and in this case if the are openly and harshly, or covertly and less efficiently using it.
That all being said - I think a few people here overestimate the amount of tankies and communists that won’t vote Biden. The group is marginal in the big scheme of things. If Biden loses, you can be certain, they were not responsible, they are most likely less than 1% of voters. Personally, I’d blame the corporate core of the Democratic party and middle class liberals for being out of touch with reality.
If Biden loses, you can be certain, they were not responsible, they are most likely less than 1% of voters
Nah, they’ll blame us the same way they blame us for losing the 2016 general election. We are simultaneously too small to matter but able to turn the tide of the largest election in the United States.
Don’t we all? … I think very few people would choose Biden absent it being necessary to avoid the hellscape guaranteed by not voting for him
I’m voting party for socialism and liberation and you can too. They’re running Claudia de la Cruz on a platform of Palestinian statehood and an end to arms shipments to Israel.
For me there’s no better time to start building a new American political formation. If the democrats wise up and snap left when they see the third party/lack of turnout then that’s fine too.
This vote is far too important to protest vote. Especially now that I live in a swing state.
Voting for what you actually want to happen is literally the only way to communicate your needs to political parties that they actually listen to.
There are people whose whole education and job is just to know how many people in a given district that the party can pick up by adopting aspects of a particular platform.
Tell them! Tell them that you won’t vote for them unless they take up the antiwar, Medicare for all torch! Tell them that they can’t get your district without a housing guarantee and free school lunch! Tell them to stop the genocide in the only way they listen to!
It’s not a protest to use your vote.
And that’s great, that’s what I do in the primaries. I’m not about to risk a Trump presidency just to place a vote for a 3rd party that I probably also don’t actually like. Just plug the nose and stop the larger threat.
Oh well, if you clearly communicate your needs during the primary and fall in line for the general then why wouldn’t the democrats reward your loyalty by adopting your positions!
How clear and transparent would the upcoming trump presidency have to be for you to jump ship from the democrats and take up a position that they have to aim for in 2028?
That’s not called a protest vote. That’s just called a vote.
Whatever helps you sleep at night if Trump gets elected.
Thats why Biden stepping down is so important right now. They need to get guys like this poster to vote D this time. Any generic dem with a pulse will do that.
Its the partys fault if they cant get an easy vote, not the voter’s
Its the parts fault if they cant get an easy vote, not the voter’s
Ultimately, yes that’s the case. It’s the candidates job to attract voters.
So, take this point of view as what it is: a view on the situation from an outsider, I am not American, I am a German communist. While I do probably look more closely at American politics than most likely the average American simply from being interested in politics to a pathological degree, I might not have the full picture of an American who is also as interested in politics.
I think in this particular moment, as much as the Democrats do their best to antagonise you, as much as you are correct that someone like Biden will continue with the same status quo bullshit that created the situation to begin with, as much as he won’t be helping the people suffering from (neo)-colonialism in a meaningful way overseas - I don’t think that this particular election is the time to vote third party. The chance may come, and best then to do it not as individuals based on your personal conscience, but as an organised group, with concrete messaging communicated. And even in other elections and outside this vote, organising for a third party - while I personally don’t have a lot of hope for electoral politics - is certainly better than investing energy into the Democratic party, whose supporters seem to have no problems spewing hatred towards you for not agreeing with their party line and view of reality.
But I think underestimating Trump could be genuinely dangerous. Not because he will “ruin America” or anything like that. Simply, because he will be in a position to dial up repression, potentially leaving you with a situation in 2-4 years, where the party you voted for has to move underground, either having gotten outlawed or further marginalised and infiltrated. The situation looks critical enough to me, that under a Trump presidency, unions and leftist orgs will face open persecution much more than under someone like Biden - who is admittedly bad enough. Persecution up to outright criminalising them, to encouraging right-wing militias to kill their members with a slap on the wrist as a consequence or no legal repercussions at all. Yes, I do think that is unfortinately a realisitic possibility. And at this point, I don’t think leftist orgs in the US have the resilience yet to efficiently organise in the underground.
That being said, I won’t tell you a vitriolic “you will be at fault” if you choose to vote and organise as you want to. I do also see advantages, like getting visibility for your issues and potentially by reaching certain threshholds getting public funding support and the likes (that exists in the US too, right?). But I’d still advise it in this election - as shitty and cynical as it is - to vote for the old fart that doesn’t swing the whip of the state as hard on your back as the one that might outright strangle you with it. Getting a proper communist, grassroots organisation running in the United States is important for the whole world, and I fear it will be impossible, or at least much, much harder under Trump (mostly, again, because there are no proper structures in place to move into illegality and organising underground, from everything I can tell.)
it’s already like that.
How does de la Cruz intend to stop arms shipments without any congressional representation to push legislation to do so?
If Congress says money must be spent on sending Israel weapons, then the president has to follow that in some capacity. The president could try to stop shipments, but that would result in a swift court case, and the president would be compelled to continue sending weapons. The executive branch has discretion in how to do so, but it unfortunately does not have the authority to end it.
You need Congress if you’re going to stop all shipments. Alternatively I suppose you could try to have the judiciary in your favor, but that means de la Cruz now needs the Supreme Court on her side.
It’s a complete misconception in American society and politics that the president can do anything. They’re certainly the most powerful single individual, but Congress is still much stronger.
The Party for Socialism and Liberation would be much better served trying to win Congressional races so they can push for bills to end weapon shipments. If they could take a number of strong Republican districts with their message, it would give them a lot more influence.
lets say youre right, and the president can’t do anything to stop arms shipments. simply forcing the (it wouldn’t be swift, the supreme court works on a set schedule) case would be better than rubberstamping the appropriations of our genocidal congress.
simply forcing the supreme court to rule would be powerful!
make them put their names on their genocide! even if the executive fails wouldn’t it be better to actually try everything to stop the genocide than to simply say “nothing i could do!”?
of course, if the executive branch were so weak there’d be no reason to fear project 2025, but i’ll leave that alone.
but there are tons of ways to hamstring aid, usually it’s not explicitly listed what aid will be sent in a bill, that’s left up to the executive. in that case de la cruz could send nonlethal military supplies like food, medical and replacement parts.
in the case that aid is specified, it can be slow walked as part of a peace deal, it can be deactivated or simply sent during adverse conditions that will ensure it never arrives.
psl has been running in state, local and congressional elections since 2008.
its astounding to me how many people reply to posts like this saying “you can’t win, so dont try!” or “its going to be hard and people will oppose you, so give up!”.
What I’ve seen so many people not understand with the situation we are in right now, is that we can’t fix our current situation in one election. Everything is far to tucked up for that, so the best that can be done is vote for the least fucked up option and work to improve things. People refusing to participate or vote for the candidate who is unfortunately our best option currently (biden) are doing more damage than the people voting for the fascist party. The perfect candidate/option does not exist and never will (obviously not saying everything biden has done has been good).
People do understand that concept, but it’s literally what Democrats have been doing for the past 40 years and it has put us right here where we are right now. The “lesser of two evils” thing just has no propellant left, no one is buying that line anymore. Neoliberalism needs to go before Democrats can start winning again.
You need to understand that people have been saying “just put the neolibs in power again and we’ll work to improve things” every election cycle, and now we are closer to fascism than we’ve literally ever been. You at least understand why people see that strategy as a failure, right? Like, you understand why no one believes it anymore?
A vote for neoliberals is a vote to not have fascism for four more years. America’s voting system doesn’t allow the never-have-fascism votes to be pooled with the delay-fascism votes, so unless there’s a decent chance for a mass swing of voters from delay-fascism to never-have-fascism, trying to encourage a small-scale swing only makes immediate fascism more likely by weakening the only thing with a chance to delay it.
If the plan is to try and encourage the Democrats to have primaries that actually have the power to move the party left, now is not the time to withhold a vote in protest as there’s a good chance that even if it did convince them, there’d never be another election that wasn’t rigged so they’d lose it no matter how popular they were.
A vote for neoliberals is a vote to not have fascism for four more years.
That’s an extremely hard case to make at this point though when the “not” fascist guy is funding a genocide and refusing to entertain the measures we’d need to take to actually take the fight to the fascists (ex. Championing an effort to pack the supreme court). Neoliberals are not truly acting like democracy is on the line, they say it a lot but it’s not what their actions communicate, which makes it difficult to believe they’d ever stop obstructing progress.
Neoliberals don’t stop or stall fascists by getting into power – they just soft sell it and give the general public time to acclimate to the slipping of the Overton window. They do this in service of corporate interests rather than theocracy the way the far-right does but it ends us up in the same place.
If the plan is to try and encourage the Democrats to have primaries that actually have the power to move the party left, now is not the time to withhold a vote in protest as there’s a good chance that even if it did convince them, there’d never be another election that wasn’t rigged so they’d lose it no matter how popular they were.
Now is the time that the Democratic establishment chooses to try to strong arm the left into voting for them, they do this every election; claim the sky is falling and that we must vote for them or else. So I guess my view is, if they have assessed that they can risk playing a game of chicken, so can voters.
I understand Project 2025 and its seriousness, but that problem is going to be there every election from here until such a time that the GOP dissolves. I’m skeptical that 4 years will allow them to achieve everything they want to without sweeping the house and senate too. The president cannot legally be crowned king, and if they try to do that perhaps that is what it will take to actually radicalize the self-sedated upper middle-class liberals and political fence-sitters.
I’m sick of defensive leadership, and any offensive needs to start with attacking the Democratic structure that’s making the party so ineffectual and complicit. More time is not enough in my opinion, people were talking about GOP plans to capture the supreme court as far back as Bush Jr. and giving Democrats wins achieved nothing. They need to be forced to take it seriously and I just don’t see that happening without some pain (for them and, unfortunately, us).
Forget a perfect candidate. Just go back and watch the 2012 debate and both Obama and Mitt Romney were infinitely better than Joe Biden or Trump.
But they never told me which of them was the better golfer.
God it feels stupid to write that and it being an actual argument during a presidential debate.
I mean all the concerned people could take to the streets right now.
The DNC wants you to believe that all you can do is cast your vote for something every other year and just take the options presented. In that sense they are worse than the Reps who encourage their base to be active for more than just the ballots and it is working.
Especially now the Dems give me huge 1984 vibes in how the individual should handle politics relative to the party.
so the best that can be done is vote for the least fucked up option and work to improve things.
Democrats were good at the first part, but not the second. I remember lots of Dems saying “Vote for Biden, and then we’ll hold his feet to the fire!” Well, there was no “holding his feet to the fire”, because that’s seen as enabling Trump.
The perfect candidate/option does not exist and never will
Yes, but there are candidates who are better, such as Jill Stein and Cornel West. You can’t vote for a perfect candidate, but you can vote for the best candidate.
You might as well vote for Barney the dinosaur for all the good it will do.
A vote for a candidate who cannot win is wasted.
No candidate can win, unless you vote for them. That’s the entire point of voting.
A vote for a candidate who cannot win is wasted.
Then it sounds like moderates need to be convinced a vote for a pro-corporate, genocide supporting, establishment geriatric is a waste of a vote.
wait, that is both of them! So, the felon adulterer serial liar narcissist one or the one that is older by two years and doesn’t know where he is or what he is saying sometimes?
Right? Everything you can say negative about Biden can be said about Trump and Trump will be the worse offender of the two. Biden does have positive qualities, which I honestly cannot think can be said about Trump. He is a sushi roll consisting entirely of turd.
And you are happily imprisoning yourself into believing that the system is right to only offer you these two as candidates. If everyone that was progressive and unhappy with Biden would vote for Stein, then she could win. It is the mere talk about her having no chance of winning and the vote being wasted that keeps people in line to take the system as is.
I see the same arguments made against voting for smaller parties in my country where there is a minimum % they need to achieve before getting parliament seats. It is a system designed to preserve the current political elites with their network to the economic and cultural elites against ideas and movements taking a foothold.
Everyone sees what Biden is and what he stands for. If everyone who disagrees with that would take to the streets and demand the DNC to hold a real primary, or better yet demand fundamental changes to the political system, you would be surprised what is possible.
Stein isn’t in the ballot in enough states to win the electoral college. She literally cannot win.
The difference being people voted for Biden in the 2020 primaries over much better people. I’m not going to reward that behavior again.
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“Everybody who disagrees with me is a tankie!”
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You need to also vote for someone who actually has a chance to win. Voting for a better candidate who realistically can’t win in elections like this were someone like Trump could win is basically handing Trump the win. His base doesn’t think for themselves, and would vote for him if he killed their family in front of them. I wish to God we had Bernie instead of Biden, but Bernie wouldn’t have won.
I live in a blue state, so using that logic, I shouldn’t vote at all. Voting for Trump or Biden is a waste of time, because the state will go blue regardless.
His base doesn’t think for themselves, and would vote for him if he killed their family in front of them.
If Biden killed your family in front of you, would you still vote for him?
I wish to God we had Bernie instead of Biden, but Bernie wouldn’t have won.
What convinced you of this?
are doing more damage than the people voting for the fascist party.
Hooooooly fuck this gets 27 upvotes? There it is folks. Leftists are doing more damage by refusing to vote than the people who stormed the capitol. This hot take brought to you by lemmy.
1000 people stormed the capitol. Allowing trump to win is far far far worse. Federal judge appointments alone are worth far more.
Yes, Hillary and the DNC allowed Trump to win by ignoring their base and chasing imaginary “swing” voters. And now they’re doing it again.
33 after I just upvoted. Vote for the Joe.
Not having enough time and voting for the least fucked candidate is old and tired. How long do we vote for the Turd over the Douche instead of voting for someone that we actually believe in?
Also, I can’t justify genocide.
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If Project 2025 is successful, we won’t ever have another democratic election. Our election is going to work like Russia’s does after that point, and we will have a dictator of some kind that pretends to hold elections.
So, unfortunately, this is not the way.
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You are very right, and I feel your pain. I’m not judging you for feeling that way, at all.
I just don’t think that abstaining from voting is going to work in favor of fixing this issue. If anything we need to keep voting to keep the country as left as it can be for now, until we can shift the two parties we are forced to pick from farther to the left.
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Why you gotta smoke the UAW president, Shawn Fain?
People refusing to participate or vote for the candidate who is unfortunately our best option currently (biden) are doing more damage than the people voting for the fascist party.
Incredible take. “Say what you will about fascists, at least they support the two party system.”
Right? Who knew refusing to vote for someone you don’t support is more damaging than storming the capitol.
These people have truly gone off the deep end. I don’t even know what to say. How do you reason with that? I can barely even comprehend it.
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Just because you are still voting Biden, doesn’t mean you don’t care.
It just means you still don’t want the raving malignant narcissist Trump.
Any somewhat normal person would be the obvious choice over Trump. Any person who is not clearly a traitor to USA and Democracy would be preferable to Trump.I don’t know about the “traitor” thing. Edward Snowden would definitely make a better president than Trump.
Snowden verifiably paid a higher price while serving the interests of the people. Sacrificed far more than Trump ever has or will. He was a fairly connected govt contractor living in Hawaii, living a good life before he had to flee.
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I’m voting against Trump. Not thrilled to have a president who might have to have his Oval Office relocated to a nursing home.
I’m voting for the man with one foot in the coffin that is not trump, but it doesn’t matter because I don’t live in a swing state.
it doesn’t matter because I don’t live in a swing state.
Not true. It absolutely does matter.
This is what Germany in 1929 was - without social media.
Yeah, I feel like people are freaking out and ignoring that Biden (and Trump) are largely the people they surround themselves with, and the policies they push.
They’ve both been president for years.
The boyfriend last night was surprised I didn’t watch the debate.
“They’ve both been president. I was paying attention. I know what their presidencies will be like. Why listen to them talk about it?”
That, and we both know how terribly uninformative debates are. I got similar criticism for skipping it but like, we know their policies.
I was talking to some friends and I don’t get independents at this point. If you don’t know who you’re voting for and need to see this debate to decide, you haven’t been paying attention to the past 8 years.
That’s a very good point. The president is in charge of appointing a lot of other people that are more important for making decisions.
Well when the only other vote is fascism, hate, and bullying… Yeah we’re gonna vote for the not ridiculous choice.
Biden loses
OP blames the 5 tankies actually living in the USA for voting 3rd party
Íf he wore a clown suit and only spoke Pig-Latin during the debate… considering the alternative
He would STILL be the only viable candidate worth voting for
