• tortillaPeanuts@lemmy.world
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    7 months ago

    Israel’s Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich, meanwhile, called for immediate punishment for the Palestinian Authority and expanded settlement construction in the Occupied West Bank as a response.

    This is unhinged, wanting to punish the PA for other countries recognizing Palestine.

    • diffusive@lemmy.world
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      7 months ago

      Wait! Vatican recognized Palestine?!?

      Either way if what Spain said is true and Europe becomes green as well, it would be pretty much US, Australia and Israel to not recognize Palestine

      • Tryptaminev@lemm.ee
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        7 months ago

        Obligatory note for all the “Christians should support Israel” crowd. The Israeli minister of Security said, that Christians should be spit on. When Christians want to pray for Easter in the Church of the holy sepulcher, Israeli security forces are also harassing and attacking them. Israel is not only an ethnostate, it is also founded on religious and race supremacy, where white european/american Jews are on the top of the hierarchy and anyone else will face discrimination.

      • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
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        7 months ago

        the worlds only super power

        Is the US even really worth that term anymore? Seems like we’ve lost quite a bit of gas since the 90s.

        • barsoap@lemm.ee
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          7 months ago

          Militarily speaking the US is still a force to be reckoned with, they can bitch-slap any smaller non-nuclear country anywhere in the world on a moment’s notice.

          Soft power wise, though, the US is in freefall. And without that soft power the hard power can’t be readily employed because blowback. I’d say in the future the US is going to do a lot more riding on the EU’s soft power than they’re currently comfortable admitting. That is, they’re not going to invade random countries to bolster election results at home, they’re going to knock on Brussel’s door and ask “hey anything need peacekeeping right now that would be popular with the world?”, then portray it as their own initiative.

          • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
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            7 months ago

            Militarily speaking the US is still a force to be reckoned with

            Sure. But so are France, Russia, India, and Pakistan. A lot of the US influence comes from its extensive base network. And yet… America can’t keep the Suez open in the face of some Yemeni rebels with access to a Radio Shack. They’ve bowed out in Afghanistan and Iraq. They’re roughly holding the line in Ukraine by sheer weight of expenditure. Logistically, all very impressive. But its playing ten different chess games at once. Only impressive if you’re not losing them.

            I’d say in the future the US is going to do a lot more riding on the EU’s soft power than they’re currently comfortable admitting.

            I’m not even sure what the EU looks like in another thirty years. The UK is in steep decline, France is in full sell-out mode, Germany and Italy are making kissy-faces at their fascist wings. The Eastern European states never recovered from the break up of the USSR. Scandinavia is a gas station.

            Europe’s chips seem to be stacking up in the Middle East, under a handful of petty dictatorships and theocracies. But the real future power players are looking more and more like the member states of the South Pacific - India, China, Pakistan, Indonesia. Enormous populations, high tech industries, rapidly expanding navies, some of the last pristine wilderness anywhere on earth… These look like the countries which will be leading the world into back end of the 21st century.

            • Maggoty@lemmy.world
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              7 months ago

              We could stop the Yemenis. But it would take far more manpower and material than anyone in the US is willing to commit right now. We could go to the fortress village concept; and just generally go full scale COIN. It would stop the attacks. It would also cost a trillion dollars over a couple years and probably turn into a transitional government and peacekeeping mission.

              • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
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                7 months ago

                We could stop the Yemenis

                The same way we stopped the Iraqis, the Afghanis, and the Vietnamese, sure.

                We could go to the fortress village concept; and just generally go full scale COIN.

                Trying to teach another generation of 19 year olds broken Arabic before throwing them into a literal mine field?

                We could try it. But I can’t imagine it would boost enlistment rates

                • Maggoty@lemmy.world
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                  7 months ago

                  Enlistment? Shit at the rate we’re getting into fights we’re going to need conscription anyways. Let’s just get it over with. /s

                  The only reason we have shortages is because they cannibalized an entire generation. Turns out when you keep fighting you go right through the pool of eligible volunteers.

                  And hey I didn’t say we’d leave a stable state behind. Just that we’d stop the attacks.

        • undergroundoverground@lemmy.world
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          7 months ago

          Definitely true, its just the arms companies milking your country dry want more money. So, they’ll convince you all that you’re no longer a super power.

      • Squizzy@lemmy.world
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        7 months ago

        Lol spineless whores, just throw a dollar on the ground and whichever shit heel running that superpower will be on their knees chasing it.

        Fuck the genocide backing yanks.

  • BananaTrifleViolin@lemmy.world
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    7 months ago

    Russia threatened “severe consequences” for sanctions and supporting Ukraine.

    Israel is not doing itself any favours threatening other countries.

    • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
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      7 months ago

      I’m a bit surprised Russia is even on the “Supports Palestine” list, given that they’ve been increasingly hostile towards Arab people and cozy towards Israel.

  • FuglyDuck@lemmy.world
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    7 months ago

    Maybe we should sanction them.

    Yeah. Probably.

    “Sorry best we can do is more bombs, officially define antisemitism as calling these guys assholes, and, uh, oh yeah, giving their military benefits packages!”

    • vortic@lemmy.world
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      7 months ago

      Don’t forget threatening to sanction the ICC over the Netanyahu arrest warrant.

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          7 months ago

          All that work putting together a “humanitarian help” system which was only ever meant as propaganda and never meant to actual put a dent in Israel’s Final Solution of death by Starvation, and Biden throws all that aways like this.

          Bet even his Campaign and Press people are pissed of at that one, though probably not for “normal person empathising with the suffering of others” reasons.

    • thetreesaysbark@sh.itjust.works
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      7 months ago

      Not sure how the Jewish would think about this but I’m starting to think it’s antisemitic to link the Jewish and Israel (apart from Israel defining itself as a Jewish state). Funny how that might go full circle.

      • Viking_Hippie@lemmy.world
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        7 months ago

        I’m starting to think it’s antisemitic to link the Jewish and Israel

        It definitely is. There’s few things more antisemitic than assuming that all Jews approve of the fascist government of an apartheid ethnostate committing genocide with impunity.

        It’s right up there with the Alex Jones “globalist” conspiracy theories.

      • Flying Squid@lemmy.worldM
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        7 months ago

        I am Jewish and yes, it is antisemitic to consider all Jews as Israelis. I do not support Israel, I have no affiliation with Israel, I have no interest in going to Israel apart from the archaeology. I’m from Indiana and I have a hell of a lot more in common with a Christian from Fort Wayne than an Israeli from Haifa.

        Also, I know this is totally anecdotal, but every Israeli I have met in my life has been an asshole, which doesn’t exactly endear me to their country.

        Netanyahu is the one who benefits most from people thinking all Jews are Israeli. I sure as hell haven’t benefited from it considering how many times I’ve had to justify myself just for who my ancestors were.

        • thetreesaysbark@sh.itjust.works
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          7 months ago

          Thanks for your input!

          It’s crazy how the media portrays the ‘critisizing Israel is critizing the jewish’ position. Even politicians, at least in the west, lean in to it, but this could be due to the geopolitical position of Israel as an ally I suppose.

      • Tryptaminev@lemm.ee
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        7 months ago

        It is deliberate. Zionists love antisemitism. They love it when Jews are attacked outside Israel so they can claim to be the only safe place for them in the world. They love to use antisemitism to attack Jews, who do not want to be associated with Israel or are even critical of Israels practices or worst “questioning their “right to existence””.

      • FuglyDuck@lemmy.world
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        7 months ago

        I dunno. It definitely will incentivize “otherising” of the Jewish diaspora. Which may be a tertiary objective of it. And it will definitely lead to increased conflict.

        Which is a shame because most the Jews I know well enough to talk to about it, are extremely anti-genocide, and they’re vocal about it because… they know “I’m Jewish, [awkward stare]” is a great way to not get dinged for politics at work. (At least when the political topic is Gaza.)

        • Flying Squid@lemmy.worldM
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          7 months ago

          You are absolutely right on that. It keeps many anti-genocide Jews silent. It kept me silent for a very long time. I didn’t even like talking about being Jewish. What changed my mind was a British documentary by a British comedian named David Baddiel called Jews Don’t Count (based on his book of the same name), which is specifically about the “othering” of Jews, especially how many white people don’t see Jews as white, but most non-white people don’t see Jews as non-white. It’s made me more vocal about things. I had already seen the documentary a few years before, but what has truly cemented it for me was the “you have said the actual truth” tweet by Elon Musk in response to someone who said Jews were oppressing white people.

          It was streaming somewhere where non-Brits could see it (I think Dailymotion), but it doesn’t appear to be there anymore.

          • beardown@lemm.ee
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            7 months ago

            especially how many white people don’t see Jews as white, but most non-white people don’t see Jews as non-white.

            There are people who are Jewish and non-white though - Ethiopian jews for example.

            Which seems to negate the (Zionist-created) argument that there is such a thing as a Jewish ethnicity in the first place, as opposed to Judaism simply being a multi-ethnic faith like Christianity or Islam.

            Clearly though plenty of people who are Jewish are also white. And clearly there is a history of denying them this Whiteness once their faith is “discovered” by those they know. Same as Irish or, to a lesser extent, Italians and Slavs. Which is wrong - as is the concept of race/ethnicity/“Whiteness” in the first place

            • Flying Squid@lemmy.worldM
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              7 months ago

              The vast majority of Jews are white. Yes, there are a few exceptions like Beta Israel, or what you call Ethiopian Jews (less than 200,000 people) or Yemenite Jews (Around 400,000 people), but considering there are around 16 million Jews on the planet, around 11 million Ashkenazi and around 2 million Sephardic. I think “Jews are white” is, as a general rule, a correct statement whether or not someone like Elon Musk think otherwise. I mean there are non-white Icelanders, but I think most people would say that claiming Icelanders are white without specifying that that’s only a generality is acceptable as a statement.

              • beardown@lemm.ee
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                7 months ago

                But there’s a difference between saying most Icelanders are white and saying whiteness is a necessary condition to being Icelandic.

                Either ethnicity/race is a necessary component of belonging to a group, or it isn’t. And if it isn’t, then idk how one can claim that such a group is an ethnicity.

                So long as human beings who are black, Arab, Asian, etc can be Jewish, then idk how we can say that Jews are an ethnicity

                • Flying Squid@lemmy.worldM
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                  7 months ago

                  No one is saying whiteness is a necessary condition to being Icelandic or Jewish. The point is that when Elon says “you have said the actual truth” to someone who claims Jews are oppressing white people, he isn’t thinking of Beta Israel or Yemenite Jews. He isn’t even thinking of Sephardic Jews. He is thinking of Ashkenazi Jews, who are white. He just doesn’t understand that. He very likely doesn’t even know non-white Jews exist… but the Jews who are white are often not considered to be white because they are Jewish. It is the othering of Jews we’re talking about.

      • Aceticon@lemmy.world
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        7 months ago

        Oh, have no doubt about that.

        And it’s pretty straightforwardly so: for example claiming that somebody demonstrating against the killing of children by Israel is an anti-semite is implying that killing children is a Jewish thing to do, which is incredibly close to the “Jews eat babies” kind of propaganda from the Nazis: even the worst actual antisemites in the present day weren’t going around claiming that murdering children is a Jewish thing to do.

        That’s just how out of control the Israeli ultra-violent and extremelly racist Fascists and their racist Fascist supporters in places like the US are.

        • APassenger@lemmy.world
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          7 months ago

          I grew weary if anti-genocide protests being framed as pro-palestinian.

          Neither side is entirely free of bloodshed. It’s about stopping the bloodshed which means, I’d think, reducing the us vs them, not entrenching it.

          Does anyone know how that framing became so consistent? Not in a speculative way, but with evidence?

          • Aceticon@lemmy.world
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            7 months ago

            Well, in the tribalist kind of thinking everybody must always be pro-some-faction or against-some-faction and the far-right (including Fascists tribes such as Zionists) are seldom deep thinkers and skeptics, so are almost without exception tribalists.

            So it makes absolute sense that Zionists (and members of other political tribes whose “chiefs” have decided to support Zionism) claim that people who are demonstrating because of their Principles (in this case Humanist ones, like “though shall not kill innocent civilians”) are doing so because of being pro-some-faction. Further, I would even say that the Zionists absolutelly believe that claim they’re making and are speaking the truth as they see it: they simply cannot conceive of people being anything but tribalists who will put tribalism above all else (even any leftover Principles they might have) so people must be pro-some-faction or anti-some-faction to be demonstrating.

            (PS: Whilst this is not evidence, it does match what I’ve observed first hand in situations like the Brexit Referendum in the UK. It also matches my observations as member of a political party in my homeland, since most political party members tend to be tribalist, even in leftwing parties, which as somebody who returned from abroad with no pre-existing “love for the team’s shirt” and chose a party to join and help based on the principles they seemed to support, made me quite an atypical member and gave a wonderful chance to observe political tribalists in their “natural environment”)

            This is also why I believe a lot of the propaganda techniques being deployed by the Biden Campaign to try and get votes from people who are against the current actions of the Zionists because it goes against their Principles are incredibly misguided - Principled people aren’t pro-Biden or even anti-Trump, they’re pro or against some kinds of action no matter who does it, and things like “aversion to the murder of children” tend to be some of the stronguest principles around so likely to be much stronger for a non-tribalist that the “uuh, those other guys are bad” tribalist-heavy arguments.

            I wouldn’t be surprised if many people don’t end up in the voting booth, intellectually ready to swallow their Principles and vote Biden purelly to stop Trump, and can’t actually bring themselves to cast a vote.

            Anyways, all this are theories and if Biden keeps on supporting the Zionists and their Genocide, we shall see.

      • BarbecueCowboy@lemmy.world
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        7 months ago

        In terms of sheer military might, the size of Israel’s military is very substantial compared to the listed countries. Other countries would likely come to their defense if it happened, but if it came to a fight between Israel and just Norway/Ireland/Spain, it would be very hard to call Israel a small dog. Spain might be a bit of a challenge but Norway and Ireland would likely barely even register.

        Obviously, all those countries have friends and are probably pretty safe because of that, but also not entirely idle threats.

          • WIZARD POPE💫@lemmy.world
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            7 months ago

            They just think that magically the countries will somehow share a border and then mighty isnotreal will win.

        • bigschnitz@lemmy.world
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          7 months ago

          Norway having a small military and being easy to bully sounds familiar, perhaps the Russians remember how that goes and can explain.

          • RubberElectrons@lemmy.world
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            7 months ago

            Yup. They’re very efficient militarily, as is Finland. See the Skjold-class as an example of their engineering style.

            • BarbecueCowboy@lemmy.world
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              7 months ago

              Efficiency is a thing and Norway might have an advantage there, but for example… the Skjold, there’s 6 of them in existence and the complement for them is listed as 15 people.

              The Norwegian Navy as a whole is 25 boats of various sizes, Israel is not a lot better with 67 and skews towards smaller boats and neither side is equipped to fight anywhere they both could reach. The entire Norwegian Navy is about 4,000 personnel compared to 9,500 for the Israeli Navy. It would be the weirdest Naval battle with two sides that have no business at all having a naval battle, but if they were determined to fight and could figure out where, the advantage is on Israel.

              • bigschnitz@lemmy.world
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                7 months ago

                If you just look at numbers maybe, we can see from Russia (large navy) vs Ukraine (no navy) that there are serious disadvantages when waging a war of attrition, even with relatively near distances and supply lines.

                The Israeli navy has no meaningful capability control Norwegian waters and they would be insane to try.

                • BarbecueCowboy@lemmy.world
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                  7 months ago

                  I’ve mentioned at least a few times that this theoretical would require both sides being dedicated to the conflict and no outside interference, with that I don’t see how that matters as both sides would have that problem to overcome.

                  Also, Ukraine does have a Navy. When you compare the actual ships to the Russian Navy or even just the Black Sea Fleet, it is almost a rounding error, but they still have a few dozen small ships floating around out there. The Ukrainian Navy still had 15,000 personnel as of 2022, but I’d guess that things likely have not been going great for them lately, not sure where that’s at now. I haven’t heard of any successful engagements using the few boats left, but they are very outclassed and I’d imagine outnumbered. Does exist though, several naval bases, and they are still fighting.

          • kerrigan778@lemmy.world
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            7 months ago

            It’s unreal how people do not understand the difference between defending a homeland, invading a country via an easily traversable large land border, attacking a country across a geographic barrier and attacking a country in a whole different part of the world. Israel’s ability to threaten mainland Europe would not amount to anything beyond terrorism, though potentially nuclear terrorism. All of Nazi Germany, fielding the industrial capacity of most of Europe was probably not capable of successfully invading even the UK across the English Channel, even if they weren’t distracted on the Eastern Front. They simply didn’t have the naval power required.

          • BarbecueCowboy@lemmy.world
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            7 months ago

            Not wrong from a historical perspective, but Norway would be outnumbered around 10:1 in manpower in modern times. Kind of hard to measure the… ‘level of military technology’, but Israel keeps it up to date and Norway hasn’t had to make that a real priority beyond posturing for awhile. Obviously not the likeliest scenario, but if everyone else stayed out of the way and they could figure out how to fight each other, that’s a really hard fight for Norway.

        • Maggoty@lemmy.world
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          7 months ago

          lol, Israel isn’t part of NATO. If they somehow got involved with Norway or Spain it would trigger Article 5. Ireland would trigger the entire EU. Israel is very much a small dog, especially at the rate they are burning their credibility in the western world. They’d have to turn to Russia for friends and that would mean the US bombing them to destroy sensitive American equipment they have and don’t want the Russians seeing no matter what.

          • BarbecueCowboy@lemmy.world
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            I mean, no one said they were? What did you think we were talking about in like at least half the comment you’re replying to. I mentioned that other countries would step in several times, what did you think that meant? Like, are you just restating my comment for me? I don’t get it.

            Really, the only scenario where this is more than interesting world building is kind of what you mentioned though. I.e., if NATO falls apart and the US also fucks up relations with Israel leading to them ending up on Russia’s side with others in some kind of World War 3 situation.

              • BarbecueCowboy@lemmy.world
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                7 months ago

                I mean yeah, that is exactly what I said in the initial comment at least twice, and then again.

                I don’t understand how we’re somehow arguing and saying the same thing.

        • Treczoks@lemmy.world
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          7 months ago

          And how are they going to move those soldiers to the target country? They are a pure defence force with basically no force projection capabilities.

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      7 months ago

      The word you’re looking for is nationalism. It’s the same word Netanyahu should be using to defend criticism of his nation, rather than antisemitism.

      Antisemitism is a form of racism and/or religious persecution that has affected Jews around the world for over two millennia, the majority of whom are unaffiliated with the Zionist state of Israel. It would be cool if you stopped making fun of it. I’d ask Netanyahu too, but I don’t see him on Lemmy.

      • TheBananaKing@lemmy.world
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        7 months ago

        That horse bolted decades ago; the term is lost.

        Just call it racism and be done. We don’t need specific terms for different demographics.

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          7 months ago

          It’s racism and/or religious persecution, hence the specific term. Not all genealogical Jews practice Judaism, and not all who practice Judaism are genealogically Jewish.

          • TheBananaKing@lemmy.world
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            7 months ago

            ‘Racism’ is a good enough umbrella term for ‘being shitty to people because of some demographic category’. Whether the basis is ethnic, national, religious or anything else doesn’t seem like an important distinction. Nobody considers ‘race’ to be a useful term any more, after all.

            • Tryptaminev@lemm.ee
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              7 months ago

              I think we should use specific terms for specific things. There is differences in the origins, interests and means of different bigotries. Antisemitism is very different from Racism against Black people, which is very different from Racism against Asian people, which is different again from Racism towards Middle Easterners or general Islamophobia.

              For Jews it makes sense to distinguish Antisemitism, as it is specific in regards to the Religion+Ethnicity combination you just don’t find with Christianity or Islam. E.g. there is many Christians and Muslims of all ethnicities while most religious Jews are also ethnically Jewish.

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              7 months ago

              Cool. I’m glad you think so. I’ll just go ahead and inform all 16 million Jews that TheBananaKing finally made his decision.

      • peg@lemmy.world
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        7 months ago

        Antisemitism is now a meaningless term. Good luck reclaiming it.

  • febra@lemmy.world
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    7 months ago

    So Israel is just being a pariah of the world as usual. Nothing new.

    As of now Slovenia, Spain, Norway, Ireland, Malta, Trinidad and Tobago have announced they will soon start recognizing the state of Palestine. That brings the number of countries that recognize the state of Palestine to around 150 countries out of 193 countries in the UN.

    Not only that but around four fifths of the world population lives in these countries. So an overwhelming majority both in the UN and on a population scale recognize them.

    With that being said, let’s go Israel. Be more of a pariah than you already are. Close yourself off from all these countries. Shoot yourself in the foot.

  • Veraxus@lemmy.world
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    7 months ago

    So they are going with North Korea theory of foreign of relations. That’s a bold strategy, Cotton. Let’s see if it pays off for them.

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      7 months ago

      It’s crazy to think that we can now include Israel in a short list alongside North Korea and China.

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    7 months ago

    Can they just shut the fuck up already and end their war? They’re just firing wildly and killing Palestinian civilians, hostage Israeli civilians, and even themselves! Occasionally they’re getting a member of Hamas.

    Just fucking throw in the towel and take the L. Part of me this at this point that Netanyahu is partially prolonging the war because he wants Democrats to be divided and Trump to win so he has an even friendlier US.

    Why do the good die young, and the evil live forever?

    • irreticent@lemmy.world
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      7 months ago

      They’re just firing wildly and killing Palestinian civilians, hostage Israeli civilians, and even themselves!

      It might almost be better if it was just them wildly shooting into the crowd. They’re actually targeting civilians, medical and food aid workers, journalists covering the genocide, etc. It’s intentional.

      *Edit: typo