Roses are red
Violets are blue
Oversimplified political apathy
Is what gave you Trump 2
That’s what happens when lobbies can just buy your politicians
here’s an example for you to drive home why sentiment like this is dumb and creates false equivalencies. when I was 14, I worked at a grocery store. there were two managers that I would get scheduled with. they both sucked and were awful human beings. however, one was a known child predator. which one do you think I’d rather get scheduled with?
funniest comment section of all time. my country truly will never change for the better.
It’s okay to hate both.
And it’s ok to strategically vote for the least bad option rather than empowering the most bad option while still acknowledging the system is broken
But I don’t want to vote for trump hes doing genocide
Absolutely agree with this statement.
Much less ok to pretend both are the same
Go back to reddit.
Correct, it’s not pretending but the truth
Nazis vs Nazi collaborators. Yes they’re different, but both deserve the firing squad.
This “both sides” is bullshit when you are getting a train run on you by the Republicans…
And the leader of the Democrats describes his job as “keeping the left pro Israel”.
I’m an Independent. But there’s no “leader” of the Democrats, it’s a big-tent party. Chuck is head of the group of Democratic senators, but he doesn’t dictate things outside of Senate business and we don’t blindly all follow everything he says. That’s the difference between electing public servants and people in a cult.
EDIT: Downvote all you want, this is a simple fact. You’re allowed to just want to be mad! But I don’t know why people click the “down” button just because they don’t like what was said… Has anyone used actual logic and facts to disprove me? Of course not…
The only time Democrats won’t fall in line is when they have to vote for Republican budget bills.
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Correct, but still not even close to the same thing. More of this “balanced” stuff.
Anywho on the plus side, he’s getting wrecked in the polls vs AOC who’s looking to take his place though.
How isn’t it the same thing? Supporting Israel is supporting Israel if you put a Donkey on your branding or an elephant.
Genocide apologist
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No u
Interesting.
Obama dropped an average of 80 bombs per day on the ME and North Africa during his presidency. The number of civilians murdered is impossible to calculate.
For a USAmerican(or any other person), their primary concern would be their own safety, right?
Unless they can form/support a major third party, they are effectively forced to a two-choice system
The USA is not the world, and its citizens should start looking towards the welfare of the people their country murders.
True
Choosing not to participate in the two choice system is how you get a third choice btw
What would the steps be for that?
I’m not USAmerican, so I don’t know much of the base level stuff there. I think they have a green party or so. But are they a good/distinct enough choice?
Yet clearly that did not fucking happen and people are STILL getting genocided on top of many many more shitty things. Life is worse for everyone now congrats.
When both choices explicitely lead to mass murder its mandatory for any ethical person to do all they can to make some third outcome happen.
Voting quietly for what may be slightly less mass murder but certainly is still mass murder is a pathetic and shameful way to chart a course forward. A handful of us have more dignity than that.
Choosing not to participate is how you become dominated by one of the parties, possibly the one you like the least. The way to actually be able to participate is by trying to change the system itself. By that I mean changing First Past the Post voting in each state, as this is the means through which other political parties would be able to spring up. Another option is to run for government yourself as an actor for change within one of the major political parties.
Make no mistake, changing the system is possible. Alaska and Maine have both done it already. Other states can do it too. I think trying alternative voting systems such as ranked robin voting, STAR voting, score voting, or even ranked choice voting would be a major step towards other political parties and to move away from the most the least liked candidates winning elections.
I’m not sure why this was voted down, real lasting solutions require hard work and organizing to make change. Mind you, changing the system of how we vote alone isn’t the end step, but a starting place for change.
Are you denying that the Dems are shit? Just because the Reps are worse and currently in power?
What kind of an argument is that supposed to be?
What are you talking about the initial argument is completely insane to be begin with. I think Biden came into office and reduce child poverty or hunger or something by half as his first action.
We’re gonna compare that to Trump destroying the economy, removing due process, open up national parks to logging, letting DOGE cut departments with corruption, invading other countries?
Biden gleefully engaged in one of the worst genocides of the era. He should be in a cell in the Hague.
I agree I think it’s fucking horrible and I think Chuck Schumer and everyone on any side of the political aisle that upheld this should be in a jail cell too.
100% agreed. I’m forgetting my history though, what did they used to do with genociders and war criminals? Something about a rope or a wall.
And its a little past time that the entire Democratic party acknowledge that what Biden did was genocide, and what Harris was proposing was continuing with it.
Dems shouldnt measure ourselves by what republicans do, if they ever want to win an election again.
Lol, while technically true there’s a big picture you’re missing… The start of his presidency did co-incide with some things like the child tax credit etc. that did drop the official measurement to a historic low of 5.2% in 2021, but was then quickly repealed by bipartisan support in Congress causing it to skyrocket to 12.4% in 2022.
In the US the child poverty rate had been slowly, but steadily, declining since the peak of the great recession… Until the Biden presidency circa ~2022 at which point it skyrocketed by the end of his presidency reaching ~2012 levels.
While technically true that “Biden came into office and reduce[d] child poverty [sic] by half as his first action.” It ignores that immediately afterwards he did “destroy the economy”. Don’t get me started on ‘removing due process, open up national parks, cutting departments with corruption, invading other countries’ because also yes!
Not to say Trump is better (we can all agree fuck that guy and all his cronies), but Jim Crow Joe is/was also evil, you’ve just been tricked into thinking otherwise…
Thanks for replying, I just recalled this:
Now we can say he failed but I can’t say that specific act is evil. Palestine on the other hand … ☠️
Like, I get your viewpoints and you guys think I’m trying to bury any negative viewpoints of the democratic party or that I’m brainwashed. Which is funny to me because I hate the establishment Dems. I just think posts saying both suck and attacking the Dems aren’t helpful because they currently have no power. The other party is causing a lot of damage and there seems to be no stopping them so kicking the feckless Dems when they’re down seems weird to me.
I also think the democratic party needs to be ousted by progressive candidates that have a good vision for the future. I’m not gonna lie though I don’t see it happening. The establishment Dems aren’t gonna bow down. Also, I see so many protests happening and although AOC and Bernie have made the news I don’t think I see the Dem leadership taking advantage of this and putting up a solid front either, like wtf is going on? I’m not sure it’s the coverage but it really seems like they’re lost.
The difference is the viewpoint:
attacking the Dems aren’t helpful because they currently have no power. The other party is causing a lot of damage and there seems to be no stopping them
If you buy into the underlying premises of how a liberal democracy functions (liberal used here as a technical term, not as a perjorative) then the only ones who have the power to stop the other party is the Dems and they actively choose not to. They’re neither down, nor out they’re doing their job of controlled opposition exactly as they are supposed to.
I still don’t like saying how they’re both the same because I fundamentally don’t believe that to my core (ie if they had all three branches we wouldn’t be talking about all this current mayhem).
However, I think I understand your point and I agree with it.
So thanks again!
They aren’t the same, one’s a sword and one’s a shield. The shield can’t effectively stab, but the sword can’t either if it’s forced to parry instead.
I engaged because it seemed like there was agreement, just miscommunication. Glad I was able to help cut through it :D. Appreciate you!
What are you talking about the initial argument is completely insane to be begin with. I think Biden came into office and reduce child poverty or hunger or something by half as his first action.
Are you having a stroke? I don’t follow your point and/or syntax.
We’re gonna compare that to Trump destroying the economy, removing due process, open up national parks to logging, letting DOGE cut departments with corruption, invading other countries?
What do you want from me? Obviously we agree that Trump is worse than the Dems.
That still doesn’t make the Dems “not bad”.
Nobody said the Dems were perfect OR not bad through the chain.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence - is what this post is.
Nobody said the Dems were perfect OR not bad through the chain.
Never claimed that someone claimed that. Again: how is the original post wrong?
Two parties in a two party system is no case of “apples and oranges”. That’s as close to a fair comparison as you’re gonna get.
Ghonorrea and pancreatic cancer are two things I don’t want to have. Is this “false equivalency” as well?
Two parties in a two party system is no case of “apples and oranges”. That’s as close to a fair comuarison as yo’'re gonna get
stroke much?
seriously, this isn’t a “fair comparison” because it doesn’t address any sort of nuance nor is it supposed to. It’s supposed to make people go: “yeah the dems suck too” rather than understand anything about what’s going on.
If you claim to be on the same page then whatever, we can just agree on our core points leave it at that.
stroke much?
I guess you never make typos, then. Huh? /s
seriously, this isn’t a “fair comparison” because it doesn’t address any sort of nuance nor is it supposed to.
I’m sorry that I slandered ghonorrea by comparing it to pancreatic cancer. Clearly I forgot the nUaNcE between these two horrible sicknesses. /s
Wait. How can there be any “nuance” if you can’t compare the two parties? Is a comparison of apples with oranges flawed because of the “nuance”?
It’s supposed to make people go: “yeah the dems suck too” rather than understand anything about what’s going on.
That’s what you think the intent is. I think that it’s supposed to state that the US democratic system is not suitable for a fair and equitable world and the Dems are not the solution of the mess the US is in.
You can have your own interpretation but don’t assume that this was OP’s intent.
For sure, the republicans are worst.
But the dems are still not good.
Americans have no representation at all.
After the train run on you by democrats…
You really don’t get it, huh?
People heard that shit last time, and they voted democrat, and Biden won. And ABSOLUTELY NOTHING changed.
At the end of the day, the rich got richer and the poor got poorer, just like they did with trump, and with Obama, and with every single president who has taken office in god knows how many decades.
And still you’re here yapping “oh noes the horrors, vote Dems”.
Bro, the Dems aren’t LISTENING! Get a Bernie up there, or an AOC, or anyone that the people actually believe will do anything other than feeding the same interests they have been feeding.
And if you’re too thick to realize that, at least you’re not alone, the whole DNC is right there with you.
When it comes to foreign policy and making the rich richer? Absolutely. The only potential difference is on some social issues.
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I can’t deal with US politics right now and this thread.
I’m fucking Canadian and people upvoting this both sides nonsense is getting my blood boiling.
I thought this enlightened centrist shit was over with but people are bringing it up like they’re some next-level IQ genius. When in reality they’re trying their to push people to the right (whether they understand it or not).
When is your country going to return the land they stole to its indigenous peoples? When is the US democratic party going to stop supporting the genocide of Palestine?
If its people not voting for the US democratic party, rather than either of the above issues that “gets your blood boiling”, you might need to re-evaluate which side of the white supremacist line you’re on.
You think neoliberalism is on the left? Well, in this case yes we’re pushing people to the “right” if your scale is inverted
I’m sorry that genocide is okay to you but you draw the line at bad optics. That sounds like a you issue. Genocide apologist don’t tend to be the sharpest tools in the shed though.
whether they understand it or not
If such a thing can be done without understanding, how do you know that you aren’t the one who has been pushed to the right and that you aren’t doing the work of dragging others along with you?
I’m fucking Canadian
So you probably dont even understand the full context of what you’re talking about.
Arent there other countries political websites you can go bother people on? Try Australia, your fellow commonwealth country (sorry australians). Theres plenty of other places to be a touriust with strong opinions about other peoples governments.
What does you being Canadian have to do with anything?
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ICE and deportations grew massively during Obama’s presidency.
By the numbers: Under the Obama administration, total ICE deportations were above 385,000 each year in fiscal years 2009-2011, and hit a high of 409,849 in fiscal 2012. The numbers dropped to below 250,000 in fiscal years 2015 and 2016.
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blueMAGA fascists don’t think non-Americans are human
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Least incoherent fascist
When it involves citizens, it’s a travesty. When, it’s literally everyone else (the overwhelming fucking majority affected by ICE deportations), it’s acceptable collateral, bonus brownie points when it’s done by the Blue team.
Get a grip.
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Did you already forget that it was you that dismissed the deportation statistics posted above during one of Team Blue’s occupation with “ok but this time it’s Team Red and it involves our citizens! This is worse”? So when the Blues do it without citizens, somehow that’s a “fine price to pay”? Is it perhaps, bipartisan unity we’re witnessing? No, it couldn’t be!
Do you understand the underlying racism with that sentiment, and that for as long as you don’t, that you’ll find it difficult to get a grip with reality?
Genocide apologist
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You don’t realise it, but people like you would vote for hitler or claim hitler was the same as other parties.
Lol, what a fucking stupid insult “oh, you oppose genocide? Well guess what, in my imagination, you vote for Hitler!”
Meanwhile, in the actual real world, you support actual genocide.
I don’t recall the democrats supporting rapists… Or threatening others.
Ignoring the accusations against Biden himself, systemic rape is a huge part of the genocide that the Democrats support.
You’ve literally got Trump now trying to become third term president to avoid jail. It’s a dictatorship mate
K, you were already committing genocide, I don’t really care about your precious standards and norms.
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You’re targeting 1 issue specifically
That one issue: the wholesale extermination of an entire country.
My point is, Trump is actually behaving eeringly similar to Hitler at times.
So were the democrats, when they committed genocide.
Trump is literally asking Israel to clear out so he can steal the land for trump hotels
Israel was already clearing out the land, with the full support of the Democrats, you only care when it’s Trump doing it though.
They’re NOTHING alike.
They’re both genocidal psychopaths
Trump is literally committing crimes against US people, and tried to deport LEGAL citizens
Sorry, I forgot that blueMAGA people like you are hardcore fascists who think only Americans are human.
Now, it was discovered he deported people who shouldn’t have been, and the supreme court can’t get them back.
That’s not really comparable to murdering hundreds of thousands of people who shouldn’t have been. Oh sorry, I forgot, only Americans are people.
You’re so focused on the 1 issue
Again, that one issue: the mass slaughter of an entire people.
and the good things they’ve done
“At least Hitler made the trains run on time”
that you’re ignoring the 50000 other ones Trump is doing
No, that’s you projecting. You’re the one who ignores the evil one side does.
Tim walz was literally bragging about feeding school kids.
Tim Walz proclaimed that the expansion of Israel was an “absolute fundamental necessity”, actively supporting the murder of tens of thousands of school kids.
Trump did nothing but talk about himself and “crooked hilary”, “sleepy joe”, etc
“I can accept genocide, but I draw the line at being rude”.
Seriously listen to yourself, you’re more upset by Trump bragging than you are about mass graves full of mutilated civilians and mass rape camps. What is wrong with you!
Usa is worse than hitler
Which is and which isn’t? Who’s political ad was this again about backing the toughest boarder bill ever: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2F9qGxTKcU?
The funniest thing about non Americans is that they think most of us don’t fucking know this. It’s so annoying
Finally someone who speaks the truth, however humans are a lost case, you can’t un-slave mentality without changing the people.
Americans think their favorite political sports team cares about them like the stripper actually loved them. No, you just gave them what they wanted and as soon as you’re out of sight, they’ll forget you and keep doing their job.
For strippers it’s doing a workout for a living and being proud of their bodies. For politicians it’s gaslighting the public into thinking they’re the good guys as they socially murder at home and sweep up blood abroad.
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You got a real shelf to be shoving things off
Honestly, I read this thread and can’t comprehend how a civilization as advanced as the United States of America thinks that defending a binary choice of democracy is a good thing to do… It’s impossible to represent a country with a few million people like that, imagine ~300M. Anyway, keep going at each other’s throats for your party color… smh.
It’s not an advanced civilization, they have slavery enshrined in constitution.
What part of the Constitution are you referring to?
13th Amendment I assume. Slavery is allowed as punishment for any crime.
“indentured servitude” is the euphemism they use.
Obviously the bestest democracy in the history of the entire universe doesn’t have slavery.…huh, I haven’t noticed that…
I don’t blame you, I was educated that it abolished slavery. But there’s a very big “except”. It was partially added to help sway the Confederate states to make them happy that they can keep slaves if they find enough things to arrest them for.
It’s part of why Jim Crow laws happened. And it’s exactly why America has the highest amount of people in jail than any other nation. Slaves are cheap labor.
Neither party will ever willingly give up the two party system, as they both benefit from it. At some point Americans need to start backing third parties or everything will just continue to go in circles indefinitely.
That, and do some non-electoral things if you’re picking up what i’m putting down
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Good thing chuck schumer and the dems are out there leading the resistance by… uhh… making sure the left is pro-genocide and sending record levels of bombs to conduct said genocide. Hell yeah dawg that shit’s awesome and exactly what we need from the people who totally oppose Hitler 2 in office and will do everything in their power to stop him
Downvotes are disabled on my instance; multiple people think you wrote something inane. I have no problem replying to you telling you that you live in a dictatorship of capital where both sides are the same but you are so propagandized and ignorant you can’t even see the truth right in front of your nose. One side enables the other, the US functions as a whole. The democracy there is kay fabe and predetermined. You don’t get a vote for the board members of Goldman Sachs, Citigroup, Blackstone, Raytheon etc.
It blows my mind that even now, there are people like you who claim they can’t tell the difference between Biden and Trump.
You have to remember that, unlike you, some people consider the lives of foreigners to be worth as much as the lives of Americans
It blows my mind that you interpreted what he said that way.
I quote, absolutely directly:
both sides are the same
It’s a breathtakingly stupid take.
I didn’t see Biden and Trump in that quote. Facts are that both sides are just doing what they can get away with according to the crowd they’re trying to appeal to. If left to their own devices, both sides will engage in heinous behavior. The only thing stopping the Democrats from doing more Republican things is in a way, their branding as “good guys”, whatever that may mean to Democrat sided citizens. The point is there is a lack of scrutiny on our end and the whole good vs evil black and white bullshit distracts us from the fact that the people in charge of the Democrats are just as capable of evil and are just two sides of the same coin taking different approaches. There was a time when the Republicans were the good guys and the Democrats were the evil ones and that can switch just as easily as it did before. The whole Red vs Blue shit is a distraction. He never said it’s okay to vote for Trump or okay not to vote against him and it’s extremely disingenuous for you to say that that’s his fucking take.
I can tell the difference, in the same way I can tell the difference between a father that molests his children and the wife that covers for and enables him.
Curious how democrats decided to do genocide over obstructing any of the dastardly acts on your list. Is it lost on you how the democrats are controlled opposition?
If, in 20 years, your choice is between a democrat who wants 9 genocides and a republican who wants 10, which would you choose?
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won’t someone think of the contractual obligations??? 🙀🙀🙀
Let’s not pretend that Trump’s plan to forcibly remove all Palestinians from Gaza isn’t a revival of the same plan put forth by Biden behind closed doors.
But in a statement Thursday, the Egyptian government rejected efforts to move Palestinians from Gaza as a “blatant violation” of international law that could undercut ceasefire talks and threaten Middle East relations.
A Western diplomat in Cairo, also speaking anonymously because the discussions have not been made public, confirmed receiving Egypt’s message of its strong opposition through multiple channels. The diplomat said Egypt was very serious and viewed the plan as a threat to its national security.
The diplomat said Egypt rejected similar proposals from the Biden administration and European countries early in the war, which was sparked by Hamas’ Oct. 7, 2023 attack into southern Israel. The earlier proposals were broached privately, while Trump announced his plan at a White House press conference alongside Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.
The only obligation the US has, under the Leahy Law and International Law, is to cease weapons transfers to Israel for violating human rights and perpetrating crimes against humanity.
Biden is a self proclaimed Zionist, he absolutely supported this genocide, both materially, diplomatically, and ideologically.
The one who wants fewer genocides, how is that even a question?
But much better would be using those 20 years to empower progressives at the local level, so they have the experience to get elected to the state level, which gives them the experience to be competitive at the federal level. No one is saying to just support the Dems forever. You can spend 1 day every 4 years helping the Republicans lose, and spend the other 1460 fighting for better options. I recommend it, in fact.
Voting lesser evil slows the descent into fascism while we build the progressive base necessary for a progressive to win the general election. No one is saying the lesser evil is good, we know it’s evil, that’s why we call it the lesser evil. But it is the lesser evil, and when you have a choice between two evils winning, the lesser evil is preferable.
Voting for a third party with no chance of winning, or not voting at all, does not give us better options. Building a successful third party takes time and many, many wins in smaller elections. Personally, I’d rather spend that time under a neo-liberal regime than a Christofascist one. They’re both bad, but one is unambiguously worse.
Vote progressive for every local office you can. If there are no progressive options, consider running yourself or convincing a politically inclined friend to do so. If we all show up for every single election, and flood every level of government with progressives, maybe in 20 years we’ll have a better choice than 9 genocides vs 10 genocides. But every Republican win helps gerrymander and disenfranchise us further from that goal.
Surely nobody thought of this 20 years ago when George fucking Bush was in office. Or 40 years ago when Reagan was in office. This idea of pushing the liberal party left and running locally is a totally fresh and original idea and definitely isn’t a distraction from organizing the working class into a force of its own which demands concessions from the ruling class at the threat of upheaval.
It’s not a new idea, we just haven’t been implementing it. And who said anything about pushing the liberal party left? It’s not about parties, it’s about politicians and their policies. Run third party wherever it’s viable, run Democrat where it isn’t, it’s really not that important what letter is next to your name. What’s important is your platform.
definitely isn’t a distraction from organizing the working class into a force of its own
That’s exactly what I’m suggesting. What is “showing up to every election to vote for progressives” if not organizing the working class? What kind of organization do you think has a lower barrier than voting? If we can’t organize the working class to vote one day every couple years, how on Earth do you expect them to jeopardize their safety and livelihoods with more direct action?
And even then, those approaches aren’t mutually exclusive. Voting in no way prevents you from organizing. In fact, strategically voting against the fascists explicitly helps the push to organize. It’s much easier to protest when the reaction is a smug “I’m talking now”, than when the reaction is having your degree retroactively nullified or, y’know, getting deported to an El Salvadorian gulag.
I understand the dissenting opinions, but it’s mind-boggling people can’t grasp this in the modern world. There’s almost 350 million people in the US. It’s impossible to immediately get everyone on the same page and make meaningful change in a short period of time.
If you abstain from voting, you absolutely allow the greater evil to thrive and become worse. Look at the extent that Bush went to after 9/11. No one should want that.
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Do you have a plan for that “electoral reform” that doesn’t involve said ballot box?
Do you not see the inherent contradictions there?
No I completely get the problem there. It’s going to be really hard to get electoral reform if there are no longer elections. So my focus is on preserving Democratic institutions long enough that maybe we can improve them. Obviously party leaders have no interest in seeing changes that threaten the duopoly, but there are Democrats (particularly at the state level) who have been open to reforms like rank choice voting.
If suddenly Republicans stop attacking the rule of law, checks and balances, gerrymandering districts, overriding voters, and coddling white nationalists then maybe their party would be capable of enacting positive change as well.
If you have some secret third choice that can change the system without bloodshed or voting for one of the two parties I’m all ears. If you’re going to tell me to vote third party then I’d like you to show me how you think a third party candidate can win the presidency because that’s never happened and it’s never even been close.
You talked right past the inherent contradictions and did not see them.
Assuming the US election process remains unchanged for the foreseeable future how do you get electoral reforms using the electoral process that you agree needs reforms?
I suppose I’m open to suggestions?
I understand what you’re getting at but I don’t know what kind of answer you want here. Are you suggesting that violence is the only way to achieve change? Are you suggesting that third party candidates could win a national election and then eliminate the two-party system? Are you suggesting that electing more Republicans will result in a political future that offers more power to voters to choose their own government? Do you think that electing fascists will accelerate the collapse of the state and then a more progressive ideology will rise from the ashes? Are you just cool with what the Republican party looks like right now and the way that they govern?
Do I need to specify that I’m not saying you should vote for every Democrat no matter what and that you really should consider candidates as individuals?
I guess I see the Democratic party as a deeply flawed party (with abysmally out of touch leadership) that needs serious reform and I see the Republican party as a cult of christofascist fucks that need to be defeated before they completely erode individual rights and entrench their own power for generations.
So yes. I get the contradiction in saying “You should vote for one of the two parties in order to create a political landscape where it is possible to one day move beyond the two-party system”. Partisanship makes everything harder. But if you really think both parties are the same and that it doesn’t matter which one you pick then I don’t know what to tell you.
I don’t have a good answer for you, I have a:
Your thesis is fundamentally flawed, if we are ever going to get an answer you need to stop getting mad at the people working to help you find a solution.
What I (and others) are trying to tell you is that the christofascist fuck cult goes much deeper than the surface level that you are fixated on. The “deep flaws” you see in the Democratic party aren’t bugs, they’re ‘features’.
The current status quo is deeply broken, I think we can both agree on that, yes?
The threat of violence (along with capability) has historically been a very effective tool for change (for better and worse), but I do no not see it being effective in a world where drone strikes, autonomous murder copters and nuclear weapons are a thing.
I also argue that the concept of electoralism is fundamentally broken and so electing more Republicans, Democrats, 3rd parties, goldfish, etc. is not going to solve/change anything either.
Accelerationism replaces current problems with worse ones, but my understanding is that if you’re focus is on your grandchildren and thinking in the timescale of centuries then maybe. IMO it’s one hell of a big gamble with an incredibly high cost and low odds of substantial/any progress.
What are your thoughts?
I suppose I don’t see that as a productive perspective? You’re not offering any solutions or actions to take to enact the change you want to see besides doing nothing until we collectively figure out how to have a revolution.
The system is flawed. Maybe you’re right that it is fundamentally broken and cannot be reformed but disengaging from voting only supports the status quo and those that are already in power. I think it’s worth it to vote for candidates that share some of the same values as me even if they aren’t perfect while continuing to put political pressure on leaders that are not serving the public effectively. I would vote for someone one day and join a protest against them the next day, I do not see that as a contradiction. That is just being civically engaged.
Also I know I’m probably coming in hot here but I’m truly not mad or upset. I think these are the sorts of conversations on Lemmy that are really great and hard to have in other settings. I appreciate your thoughtful responses. It seems like we’re pretty aligned on what the problems are. I’m very open to solutions that don’t involve harming others but if you aren’t a voter I’d strongly encourage you to consider voting, though I agree that voting alone will not solve every problem.
Modlog for this comment says rule 2, but that rule is about reposts??!!
According to the modlog, this is the removed comment:
Democrats are far from perfect, but last time they were in power they… invested in infrastructure, forgave student debt, helped Ukraine defend itself, and tried to give everyone healthcare. Republicans have now crashed the (global) economy, increased disease spread, decimated public departments and services, fired thousands of critical workers and veterans, retaliated against people for their Free Speech, limited rights of women, immigrants, and LGBTQ+ people, made us less safe against wildfires and contagions, started to gut Medicare, turned all our allies against us, raised prices on everything, engaged in corrupt theft of our tax dollars, and now want to deport legal Americans.
Well, I think this is worth highlighting.
The rule 2 refers to the rule 2 of the instance, not the community, which is:
Be respectful, especially when disagreeing. Everyone should feel welcome here.
The part you decided to show in the modlog is also a little deceptive. Here is the missing part:
“BoTh SiDeS!” EDIT lol, the instant downvote from OP.
The rule 2 refers to the rule 2 of the instance, not the community, which is:
Ah that makes more sense.
The part you decided to show in the modlog is also a little deceptive.
I left that out not to be deceptive, but because it wasn’t germane to everything else, and it was an edit.
Not sure what you said but 100% agreed
Haha, a removed comment, I shall assume everything it said was 100% in line with my beliefs.
You do realize you don’t have to assume and can just look at the modlog, right?
What a sad way to view the world and all its viewpoints…
I don’t know why you all tolerate this pathetic c3nsorshep here. All I said in my “unalived” comment was basically that there is 1 party in the USA that illegally disappears people, crashes the global economy (for you and me!), is corrupt, etc, and the other one tried to give everybody health care. “b07H s1des” right!?
Your daily reminder that blueMAGA doesn’t consider Palestinians to be people.
In fact some of them hate you and consider you to be a parasite no matter what you do.
It’s kind of why we need Ranked Choice Voting.
Alternative voting systems have in practice been proven useless, whether in South Korea, Japan, Australia, and many other capitalist dictatorship countries that use it. It might make bribery a bit more expensive, since there are more candidates to buy off, and more political advertising necessary, but it hasn’t fixed anything.
The root problem is capital standing above political power. And that can’t be undone using it’s own platform.
How are you measuring useless?
Australia has RCV and has more than 2 active political parties.
RCV hasn’t stopped right wing governments from coming to power, nor returned lands to indigenous Australians, nor done anything to reverse concentration of wealth or media ownership.
True, it’s just a voting system. It can’t do those things unless people vote for those things to happen.
The thing RCV does do is break us out of the control of a 2-party government. So we could have a communist party with RCV, but can’t in our current system.
You can’t achieve a democracy through voting, it always results in an oligarchy. The wealthy / economically dominant classes are the only ones who have enough money / prestige to finance their campaigns and win the popularity contest. It makes any political system based on elections nothing more than political theatre.
This is basic stuff even the ancient greeks knew, and communists learned through trial and error, yet liberals in the 21st century can’t wrap their heads around it.
That’s an interesting perspective on things and gives me something to think about.
No probs. Here’s an overview of how communists view democracy.
There’s never been an imperialist nation where any communist party has come to power via the ballot box. It’s never happened even a single time.
RCV specifically is worse than say Ranked Robin voting, STAR voting, or score voting which all would make the least liked candidate winning less likely compared to RCV or FPTP.
Most countries stopped at RCV, but Ranked Robin or STAR would be a big upgrade.
Fixing the voting system is just one of the key things that needs to happen though. Education desperately needs reforms. Our media desperately needs reforms such as the Fairness Doctrine coming back and being expanded to all media and social media influencers/podcasters as well.
Ranked Robin voting?
Never heard of it but sounds nice. We all vote for Robin Hood and then steal from the rich.
No need to steal, they should pay out what they owe through taxes, which should be a considerably higher sum than it is currently.
This helps explain Ranked Robin better than I could, but it’s a great starting point for electing leaders from third parties and for helping to change the media landscape for winning elections.
most countries that are not the US have more than 2 political parties.
The CIA killed the Australian Prime Minister and covered it up when he went against US interests. They are a cucked vassal state, nothing they vote on matters whatsoever. They have to obey America.
i live somewhere with mandatory voting, and have looked into places with ranked choice. it doesnt do much.
the problem is capitalism and the rich’s interests being paid for instead of ours. not how the ballots are made or counted.
I used to be where you were a decade ago. Studying all the voting systems and trying to think of tweaks to the electoral system to fix democracy and make it more reflective of popular will. By the way, Single Transferable Vote is much better than simple Ranked Choice systems, but that’s besides the point. This is a dead end. There’s no tweaks that will fix this fundamentally broken machine made to serve the rich. You have to give up on this idealism and accept that the entire thing is irredeemable and corrupt.
Democracy cannot co-exist with capitalism. Private accumulation of capital distorts the system to such an extent that the principle of equal voices is completely lost.
you could come up with the best theoretically possible electoral system and it won’t change a thing since ultimately, the state in the West serves the capitalist class.
I hear people say this, but how do we get it?
The people in power will lose their power if we did, so we won’t.
It’s up to the states. It already implemented in Maine and Alaska, with a majority of people in those state approving of it.
I’m still pissed off it was voted down in Oregon
