I like and admire vegans.
I probably should be vegan because I am lucky enough to have the economic privilege to support that kind of lifestyle.
But, as with many other communities centered around lifestyle topics, I would never want to participate in a vegan community. Lifestyle communities always become insular and echo-chambery, so you become a pariah if you don’t properly adhere to 100% of the community consensus behaviors.
Not just vegans, but you see it happen with fitness communities, diy/home decor, a lot of hobbies, etc.
so you become a pariah if you don’t properly adhere to 100% of the community consensus behaviors.
You don’t pocket mulch?!
I’m a level 5
Just don’t interact with communities you dislike. It’s a pretty bad excuse to blame other people for your decisions.
Abstaining from animal murder and torture is admirable and something I should do OTOH some internet commenters are mean about it
I wonder why they would be mean…
Good job! This is the comment that made them turn vegan! Mission accomplished!
I was going to stop torturing animals, but some mean vegan said some words that hurt my feelings.
So now I’m going to eat two burgers!
chortle!
I think I will actually do this now just to prove you wrong
legendary!
If your belief lives or dies because of some internet comment it won’t last anyway.
Edit: as in, what sustains it is the actual moral implications of a non-vegan lifestyle. I was convinced to go vegan by internet comments like this.
See here’s what’s really really funny, people over and over again say “man if the vegan people who were trying to convince me could just not be gigantic assholes about it then maybe it would be easier to join their community”
And then you come along and are a gigantic asshole about it and prove the entire point.
Super solid representation, 5/7, perfection.
thing is, it’s a philosophy of empathy and compassion. you don’t really join a.commmunity. there are no V cards I’m afraid.
This discussion is literally about the vegan community here on Lemmy
I thought it was more about abuse.
If you need people to be nice to you to convince you, you care more about appearances than the argument. If people being rude stops you from acting on something you actually believe in you won’t last a month as a vegan.
Going vegan means changing your habits, giving up a lot of your treats with nothing in return. You will be the weird one at christmas that needs “special” catering, people have to choose restaurants based on your habits and you will be the butt of a lot of jokes simply because you care about animals not being enslaved. If you need people to be nice to you, and applaud you and make you feel all warm and fuzzy to keep that going you won’t last.
The first lesson every vegan needs to learn is: there are no rewards and no one will compliment you. You are doing this out of your own conviction and not for anyone else.
This is precisely the circlejerking mentioned in the meme. Whether true or not, the community presents itself as unwelcoming and self-aggrandizing. These are not traits that easily convince people to listen to the cause.
There’s nothing to listen to, either you believe animal ag is horrendous and unethical and act on it or you don’t. That’s it. No pretty pleases are going to convince someone they have to give up their beloved steak and cheese for nothing in return.
Well this has been great, thanks for being the point.
good talk nice representation, really convinced me to be nicer to corpsemunchers going forward.
Going vegan means changing your habits, giving up a lot of your treats with nothing in return. You will be the weird one at christmas that needs “special” catering, people have to choose restaurants based on your habits and you will be the butt of a lot of jokes simply because you care about animals not being enslaved. If you need people to be nice to you, and applaud you and make you feel all warm and fuzzy to keep that going you won’t last.
this should be on a billboard.
If belligerent internet comments actually convinced you to change your diet in such an inconvenient manner for no reward but moral superiority, you are not like the people you’re trying to convince. Abusers and cults love bomb because its more effective on a random sample of people
If one believes that the mother losing her newborn cries about it for days and that this is happening on an industrial scale that person will be very indignant about such a horrific injustice. That’s what convinced me, this is a real injustice and not being angry about it would be insincere
Convincing people to be ethical past the point of inconvenience requires insincerity, yes. The average person is a horrible human being
@Stovetop did not say nor implied that he/she is not vegan, because of the community.
I probably should be vegan … But … I would never want to participate in a vegan community.
Seems pretty clear to me.
Then you need to go back to school for reading comprehension, because being a vegan and participating in a community about veganism are not the same thing, not even remotely close.
and yet that seems to be the stated reason…
Only because you’re inferring a lot from a couple comments. You don’t know why they aren’t vegan (which could be for any number of reasons), the only thing you know, and are basing your entire assumptions on, is that they don’t want to hang out in spaces full of insufferable vegans.
Only if you have poor reading comprehension.
I mean, leaving .world is a pretty fair response. That community is full of insufferable idiots, but an admin overrode their moderating decisions, and then the admin team made up rules to retroactively justify their decision. That’s pretty egregious.
I’m no fan of Lemmy.world but I’m even less of a fan of dead cats.
Yeah, to be clear, you should not feed your cat a Vegan diet. Cats are obligate carnivores. Synthetic Taurine has made vegan catfood somewhat more viable, but cats don’t just need Taurine from prey. They need several vitamins, amino acids, and fatty acids from animal protein to survive. Beyond that, their digestive tract isn’t very efficient at digesting plant matter, so even if these foods have the nutritional value they need, they might not be absorbing it. Also, a lot of these products seem to be made from grains and other carb heavy products, and cats need a very low carb, high protein diet. If you want to completely divest from the meat industry, you simply shouldn’t own a cat.
That being said, Vegan catfood products are on the market, so whether or not they are good for cats, they have been approved by several regulating bodies. You can claim that they’re unsafe (I certainly do), but having an admin nuke a comment section for claiming otherwise is a huge overreaction. It would be like going into a vape community and banning accounts that claimed vaping is safer than smoking; it probably isn’t, but I don’t need admins deciding who gets to have discourse about that.
Finally, I’m also not a fan of dead cats, but if you’re dumb enough to take veterinary advice from an internet vegan group, you’re probably too dumb to keep a cat alive anyway.
Vegan catfood products are on the market, so whether or not they are good for cats, they have been approved by several regulating bodies
Yeah, that’s not how it works. Especially in countries with extreme regulatory capture like the US.
Unless a product has text that says in a very specifically worded way that it’s been tested and approved by a relevant regulatory body, it hasn’t.
The fact that something hasn’t been taken off the market YET does not necessarily mean that it’s been approved. Especially not when you’re dealing with politically volatile stuff that could lead to lengthy public lawsuits sapping the resources of the already chronically underfunded and understaffed agencies.
If it’s vegan food for obligate carnivores, it MIGHT technically be “safe” (as in won’t be outright lethal), but for the reasons you yourself mentioned, it’s likely to significantly decrease the animal’s enjoyment of life at best and more likely to be downright torturous.
It would be like going into a vape community and banning accounts that claimed vaping is safer than smoking
Except for the fact that those accounts would be absolutely right and have reams of scientific evidence from the world’s foremost experts in related fields to back up their claims. Unlike the people abusing cats in the name of not abusing animals.
it probably isn’t
It is. It’s not even anywhere near the next city over from the neighborhood of close.
but I don’t need admins deciding who gets to have discourse about that
Except limiting the spread of dangerous misinformation, such as common myths that are keeping smokers away from one of if not THE most effective smoking cessation tool, is a big part of what admins are FOR.
if you’re dumb enough to take veterinary advice from an internet vegan group, you’re probably too dumb to keep a cat alive anyway
Yeah…that’s not a valid argument either. A lot of vegans avoid getting a cat because they’re too overzealous in their veganism to even want carnivorous animals to eat meat.
The Venn diagram of people vegan enough to love carnivores but refuse to give them meat and people who would trust a vegan online echo chamber more than competent veterinarians is a circle within a bigger circle.
Well, various vegan catfoods have been approved for use in not only the U.S. but also the E.U., but your point about regulatory capture is fair. Unfortunately, it’s undercut by your support for vaping, a nicotine product brought to market with an insane lack of oversight. Ironically, most of what you’re complaining about with the cat food is exactly what makes vaping so dangerous. We don’t have as much research or long-term studies on the effects of vaping to say it’s as dangerous as smoking, but we know that they contain propylene glycol and vegetable glycerin, which are toxic to cells, aldehydes, which are associated with lung disease and heart disease, acrolein, which can cause COPD, asthma and lung cancer, as well as various heavy metals. I’m pretty sure that a lot more people will die of vaping than cats will die of veganism. That being said, I don’t think people who support vaping should be removed from lemmy for using a product that’s probably unsafe, and and it’s not the job of admins or moderators to stop people from taking bad health advice from strangers on the internet.
In the UK the NHS is advocating for vaping as a way to stop smoking, and it works. Also, i don’t know where you get your information about VG and PG (especially regarding their toxicity), but i am more than sure that your information is outdated/obsolete by now.
A large part of your cells walls are made out of vegetable glycerin. The LD50 for rats is about 12g/kg body weight (mice 8g/kg) when ingested (so about 1kg for a 100kg human), and the seen adverse effects when inhaling were minimal and only visible in hourlong exposures at the highest tested concentration.
Propylene Glycol has an even higher LD50 in rodents (20 GRAMS/kg b.w.) and is in use in every theatre in the world for fog and smoke effects (in HUGE volumes in contrast to vaping - i vape a lot and am somwhere between 5-10ml VG/PG 1:1 per day) for ages now, and there would have been found a correlation between stage workers and lung cancer by now. It’s widely used in the agricultural sector as a feed additive in pretty large quantities too.
you get acrolein when the e-cigarette overheats. modern devices should not even really do this anymore. The heavy metals are a hypothesis i heard in the beginning and for which i haven’t seen any source in the last 5 years. At least if you aren’t overheating your NI80 coils on purpose to a dull red glow. all my homies use SS316 for smooth automatic temperature control :-)
I’m with you regarding the aroma additives (which i assume you meant as source for aldehydes); not many of those have been tested regarding inhalation (except for aromatherapy probably), and they might prove to be detrimental. i also believe that if i had kept my pack or two a day hobby for much longer, it would have had a real chance of killing me. i am also advocating that this stuff should be 18+ - by that age the whole “peer pressure” thing that led to me starting smoking with 14 should be mostly over.
in the end, the most important part is: i choose to use e-cigarettes since it’s harm reduction in comparison to smoking (and nothing else worked for me), and i know that it would be healthier not to do it. cats don’t have much choice regarding their food, especially when combined with an religiously motivated owner.
I just wanted to add: the reason why most carnivores go for the digestive tract first when eating their prey is that they eat the predigested plant matter with the entrails, making those nutrients much more readily available to them.
It’s a shame; i’m sure there are vegans feeding their cats this way, and when those animals lose muscle mass quickly, the first thing that gets really damaged by that are their kidneys - and this does normally only get noticed shortly before the cat is going to die. And it’s an ugly death. I’ve had a young cat which had nearly dead kidneys when we got her, and it’s pure torture for them - we tried everything we could, but there’s not much to be done after they show symptoms. That one “study” that other poster is throwing around with the owner-reported feedback regarding the health of their cats has actual negative worth.
What if we raise them in a factory farm and eat them instead? Don’t worry though. We will force feed them a carnivore diet in their tiny cages
deleted by creator
What is your intent when replying like this? Did you intend to have a conversation and a sharing of views? Is it just about mocking the hypocrisy what you assume my views to be?
You replied only with questions without answering theirs, how rude.
deleted by creator
- Agreed, except when it’s being done to retroactively justify your actions.
- I think it’s a very bad idea to feed a cat a Vegan diet, but there are vegan products being sold on the market, and if you want to feed your cat one of these products, you should discuss them with a vet or other qualified professional. Regular dry food contains way more carbohydrates than cats are meant to have in their diet, which can lead to obesity and diabetes in cats. Are people who feed their cats dry food animal abusers? Should the Lemmy admins start policing the use of dry food?
- The mods of c/vegan were trying to assert their ability to moderate their own sub as they saw fit in the face of a massive overreach from the admin. I think they’re the most insufferable community I’ve seen on this instance, but they should have the right to moderate their own community.
And yes, I’m on .world, but very little of my identity is tired up in my lemmy instance, and I’m certainly not going to bat for the .world admins when they do something crazy.
And yes, I’m on .world, but very little of my identity is tired up in my lemmy instance, and I’m certainly not going to bat for the .world admins when they do something crazy.
Just please make an alt account if you intend on cresting any communities.
I see a lot more vegan hate than vegans.
No one hates vegans. Almost everyone hates vegan extremists.
No one hates vegans, but everyone loves to post vegan hate or idiotic “bacon” posts.
Of all the delicious meats to be obsessed about, redditbros went and picked one of the least appealing ones and decided to make it their entire personality 💀
For real. I’ve been vegetarian for a few years now and of all the things I kind of miss, not once has bacon been even a slight craving. A good kebab on the other hand…
The vast majority of people love bacon and bacon memes and jokes are part of the mainstream culture. Do you accommodate non-vegans? Why do you expect them to accommodate you?
Do you accommodate non-vegans?
That’s because they don’t consider non-veganism a morally acceptable option.
As a thought experiment, pick any action that you would personally find morally repugnant and ask yourself if you should accommodate people who do that action.
Precisely. They make the same mistake that all extremists make. They believe that they are morally superior which justifies anything they say or do to anyone they see as inferior. The problem is that the rest of the world does not agree with them so they are reviled for their antisocial behaviour then constantly whine about how the people they harangue treat them badly.
Just because the rest of the world doesn’t agree with them doesn’t mean they’re wrong, though. Societal norms progress with splinter groups that are willing to put their convictions above group conformity. The process is always unpleasant.
Yup, that’s exactly the mistake that extremists make. There is a great quote from a judgement out of a court in the UK. Let me find it…
“But the plain fact is that each of you has some time ago crossed the line from concerned campaigner to fanatic. You have appointed yourselves as the sole arbiters of what should be done about climate change, bound neither by the principles of democracy nor the rule of law.
“And your fanaticism makes you entirely heedless of the rights of your fellow citizens. You have taken it upon yourselves to decide that your fellow citizens must suffer disruption and harm, and how much disruption and harm they must suffer, simply so that you may parade your views.”
This really sums it up. Sometimes fanatics are right. Often, they are wrong. Their ability to self-absolve their abhorent antisocial behavior is why so many people so violently hate them and it’s the reason that many vegans feel like they are being painted with the same brush. They’ve appointed themselves holy crusaders who will bully, harass, and intimidate anyone who doesn’t agree with them.
I wish that was true (and I’m not even vegan) but there are many outspoken anti-vegans. But then again they’re the types who will always find an out group to denigrate (in before someone oh-so-cleverly points out I’m doing the same to them).
I think that you will find that these anti-vegans are reacting to the behaviour of the extremist.
I don’t disagree, but then they’ll apply their hatred to the whole (or at least majority) of the group
That, unfortunately, is how it goes. If the only vegans that most people deal with are the obnoxious assholes then they assume that every vegan is an obnoxious asshole.
The community of non-vegans is a lot bigger than that of the vegans. So vegans do something that gets a reaction, you are much more likely to hear that reaction than the original thing.
They’re easy to hate - They’re weird, eat funny foods, care about things nobody else does (who cares about chickens) and my god is there a subset of them that are the most truly obnoxious human beings (a statement that is, conveniently, true of every single group of humans). They’re basically furries for the non-internet crowd. Nobody ever interacts with them to know it, so they get defined by the strawmen people create of them.
Edit: It’s possible my explanation of why vegans are disliked has touched a nerve. To clarify; I don’t think this, hell I eat vegan meals most of the time, but these are the qualities given to the Strawman Vegan that everyone onlines seems to love to hate. (I also quite like furries.)
The cause has been tainted by the extremists, to the point where even some vegans are being pushed away from the movement.
Of course, the ones that are on a niche media platform, in a community dedicated to veganism, are likely to be the nutter ones.
Yikes. You know, vegans are targeted by the extremely wealthy & powerful meat & dairy industries who spend untold fortunes making the vegan lifestyle look as unappealing and “crazy” as possible?
I mean, I’m sure you’re galaxy brain is impervious to propaganda and everything, I’m just saying, you’re painting with an awfully broad brush.
That’s getting a bit tinfoil hat, don’t you think?
Or its tracing the money and influence of different lobbies in America. Just look at the original gerrymandered food pyramid made to accommodate the dairy industry. Or lawsuits against plant based alternatives.
I think the cause has been tainted by the rampant propagandizing and demonization across all forms of media that the movement has been subjected to. You’re doing it now, even - what the hell even is an “extremist vegan”?
Extreme vegans are the people who stand outside restaurants, grocery stores, butcher shops, etc. and yell at people just trying to go about their lives calling them carnists, corpose munchers, blood mouths, animal torturers, and talk about murdering animals (murder is the killing of one human by another) or eating cadavers (a cadaver is a dead human body.) They don’t simply go about their lives living their best vegan life but harass and harangue people. They do the same thing online.
You should read the post the [email protected] mods made in response to the admin actions. Phrases like “carnist Lemmy admin”, as if that’s the reason they didn’t like the idea of starving a cat.
There was also a comment saying Vegan should be a protected belief, like other religions.
It’s not a conspiracy by the meat and dairy industry.
A carnist lemmy world instance admin has stepped in and meatsplained to the mods
It’s difficult to take people like this seriously.
I had a pet chicken in elementary school. She was a sweetheart.
Don’t let the door hit you on the way out.
I had a look at the community yesterday, every post bar one was about vegan cat food for the last week. They’re not taking this well at all.
I just had a look myself after your comment and cannot confirm your claim at all. There are, understandably, quite a few posts about this debacle and the future of their sub but more than half is stuff related to veganism not related to cats.
casual drive-by meme;
Lemmy dot world definitely doesn’t circlejerk, no siree.
I mean, they’re the biggest instance, of course there is going to be circle jerking, but it also has more dissenting voices to push back against people who are just plain wrong.
Did they move to .ml or hexbear?
Both and more
“[…] well moderated and run.”
LOL!
Both already had a vegan community and hexbear is vegan by default (carnists need to tag their post if it contains meat, dairy etc.)
Lots of othering happening by commentators promoting to be vegan, is othering a core principle of veganism?
I may be wrong, but I think that veganism is about not exploiting/eating sentient creatures
So the aggressive othering is just something done for fun?
You might feel othered because you are different, but I for one wish all animals feel nothing but acceptance and peace (including you)
Oh bless your heart my sweet summer child.
Are you othering me?
ITT: circlejerking.
I think we’ve had enough of the vegan cat food argument on Lemmy.world at this point.
I still don’t know what tankies are and Im too afraid to ask.
Tankies are a pejorative term for left-wing, often communist, supporters of authoritarian regimes they see as anti-imperialist or socialis, it now broadly includes defenders of governments like China or North Korea. Critics argue tankies overlook human rights abuses, prioritizing geopolitical stability over true socialist values.
Hexbear’s largest and most site-threatening drama was over its vegan comm (and I think the mods of Reddit’s vegancirclejerk?). It ended with the site requiring content warnings on all pictures of meat.
But you know what? They were right. Vegans are basically right about everything, and the reason me and my fellow omnis get our jimmies so rustled by them is because we fucking know they’re right.
The part that bothers me is that the most toxic members of the community tend to be boosted. Although I can agree that vegans are right about most things, I would argue that there’s lots of things vegans are wrong about, like arguing that cultivated meat is inviable/immoral/etc. Maybe what bothers you most is that you view your own lifestyle as immoral, but not everyone agrees with you, and you shouldn’t presume to speak for everyone.
Speaking from experience, I really resented all the “toxic vegans” I experienced while I was becoming vegan, but looking back I’m quite thankful for them. The reason they seemed so toxic was because they kept highlighting my own moral inconsistencies. This raised cognitive dissonance which felt like a personal attack. It’s an unpleasant experience.
Of course there were also a lot of “good vegans” I’m thankful of as well who would patiently answer any of my questions, and this is the approach I try and take myself (although sometimes I don’t succeed, I’m sure).
Speak for yourself
I’m actually rather thankful for this entire drama, or rather my cats are.
I was ‘this’ close to forgetting some ham for their once in a while treat. Thanks, /c/vegan!You guys 🥹
Look the beans were great, but our own bender-hookers-and-blow meme. You shouldn’t have ☺️❤️❤️❤️
Isn’t it a rule if they stop acting superior they lose their vegan card and superpowers?
As a vegan tankie, I’m more than happy to welcome anyone who is passionate about justice and equality. If you think for yourself rather than just following and upholding arbitrary social norms, you’re going to get pushback from the people who believe in those norms. Whether the norms in question are the needless industrialized mass slaughter of animals, or the needless industrialized mass slaughter of the victims of US imperialism. And it’s much easier to have meaningful, higher level discussions among people who share certain common values, so you’re not having to constantly refute the same shitty low effort talking points over and over.
Please, keep pushing your vegan users our way.
