- In short: Transgender woman Roxanne Tickle is suing social media platform Giggle for Girls after she was excluded from the women-only app.
- She is alleging unlawful discrimination on the basis of gender identity while the app’s founder has denied she is a woman.
- What’s next? The hearing is expected to run for four days.
A transgender woman who was excluded from a women-only social media app should be awarded damages because the app’s founder has persistently denied she is a woman, a Sydney court has heard.
In February 2021, Roxanne Tickle downloaded the Giggle for Girls social networking app, which was marketed as a platform exclusively for women to share experiences and speak freely.
Users needed to provide a selfie, which was assessed by artificial intelligence software to determine if they were a woman or man.
Ms Tickle’s photograph was determined to be a woman and she used the app’s full features until September that year, when the account became restricted because the AI decision was manually overridden.
I have nothing to add, just amused by the fact that a Tickle can’t get a giggle.
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congratulations sir, you won this thread! :)
Wow an app based on gender descrimination is being sued for gender descrimination. I’m shocked
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Trans women are women if people understand the word women to include trans women. More than that, unless you want to lift everyone’s skirt before adressing them then you might as well just call the people that look like women women and the people that look like men.
unless you want to lift everyone’s skirt
And sometimes even if you do.
Ms Tickle’s counsel Georgina Costello KC told the court her client has a birth certificate stating her gender as female and has had gender affirming surgery.
Nobody’s going that far just to get one over on your stupid fucking app.
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“If I found out a woman I dated was trans i’d probably kill her”
What the fuck is wrong with you? People like you need to be put in a mental asylum. You are not fit to be in society and your mental instability is a threat to the public. Your kind are the type that shoot up a mall when your crush rejects you.
Guy thinks there are Shi Pei Pu walking around everywhere.
Listen, mate, threatening to kill people is a pretty shit way to interact with anyone. If you don’t want to date someone with a penis, maybe say so up front. No one is trying to trick you, and no one is trying to lie to you. They’re just trying to live life, same as anyone.
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Wow I think we’ve found the most insecure person on lemmy
Yawn
Words have meaning as defined by people. They are subject to change.
You know what this means though? It means that no one ever needed to push back against it at all just not engage in it themselves. Cuz they just eat each other in a vacuum. Without some enemy to band together against like the boogeyman of boogeymen whitey, their inner chaos is all they’re left with with no enemy to project it on, so they eat each other and everything just crashes and falls apart. No one needed to do anything, not even complain, just look at it in amusement and take another sip of their coffee and go about their day thanking god that’s not you.
You are arguing that communities can’t exist unless they unite against a foe?
Ozymandias moment
His community can’t and if he was capable of imagining other people’s lives, he wouldn’t be far-right in the first place.
Growing up means recognizing someone can understand someone without empathizing.
Their name checks out though.
No my argument is some people all they have in them is “fight against a foe”. It means if you don’t present yourself as a foe they’ll walk right past you, it’s like a trex. It’ll only chase something that moves, so because they are always in fighting even with no opponent they will make one within themselves because those are the only people looking for a fight.
Like they have 0 interaction with people who aren’t interested in a fight. Take note that some random accused me of being far righter hoping I would take their bait. It’s pathetic at best. It’s truly an example of the snake eating its own tail.
Did you forget you’re not in your sleazy little far-right bubble?
I’m not a right winger. I just see an ouroboros when I see it, it’s the snake eating itself.
Bit redundant, no?
Blantant lie.
Epic name
This thread was fated to be a dumpster fire from the instant it was created
Edit: 6 people dont seem to understand what an unholy combination it is to merge: Transphobia, Misandry, AI, and somewhat silly names on the internet
I’ll explain my down-vote as per your edit: people don’t like thread meta discussions. It’s unproductive, mean and frankly just lazy. Keep that on reddit.
Lmao nah, I think I’ll keep commenting according to my own values and you can keep commenting according to yours. Thank you for explaining your downvote though!
You’re free to do whatever you want just pointing out that down votes don’t necessarily mean you are being bullied by bigots or whatever you’re imagining so conclusively here. Your comment might just suck 🙄
Did I say I was being bullied? And tbh, if we’re gonna use up and downvotes to determine whether or not my comment sucks, it definitely doesnt look like it sucks
Edit: I imagine its one of my more upvoted comments because I’m not alone in entering this thread, seeing the dumpster fire the comment section was in, looking at the contents of the thread starter and then being like “Yeah, ok, that makes sense”
You’re conflating subjective and objective here my dude
I dont think those words mean what you think they do
I don’t think you think what you think you think
I’m not familiar with Australian law, but how do you get to “discrimination on the basis of gender identity” in this case. Wouldn’t the case for that be a trans man trying to join or stay on the app? (Or a cis man for that matter).
It sounds like Tickle’s position is that the app should be discriminating based on gender identity. Her complaint seems more like them discriminating on (vaguely defined policy ammounting to) assigned gender at birth.
Having said that, I suspect their tune will change if a trans man tried joining.
Having said that, I suspect their tune will change if a trans man tried joining.
Exactly this. I fucking guarantee they wouldn’t let a trans man join and actively contribute.
Idk. I think a big point of the app is to discuss growing up female. Nothing against trans women, and I Believe trans women are women, but as a cis woman, I think I’d have more in common talking about my past with a trans male than with a trans female. We’d have similar stories of being treated a certain way growing up.
I get that, but I bet the trans woman would feel much more in common with you in how she grew up than me. While you might not feel much in common with her, she would probably feel really comforted to hear your stories that align with what she was feeling.
You can get your sex changed on your birth certificate in NSW according to Wikipedia. Not a lawyer, but I’m gonna guess the app is shit-out-of-luck on this one if their birth certificate indicates they’re a woman.
Ms Tickle’s photograph was determined to be a woman and she used the app’s full features until September that year, when the account became restricted because the AI decision was manually overridden.
I’d love to know the story behind the manual overriding.
Apparently she defended trans people in a conversation, someone complained, and moderators got involved and manually overrode the ai. Paraphrased hearsay.
I think she will win this. They didn’t require a genital photo so what’s even their proof? Arbitrary requirement anyways. Rules like that only leave people out. I understand the want for a space like that though. I hope this woman finds a space where she can feel safe.
Why not create an app for trans women?
I think she’ll lose. Because regardless of the issue, a private company can terminate service at any time, for any reason.
It’s also been upheld that a graphic artist who wants to design wedding websites can refuse to work with same-sex couples. What this means is, again, a company can pick and choose who to serve.
The case in the OP is in Australia. Your story is from the US and has absolutely zero bearing on any likely outcome.
I mean, given what’s happening with the women’s only art exhibit at the MONA right now, this woman definitely has a legal leg to stand on even with this being a private company.
Even if it’s just a matter of false advertising (if the app means cis women they should say cis women, not say “women” and then go out of their to exclude an entire group of women) or compensation for being given access then having access removed.
Fair enough. Just making a prediction. It’s a weird subject imo like, can you make a black only site? Can you make a white only site? Kind of the same territory, you know?
If you’re a private entity and there is a specific reason that having non-black people in the group would be detrimental to the purpose of the group, yes, in Australia you can make a black only space.
For example, if you want to create a support group for POC to discuss trauma around being subjected to racism, to ensure you create a safe space, making the space POC only is not only legal, but often the more ethical choice for this group.
Want to create a social and dating app for queer women to meet other queer women? What purpose would it serve to let straight people into that group?
There is difference between public spaces, that must allow access and entry to all, and a private organisation that caters to specific demographics, and being freely open would completely defeat the purpose of the private organisations goals.
I’m not an alcoholic, I don’t personally know anyone who has struggled with alcoholism. Why can’t I go to an AA meeting to talk about my feelings on alcoholism? Obviously, Because that’s not helpful, it has the potential to be harmful to the people who attend because they have lived experiences with alcoholism. I could argue I’m being discriminated against because of my medical history, but I’m not being discriminated against, I’m just not being catered to, because I don’t have an unmet need in this specific situation.
Good example. Now what if someone identifies as a POC? Example
Again, it depends on the purpose of the group you’re creating, does this person in question face discrimination for their perceived race? Then a support group for people who have faced discrimination for their race may be the right place for them, assuming the intersection of having “chosen” to present as a race they’re not doesn’t create an unsafe space for the other group participants.
However if your group is for people who have grown up POC or been raised in a non-dominant cultural group to discuss shared experiences, then obviously someone who identifies as POC later in life would not be served by that group, so would not be eligibile to join that group.
There are circumstances when even if you fit the criteria of the group, you may still be excluded due to the way various identities and experiences intersect, or because your personal actions are not serving the group.
It’s not discrimination to be told you can’t use a private service because the service can’t serve your specific needs, and your personal circumstances reduce the groups ability to serve its other members.
What I found most interesting about that case is she was arguing that Christianity was homophobic and got the Supreme Court to agree with her.
It was a bit of a floor dropping out from underneath me moment when I figured that out. How many years have I pointed out that being LGBT and a follower of Christ are inconsistent, and if you are LGBT with Christian friends you are their project? No one listens to me. And here one of them goes, spends all this effort and time, and manages to convince the court system that yes being a religious Christian means that you hate gay people.
I doubt I have convinced anyone of this in my entire life, she made it an officially recognized fact. And this event will never be untrue since it did happen! For as long as records exist we will have a record of the moment where the US government agreed with me about what Christianity believes.
What I found most interesting about that case is she was arguing that Christianity was homophobic and got the Supreme Court to agree with her.
Cool, now do the rest of the religions. Is there a religion that isn’t either homophobic, transphobic or misogynistic?
UU is consider a religion at least for tax purposes.
The Satanic Temple.
FSM?
a private company can terminate service at any time, for any reason
Not after they’ve accepted payment.
Citing the most egregiously frivolous case imaginable to make this point…
I’m not agreeing with the verdict, just making a prediction.
you dont have to put on the red light
those days are over
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I don’t understand.
It’s okay to discriminate against men but not transgender women?
While I certainly agree with you that discrimination based on sex is unacceptable im most contexts, I believe that gender exclusive spaces, unless they hinder people directly, sometimes are a good thing.
My dad is a mental health professional and founded a weekly ‘only-men’ self help group. He found that some things they talked about there wouldn’t have worked with women involved. That group existed for about 5 years or so and helped quite a few struggling men.
So yeah, unless there’s any maliciousness involved, I’d argue that gender exclusiity is not bad in every context.
If women have gender exclusive spaces, men also should have them. Women have invaded male spaces for decades.
‘Invaded’ lol what. Dude the boys club is a real thing. And it’s everywhere.
That’s a bit different. A little private group is not a for-profit company. The difference between not being invited to a family only event when you aren’t family and not being allowed into a restaurant chain because of your race.
The group I referenced had a paid membership. Scale that up and make it digital and you may end up with a gender exclusive social media app.
I get what you mean though, but I feel there’s a bit more nuance than what you imply.
Welcome to 2024, women can’t have their own things anymore… (and I’m talking about REAL women, you know, the individuals have two X chromosomes).
Time to identify as a cis lesbian and not as a trans woman.
How does that even work?
I mean, to be a cis lesbian also implies being a cis woman…
I just call you a bigot if you deny me my identity and treating me properly as if I was that identity. I am a cis woman. You will treat me like one because I will not be misgendered or treated with misogynistic bullshit.
I’m not trying to be rude, I’m trying to understand.
As far as the language is concerned, I’m just trying to understand how a trans woman could be a cis lesbian, when my understanding is that being cis and being trans are mutually exclusive.
Am I missing something?
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nah man, even the concept of self-segration by sex feels severely outdated in 2024. Just don’t do that, it’s not very hard.
Sexism is rife in incel communities.
What’s the point of a woman’s only app (or any women’s only space) if they let anyone in simply based on them saying ‘I’m a woman’?
Dude, there’s like four sentences and they’re all on this page and it says it takes an AI assessed picture of your face to determine if you’re a woman. Why are people so fucking lazy and snarky?
The question you have to ask here is “if anyone can just sign up then how was she noticed, and if they spend any time verifying then how did they not realize she was very serious about her womanhood?”. She’s had gender-affirming surgery and you’re really out here saying “if they let anyone in simply based on them saying ‘I’m a woman’?”.
They’re clearly doing some work here and not doing it very well. And you’re missing very important facts.
Maybe because everything about the space still caters to women’s concerns, and the presumption for a random-ass social media app should be that your appearance doesn’t determine your intent? If somebody’s daily life is being a woman, then why the fuck should it matter which parts they have? Are you also going to exclude gay women, or women who cut their hair short, or women who choose not to have kids? After all, they’re not having all the same issues that long-haired cis-het mothers have.
Not to mention it’s a technologically stupid gate to keep. In what fucking world does it deter anyone who is willing to be dishonest?
Because she is a woman. It’s really that simple.
