The new standards are part of a broad push to get more Americans into electric vehicles, and reduce the environmental cost of driving.

  • bamboo@lemm.ee
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    6 months ago

    Supposedly they want us all in EVs, but American manufacturers aren’t producing shit except for Tesla which are safety hazards, and they effectively banned Chinese competition that could have actually accomplished it. US car manufacturers will likely ignore these new standards by pushing more “light trucks” that are exempt.

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        Prices for cars in general was at an all time high. Don’t piss on my shoe and tell me it’s raining. They’re still way overpriced.

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          You said the prices were too high, here is proof that the prices are coming down, almost 20% in a year.

          You said American manufacturers aren’t making cheaper EVs, this article talks about cheaper American EVs.

          You cried that American EV manufacturers are going to try to trick their way around regulations, while apterra is making 400 to 1,000 mile range EVS with solar charging 40 mi a day, a very clear example of auto innovation.

          Don’t throw a tantrum because your complaints were so flimsy.

          • SupraMario@lemmy.world
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            You said the prices were too high, here is proof that the prices are coming down, almost 20% in a year.

            20% down after increasing overall for the last decade is not proof. You sound like some marketing manager telling me how the price of cereal has dropped by 20% afte you rose the price for the last 5 years by 300%…

            You said American manufacturers aren’t making cheaper EVs, this article talks about cheaper American EVs.

            No where did I say that …

            You cried that American EV manufacturers are going to try to trick their way around regulations, while apterra is making 400 to 1,000 mile range EVS with solar charging 40 mi a day, a very clear example of auto innovation.

            Yeah didn’t say that either…and aptera is a tiny company that doesn’t even have a final release on the car from their website… it’s probably going to be vaporware just like most of these EVs that sport massive mileage claims.

            Don’t throw a tantrum because your complaints were so flimsy.

            Lol yeah I’m the one throwing the tantrum…you EV militants are hilarious.

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              6 months ago

              It’s very clear you find hard evidence hilarious.

              'Vaporware".

              Don’t use words you don’t know the meaning of because you’re embarrassed of being proved wrong.

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                  That’s what the entire article i provided is about. Don’t blame other people because you never learned how to read.

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      6 months ago

      GM has the Bolt, and now the Silverado, Ford has the MachE and the Lightning, Dodge is catching up, mostly with Jeep of all brands.

      The Jeep wrangler PHEV is the top selling hybrid. The bolt and MachE are pretty great and can be found on the used market with decent miles for an affordable amount. The Lightning is a fantastic truck, better in almost every way that matters than the cyber truck. The Silverado EV is just launching but seems very capable.

      Ford is the number 2 EV seller behind Tesla. If you think American manufacturer aren’t producing shit, you’re just not looking.

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        The only EV I can find from an American brand that is in any way appealing is the Bolt. Everything else is a giant truck or SUV, and to be honest I don’t feel safe driving such a huge piece of metal, and I don’t have the money to justify buying one. No American options are affordable or reasonably sized. The US is doing EVs in possibly the most unsustainable way possible.

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          The MachE is the same size as the bolt and it’s rather affordable on the used market. It doesn’t feel like an SUV to drive and barely looks like one. If you don’t like the look, then you don’t like the look, but that doesn’t mean that American manufacturers “aren’t producing shit” it’s that they aren’t producing anything that fits your aesthetic. They will, because they will have to if they want to keep selling cars in California. Just going to take time to get more styles out there.

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            The MachE is nearly a third larger than the bolt by weight, an already large car, as well as being larger than the bolt in every physical dimension, even if not by much (except for length, where there’s a nearly 2 foot difference). I just want a small compact car with enough range to get me to work and back and run a few errands. In 2000 most cars were reasonable sizes even in the US, but today you can find anything reasonably sized new. I don’t want an SUV or a “crossover”. In other coutures like China these vehicles are being built, but US politicians would rather protect the profits of car companies producing these massive, inefficient, unsustainable monster trucks for people to take to the office and back.

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          Look at the Hyundais, ~300 mile range, 15 min battery charge, and they have a sedan and a cuv wagon thing. They are also some of the cheapest leases you can get, and dealers are overflowing with them. It’s basically the EV wishlist, but for some reason I don’t see many on the road.

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            Could you be more specific? I couldn’t find a single EV under $30k the cheapest one I could find on their website was $37.5k on their website. That’s not affordable, and 10k above where the bolt starts.

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              They are expensive to buy outright, but that’s arguably a bad idea anyway due to the depreciation. They are leasing Ioniq 5 and 6 for less than $250/month and $200/month: https://www.hyundaiusa.com/us/en/offers

              It’s cheaper than most of the gas cars in terms of cost to own over the period. If you want to buy. The Kona electric is $32,xxx

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                I’m not the kind of person that wants a new car always. I’d rather have a car that will last me 20 years. With that in mind, leasing is almost always much more expensive.

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                  I’m not the kind of person who wants a new car always either. I have a 15 year old Acura with 200k on it. At $300/month, I no longer have gas or maintenance expenses, and I don’t have to pump gas any more. Figuring in the cost savings, I figure I’m driving a $50k car around for around $100 month. Idk what will happen in 2027 when I give this thing back to them, but it definitely would have cost me more than $3600 in repairs over three years with a 200k mile Acura.

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      For American manufacturers, Chevy has the Bolt (next year), the Blazer, and the Equinox. Ford has the Mustang Mach E. Lucid has the Air and the Gravity.

      The Apterra will also be available soon and that thing gets like 600 mile range. It’s only a two seater though.

      • Flying Squid@lemmy.world
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        Are they though?

        The employee training the company offers is “woefully inadequate,” Reveal reported in its investigation. Turley told me she was never taught how to do her job and only shown videos that included a history of the plant and information about Tesla, but nothing about the work she would be doing. “You pretty much have to learn from the people that’s in there,” she said. Cleon Waters also said in his filing that he was never given any training for his job assembling parts of car motors. California safety regulators cited Tesla eight times for deficient training between 2013 and 2018.

        – Possibly the least offensive thing in this article: https://www.thenation.com/article/society/tesla-racism-sexual-harassment/

        Does that sound like a vehicle that is “perfectly safe” to you? A vehicle built by people who have to learn on the job?

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          Jesus dude, nobody is talking about the factory and what you linked has zero effect on the vehicle safety. This is some desperate whatsboutism lolol.

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            The factory where they build the cars. Yes. Where they build them without being trained. And that has zero effect on safety? How can you claim that?

            And yes, the rest of the article is not relevant, which is why I quoted the relevant part.

            Also, I’m not sure you understand what ‘whataboutism’ is if you think it’s “showing evidence for your claim.”

      • billwashere@lemmy.world
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        I’d love a truck like that little B-series Mazda had when I was in high school in the 80s. Or the little Toyotas. I just need something with a bed that gets decent mileage. Not something with 6 tires, needs a step ladder to get into, and enough room for 8 people. My penis is big enough already. 😂

        • Asidonhopo@lemmy.world
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          I also had a B-series in high school that I posted about in another thread, with a cap on the back it was great for camping and hauling things around. So many good memories. A setup like that is also perfect for many contractors.

  • mlg@lemmy.world
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    Stupid EPA laws sacrificed all the cool lightweight sports cars and utility trucks for giant hunks of useless metal which people use exclusively to drive on the highway.

    Big 3 already deleted all their compact car production teams, they make all their bank from SUVs and mega sized trucks.

    This will change basically nothing.

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    The fuel savings translate into about $600 less in gas costs over the life of a new vehicle, NHTSA projects.

    I don’t understand this. Let’s be extra safe and say I currently drive a car that gets 30 mpg 15k miles per year and the average fuel price was $3.60. If I switched to a vehicle that got 50 mpg, my savings per year alone would be $720.

    15,000 mi / 30 mi/g x $3.60/gal = $1,800

    15,000 mi / 50 mi/g x $3.60/gal = $1,080

    $1,800/yr - $1,080/yr = $720/yr

    Still being extra safe, let’s assume the car only makes it 100k miles, that’s a savings of ~$4,800 for the life of the vehicle.

    100,000 mi / 15,000 mi/yr = 6.67 yr

    6.67 yr x $720/yr = $4,802.40

    $4,800 > $600

    Again, this is being safe with a car that is fuel efficient, a person that travels a relatively short amount, and with low fuel prices. What am I misunderstanding??

    • SeaJ@lemm.ee
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      Maybe that is compared to the current fuel efficiency standard? The current standard for cars is 46 mpg.

    • Vej@lemm.ee
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      6 months ago

      the Geo was both awesome and shitty. I wish 2 seat cars became more of a thing. I hardly ever use the back seat, and it’s not like anyone can afford to have kids anyway.

  • SatansMaggotyCumFart@lemmy.world
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    Why don’t politicians ever set these targets in their own terms?

    This is six years away from when he’ll get back in, effectively punting the problem to the next president.

    • Dexx1s@lemmy.world
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      What targets exactly? Should every policy be limited to just their term? That completely removes the possibility of any target that takes a long time to reach. It would be a waste of time and resources to do smaller increments and then revisit them.

      Almost every policy put into place will have effects that future presidents have to deal with. Do you actually care about this in principle or do you just not like this policy?

      • SatansMaggotyCumFart@lemmy.world
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        How do you stay accountable when you don’t set limits in your own term?

        I don’t mind long-term goals, we need them, but there should be milestones and frankly I’m surprised it’s apparently an unpopular opinion.

        • Dexx1s@lemmy.world
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          How do you stay accountable when you don’t set limits in your own term?

          You don’t. Even if they’re in office, there’s nothing you can do. What do you think they’d do to Biden? Jail him? Fine him? You vote in people who align with what you want put in place, then have the separate parts of government check each other.

          I don’t mind long-term goals, we need them, but there should be milestones

          I addressed that in my previous comment. Nobody’s wasting time and resources. Such a limitation would cripple every president and make them damn near useless. They’d spend most of their time in office recalculating milestones, which would be incredibly small, at best, and impossible at worst.

          frankly I’m surprised it’s apparently an unpopular opinion.

          Because it kinda indicates that you haven’t really thought about this or you’re just not aware of how things happen in life. You’re coming off as management that’s never worked on the floor and have no idea about what’s actually feasible. It’s a good way to have everybody despise you.

          Using this as an example, let’s say it was done at the start of Biden’s 1st year, what percentage should he set per what time period, and do you really expect car manufacturers to recreate their vehicles each period?

          Manufacturers need time to meet targets. And the final percentage would be incredibly small, because it would be only four years. Whenever you see a product hit the market, development has starts years prior.

  • SeaJ@lemm.ee
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    Not sure why this is news. The current economy standard is 46 mpg.

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    I like electric vehicles, but when will the charging infrastructure get better? People without garages, ones that live in apartments and cities don’t have a convenient way to charge an electric vehicle. Most people living without a convenient way to charge their vehicle can’t afford an electric vehicle either. Hybrids are a lot easier to have now until the infrastructure gets better and they meet the 50mpg.

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      I see more and more stores and parking lots with EV parking/charging. Once it becomes a value-add for the average car user many apartments and shared parking spaces will start to include EV charging.

      I don’t understand the comment arguing about upgrading power infrastructure. EVs don’t use more electricity to charge than say a fully electric water heater or any major appliances/tools that a maker has at their homes. Maybe in some more rural areas, but then again, those are the places that 3-phase 240v already exists to support farming/processing tools.

      • Hugin@lemmy.world
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        So I have an EV and solar. This gives me a very clear picture of my power usage. The EV adds a lot to my base power usage. And this is with a class 1 charger. A commercial class 2 charger is 4 times the power usage.

        Orange is my power usage. Here is a day whew I came home at noon charged and then went out in the evening charging when I returned home. You can see how much it adds to the base draw. The spikes are my ac.

          • Hugin@lemmy.world
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            Not really. Level 1 chargers are basically trickle chargers that run off a 120v outlet. Level 2 are 4 times the power running off 240v. Then you have the big fast chargers like the tesla super charger or chadmo.

            • Maggoty@lemmy.world
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              Some poking around tells me that those are the maximums and good chargers can slow down. Furthermore cars can also just not take as much, like a low power appliance. So no you’re not forced to run it at full power and most days you’ll likely trickle charge overnight when electricity is the cheapest.

            • SeaJ@lemm.ee
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              6 months ago

              You can change the amperage. That is actually one thing that makes people think they need a level 2 charger. Many charging cables that the dealership gives you default to 6A instead of 12A so people get like 16 miles charge overnight instead of over 30.

                • SeaJ@lemm.ee
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                  No. That is for level 1 chargers. Hyundai’s for instance default to 6A. People would be extremely pissed if their level 2 charger was defaulted to 6A since level 2 starts at 15A minimum.

        • acchariya@lemmy.world
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          You probably already know this but a level 2 charger is actually more efficient than a level 1 charger. It’s counter intuitive, but the reason is that the car being powered on to accept a charge runs at around 400w, so immediately 1/5 of your draw on the level 1 charger goes to just keeping the car on. It’s better to charge faster and let the car sleep longer if you can.

          • Hugin@lemmy.world
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            Yeah i’ve considered putting in a level 2 charger but my level 1 does the job so i haven’t bothered.

      • Paranize@sh.itjust.works
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        If you add thousands of electrical car chargers to the grid without upgrading the carrying capacity of the transmission lines and the power generating capacity of the power plants you’ll have more demand than what the utilities can supply.

        • azimir@lemmy.ml
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          You’re right. The EV companies know it, the power companies are acutely aware, governments at all levels are wrestling with it, and people in older homes with old wiring find out. Many of these groups (not the old wiring homeowners) are actually pretty excited about it. It means infrastructure upgrades, funding for cities, new power company jobs, and reinvestment in old worn out wir s everywhere.

          Of course a shift in our oil dependent car shit hole system will require a similar scale shift in the energy infrastructure and that provides lots of opportunities.

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      I just went on a (2) 650 mile trip in my EV. It was fine. Took about 40 minutes longer than a gas vehicle. My car is an 800V vehicle with a great charging curve. Peaks at 240 KW and keep that high power for a lot of the curve.

      You have to plan the trip out more because you don’t have a charger on every corner. Plugshare and ABRP help a lot. I had one issue with one charger. All others were plug and play. I wish we could move away from needing an app to charge.

    • ikidd@lemmy.world
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      It isn’t even the charging infrastucture, it’s the distribution infra. There are a lot of upgrades from the main HV transmission lines to the last mile that need to be taken up by an order of magnitude if everyone starts to drive EVs.

      I mean, it’s not impossible, but we’d better start now. Hell, AC use alone has brought places like Texas to its knees, now add EVs to that demand.

      • AA5B@lemmy.world
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        But it’s really not. Sure, we need serious upgrades to support the end result, but that’s not a place we suddenly get to. The same years/decades it takes to get there are what we have to grow infrastructure to match.

        Distribution infrastructure handles current power needs and has some buffer built in to handle expected growth, so no big deal to install more chargers. Distribution infrastructure already reacts to growth - as it approaches capacity, utilities have incentive to build more. In that sense, this is just like all other power uses, and no big deal.

        The real difference is the speed. Most people are expecting a faster transition to EVs and electrification than distribution growth has historically supported. While this does need to be addressed, there’s no reason for it to block buildout of chargers. It’s fine in the short term and in the long term, the biggest driver of increased transmission will be that demand.

      • SeaJ@lemm.ee
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        The move to EVs will not happen overnight. Expect it to take a few decades.

        Texas’ (and California’s) issues are due to massive deregulation. Having extra capacity than is necessary esta into profits. So companies try to only have as much infrastructure as absolutely necessary. Additional AC use from “100 year” heatwaves (that are now happening every few years) were not really something they planned for and since they do not have the extra capacity, there are issues. They basically just have to properly model it…or have a more regulated market that makes sure there is additional capacity.

      • Ballistic_86@lemmy.world
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        Texas has those problems because they refuse to be a part of the national grid. EV charging/demand has little effect on a national sized grid. A fully electric water heater draws more power for long periods of time than any EV I am aware of. And those are everywhere in the US.

        3-phase 240v service is already available in most modern homes and def available to most apartment complexes that have to supply power for hundreds of apartments.

        • Hugin@lemmy.world
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          240v is available in most homes but three phase is very rare for residential areas unless they are right next to an industrial zone.

          Also a standard 4K heater runs about 3 hours a day and is usually the biggest power draw in a house depending on ac. That is about twice the draw of a class 1 home charger but the charger is probably being used for at least 6 hours for a daily driver. So it’s realistic to almost double a houses daily use with an EV.

          EVs are great but we do need to upgrade the infrastructure to handle them. It’s still a lot less infrastructure then we use to distribute gasoline.

          • UltraMagnus0001@lemmy.world
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            Not against EVs, because I would love to have a Hyundai N. and can’t wait for the EV revolution.

            Now lets say the water heater defense is logical. Lets say we double the water heater load on the grid then.

            • SeaJ@lemm.ee
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              Over the span of a few decades? Considering our capacity and throughout is increasing, I think that would be just fine.

        • ikidd@lemmy.world
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          There is no residential 3-phase anywhere that I’ve ever seen in North America. Maybe some place in Europe has it but not to my knowledge. I have seen people put it into something like an acreage or farm at great expense, but the idea that a house will have 3-phase by default is silly.

          Maybe an apartment complex would have a 480 or 600V 3-phase high-leg supply, and I guess they could run that to the parking areas.

          • Malfeasant@lemmy.world
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            My uncle had 3-phase to his house for a heavy duty workshop, so it is possible, but I believe he had to pay a lot up front for it, significantly more than a single phase 240V hookup to a new house would have been.

            • Crashumbc@lemmy.world
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              Correct, like anything else if you have money you can have something custom done.

              But no standard built house in the US has 3 phase power.

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      Landlords have even better govt incentives to install chargers than homeowners do. But why should they? It’s all down to motivation. Chargers still cost money and do not make a profit in themselves.

      So how do we change that? The best way is for EVs to become ever more common. Landlords will install chargers when there’s enough demand, when it’s a competitive factor that makes a difference in whether they get tenants and how much they can charge. Currently there are only a few EVs out there so it doesn’t matter: landlords can just ignore them.

      I wonder more about HOAs. I know they’re notoriously conservative/reactionary, but they are run by homeowners. They are closer to the people who want chargers. Why aren’t more of them installing chargers?

    • SeaJ@lemm.ee
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      People without garages are fine if they are in a house. You just need an outlet within reach of your parking spot. Apartment dwellers do need a solution. Orange Charger sells level 1 and 2 chargers targeted toward apartment complexes. The systems cost $600 (level 1) or $750 (level 2) and they deal with the payments. The power company in my city has level 2 chargers throughout the city that are near apartment complexes.

      As far as affordability, a used 3 year old Bolt can be bought for $16k. My state has added on another discount which brings the cost down another few thousand. Considering you will save about $1000 per year in gas costs, that’s a pretty good deal.

  • Sam_Bass@lemmy.world
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    6 months ago

    Does that stipulation include hybrids or just ice? Seems like it would be more easily attained in hybrids