It’s not EV’s I’m skeptical of hey.
It’s the cars they are making. The evs are all quite expensive and then all new cars seem to be taking the opportunity to tack on all these extra subscriptions and such.
I’m never buying a car where heated seats are bound to my car app account on a subscription like seriously…
We need an open source electric car.
Many EV are just wasting too much energy for useless stuff. I love the dacia spring, it so reduced, that it only wights about 1000kg and still has about 200km (33kw motor and 29kw/h battery(my version))
Bless your heart if you think this is limited to EVs.
Most of the car subscription items don’t bother me. Many are like cosmetic skins in game. The car still works well without them. Lets look at Tesla just because they are popular:
- Full Self Drive, one-time $20k - No way is this required. Skipped it.
- Enhanced Autopilot, one-time $6k - Auto lane change and vehicle summon in a parking lot. Car drives fine without it. Skipped
- Acceleration boost, one-time $2k - Without this the car 0-60MPH is 4.2 seconds. That’s PLENTY fast for me. Skipped
- Premium connectivity, recurring $10/month or $99/year - Gives you a web browser on the dash, photoview satellite images in navigation instead of line drawing, and lets you stream music from Slacker or stream your Netflix movies from the car cell radio. I don’t need any of that and have better choices for music. I can stream video from my phone when I’m stopped if I need to.
None of that stuff is required and the usability and features of the car are still really good.
Further, for many of those factory hardware locked features there are one-time aftermarket solutions to enable them from third parties, though I have never had the need or desire for those things.
Honestly it’s sort of the principle of it.
Like the car has it, it’s already cost the manufacturer to install it sure there are ongoing dev costs for some things, but not all.
On top of that many manufacturers are locking the features to the one person.
So for example I pay for heated seats. Then I sell the car, and the new owner has to “buy” heated seats again.
I’m sorry I’m not supporting that bullshit or the manufacturers who are doing this one bit even if I don’t pay for a feature.
On top of that there are issues with servicing and also forced firmware updates.
A friend was late to work the other day because his Tesla was doing an update when he tried to leave, like what happens if someone was trying to rush a partner to a hospital or something and you happen to jump in the car as it’s mid way through an update.
I want to be in control of the things I own and pay for, that’s the whole point of owning something. Car manufacturers these days seem to be under the delusion that they still own our vehicles and we are just the money sacks they are renting them to.
This has been going on for a while, but seem much much worse on the electric cars.
Also frankly the infrastructure isn’t there in many places around the world.
It’s not just waiting to charge the car that’s the issue, it’s waiting for the charger… when each vehicle takes up to 30min-an hour to get a meaningful amount of range back suddenly you need like 10x as many charging stations as you had petrol/diesel pumps.
And while this may be in place in some places in the world it’s not in most. Add this to the fact that charging points are often out of order well you start to see the issue.
Honestly it’s sort of the principle of it. Like the car has it, it’s already cost the manufacturer to install it sure there are ongoing dev costs for some things, but not all.
I know this isn’t an obvious point, but if you got the car how you wanted it, it would actually cost more for things you may not care about. The complaint then would be “why is the car so expensive? Why don’t they sell a more basic version?”
When a manufacture has to actually build different cars with different features at time of manufacture it drives up the costs for ALL models. They can’t easy substitution when market conditions change and could be stuck with only the premium versions which cost more. A great example of this is the Ford Lightning. There were as many as 12 different model/trim levels. One of the primary complaints of prospective buyers is only the premium priced versions were on dealership lots. This is what you get.
The car is cheaper with the addons disabled. If forced to sell with all addons enabled, the car would be much more expensive for things may people don’t care about.
So for example I pay for heated seats. Then I sell the car, and the new owner has to “buy” heated seats again.
I’m not understanding your argument here. If we’re talking Tesla, and you bought the $2k Acceleration Boost, if you sold the car to someone, that $2k feature would still be there. Who is removing paid enabled addons? Can you cite an example?
On top of that there are issues with servicing and also forced firmware updates.
Besides NTSB recall firmware updates, a you can make a Tesla not force a firmware update. It may nag though.
This isn’t something new though, its just the delivery. About 18 years ago, there was a Honda firmware that I DID NOT WANT INSTALLED. I had to take the Honda 2003 car to a Honda dealer for warranty work, and SPECIFICALLY TOLD THEM NOT TO INSTALL THAT FIRMWARE. They did anyway. So this is nothing new to EVs or even modern cars.
A friend was late to work the other day because his Tesla was doing an update when he tried to leave, like what happens if someone was trying to rush a partner to a hospital or something and you happen to jump in the car as it’s mid way through an update.
Your friend may not have told you the whole story.
A Tesla firmware will prompt you when it wants to install. It will tell you “this takes about 25 minutes to complete and the car will be unusable during that time”. You can choose to install it immediately by pressing the button when prompted, or set a time for it to wake the car and install it. Even if you accidentally say “install now” it gives you a 2 minute countdown on screen to cancel it. So your buddy either scheduled it to install 30 min before he was supposed to go to work, or he hit the button to install it, waited for the entire 2 minute cancellation period to expire and did nothing.
It’s not just waiting to charge the car that’s the issue, it’s waiting for the charger… when each vehicle takes up to 30min-an hour to get a meaningful amount of range back suddenly you need like 10x as many charging stations as you had petrol/diesel pumps.
You’re projecting for a problem that likely won’t happen in the scale you’re describing. Battery tech is evolving fast. Modern batteries can charge in a fraction of time of those even sold 3 years ago. This charging speed of battery as well as faster chargers look to be solving this.
Further, 80% of EV drivers charge at home. source Nearly 0% of petrol drivers refuel at home, so comparing the two isn’t equivalent.
No. The add ons are already installed. The car would not cost the manufacturer any more money. Turning on your pre-installed heated seat does not cost them any money. In fact it would have been cheaper to not install a blocking mechanism.
So now we have to pay for all this equipment on the car that we don’t want or need. We have to pay for their subscription mechanism that’s already in the car as well. And then if we did want to use a feature, we’d have to pay that subscription to turn it on.
That’s the definition of rent seeking behavior. They haven’t added any actual value for that second payment. They merely blocked you from using part of what you already bought until you paid them an arbitrary amount.
No. The add ons are already installed. The car would not cost the manufacturer any more money. Turning on your pre-installed heated seat does not cost them any money. In fact it would have been cheaper to not install a blocking mechanism.
Except those add ons wouldn’t be in the car if the OP got their way. If “its installed already turn it on for free” was the action, then manufacturers wouldn’t put those addons in. They’d have to create separate versions of the cars with, say, seat heaters and not instead. That doesn’t save you, the consumer, money. It makes it *more expensive for you because they now have to have separate production line options, inventory management, logistics, etc.
So now we have to pay for all this equipment on the car that we don’t want or need.
Except you’re NOT paying for it. Its in there, but the manufacturer REDUCED THE CAR COST TO YOU by disabling it.
We have to pay for their subscription mechanism that’s already in the car as well. And then if we did want to use a feature, we’d have to pay that subscription to turn it on.
I’ve seen third party workaround options for paid seat heaters. So no, you wouldn’t have to pay a subscription if you used those.
I’m sorry has the cost of a car gone down at any point? No? Then it’s not cheaper is it? It might be cheaper to make, but then if that’s true we’re paying for installed items plus an extra monopoly premium.
Which is called rent seeking behavior.
I’m sorry has the cost of a car gone down at any point?
This is a bad faith statement. You’re not an idiot and you’re well aware that thousands of different inputs raise or lower the overall price of a car including basic things like inflationary actions which have nothing to do with the components of the car, but result in prices increases of the car.
I could probably find an equally bad faith statement indeed showing the car being cheaper because of the prior increases in 2020 during the pandemic shortage, but I’m not going to find a misleading statement to back that up just to score “points”. Its not honest, and I"m not willing to do that.
If this is the level of conversation that we’re now at, I think we’ve reach the end of it being productive.
Have a nice day.
Ew. No, fuck tesla.
Sure fine, fuck tesla, but can you separate your feelings from Tesla for a moment to discuss the topic or do we need to shop for a brand that you are okay discussing that also has paid addon features before you contribute to the discussion?
That was my contribution to the discussion. Have a nice day!
You didn’t tell us about what you had for breakfast, the weather in your locality, or perhaps your current bathroom habits yet. Each would have been equal to your contribution to the conversation so far.
The biggest issue here is there’s only one thing in that list I’d consider a subscription and that’s the data connectivity. Especially in a Tesla where there’s no option to have Android auto or apple carplay then the only ways you can stream audio would be through Bluetooth so no options to change anything other than skip and replay the songs in a playlist. I don’t particularly mind there being a one time cost for most of those features even though they’re ridiculously expensive but the worst of it is on Ford, GM and Stalantis.
Those 3 manufacturers (and maybe more? I’m not sure) have subscriptions for their self driving functions which are included in the car and already paid for. These functions are processed on the car so this is nothing more than a digital lock to features that are already included in the car price.
Especially in a Tesla where there’s no option to have Android auto or apple carplay then the only ways you can stream audio would be through Bluetooth so no options to change anything other than skip and replay the songs in a playlist.
You can use your phone as a hotspot if you subscribe to Tidal or Spotify without any Tesla connectivity. You can also subscribe to SiriusXM and not have any Tesla connectivity.
I refuse to believe you are a real person. Maybe a masterful troll. This statement is bottom of the barrel levels dumb.
I’m not a troll. Are you interested in discussing your opposing position or just crapping on mine and walking away?
If my first post was too wordy my thesis boils down to this: At least in Tesla, which is the only one I have first hand knowledge of, the paid addons are not required. If others want to buy them, they’re welcome to, but I’m not and the resulting experience of the car I’m quite satisfied with. If you read a number of the replies from others, they’re trying to make my position something it isn’t and then knocking down that strawman.
Most of the car subscription items don’t bother me. Many are like cosmetic skins in game.
I am not wasting my time other than to argue over this position. Anything else take up with anyone else, not me specifically. What I’ve quoted is a stupid position that relys for us consumers to overly rely on the car manufacturers. If tesla wants to strictly lease cars that is their right but if you are selling me a car as a service be explict. If you are selling me a car you are selling me a car with complete functioning features. I cannot depend on a company to last forever. When it tanks and my car bricks, that is unacceptable risk for buyers. Do not capitulate to the auto manufacturers. Its a brain dead mistake and no amount of corporate cup and ball games will make me change my mind.
I cannot depend on your company to last forever and when it tanks my car bricks and that is unacceptable risk on a buyers behalf.
I’m not aware of any core features for functionality that would stop working if the company tanks. The only re-occurring subscription with Tesla is the premium connectivity which the web browser and internet streaming music services.
Do you have the expectation that automobile manufacturers should be required to provide a free internet service in perpetuity for purchasing a car?
What part of the car do you believe stops working if the company tanks?
This is the end game of add-on services. This is the end game of subscription based service. Transfer all the liability to the customer and put them on subscription based services. Buy our cars, now featuring enshitificstion.
This is the end game of add-on services. This is the end game of subscription based service.
It sounds like you’re speaking about a possible future of where this could go, and not what is today with Tesla at least. Since the only subscription on Tesla is the optional premium connectivity, Tesla isn’t the start of that. Your complaint is with General Motors with its Onstar service started 28 years ago. source. Just like GM Onstar, the Tesla car still works fine without that subscription.
Transfer the liability to the customer and put them on subscription based services.
Which liability are you talking about?
You didn’t answer my clarifying question about your statement of how the car would be bricked if the company goes under.
Can tell you’re in your 20s.
Your detector needs calibration then.
Irrespective of that, may I ask you to address the message instead of the messenger? What part of what I posted do you disagree with? I’m open to discussion and interested in your opinions if we can be civil with one another.
“Gas is a little more convenient, so lets destroy our sole, shared, communal ecosystem we all rely on from one breath to the next so I don’t have to wait for my car to charge.”
Oh humans, don’t ever change. For Earth’s long-term sake, we need to make sure we commit to our species’ mass suicide for short term profit and convenience. No half measures.
Transportation is a tiny fraction of carbon emissions. And EVs are a small improvement within that. Regulations and investment into things that matter are the only way out of this problem.
yeah because the solution is not for us all to individually get a less energy demanding car. its a collective change in our ways, humane public transport.
Wrong. We want affordable EVs, ideally not not sold by an openly fascist billionaire eternally-divorced childmanboy.
My first complaint with Tesla is the shit tablet for everything. I don’t want to have to look at a screen while trying to drive. Elon is a shit but every publicly traded company is going to be owned in some regard by a billionaire fascist.
The only thing worse for adoption than only selling high priced EVs, is attempting to sell high priced EVs when interest rates are high.
Plus, no one ever talks about the switchover to NACS plugs in the US. Except for Tesla, most companies have announced they will switch plugs on a year or two. I hear “in a year or two these old ones will be difficult to charge and lose all its resale value”, so why would I buy?
I plan on waiting for NACS myself, but they do have adapters coming to use Tesla chargers on current non-NACS EVs. Some will provide them for free to recent owners.
In Ireland the Tesla chargers have both plugs. The NACS is already attached to a CCS plug in the charger. Depending on the car it releases the combo plug or just the NACS plus. Cool mechanism.
How about you make one that doesn’t cost 30k more than a normal car… gees.
Their EV is about $8k more than a similar MB ICE SUV. Seems to be they just want to keep making easy money off innovating pay walls for remote start.
Probably because they are far more complicated than a regular car and have expensive batteries with precious metals? Oh and we haven’t been mass producing them for 100 years either.
An EV is on all fronts more simple. It’s the reason so many new car companies are being started.
It absolutely has an upfront cost to design and ramp up production though.
Bro it’s just a battery, some motors, a computer, an IO system, and some brakes. An amateur with money and free time could rip the guts out of a traditional car and make it fully electric by following an online tutorial.
I’m really optimistic about electric vehicles, I don’t know what you’re talking about. LOL.
Are you still optimistic after looking at the price of a Mercedes EV?
I never buy new so I don’t personally care. There will be a guy selling it on Craigslist in a few years and I will buy it from him. Thus my optimism.
Where are you going to buy your replacement battery?
Where are you going to buy your replacement gasoline engine and transmission? The previous owner decided that oil change intervals were more of a guideline anyway. One big win in buying a used EV is that maintenance is minimal, so there’s less worry about how the previous owner treated the car.
I promise replacing your drivetrain at 200k is going to cost more than a battery pack.
I can get an aftermarket LiFePo battery replacement for my prius for 1/10th the cost of an OEM. It’s just a bunch of laptop batteries in a box, it really doesn’t have to be super expensive. As adoption grows aftermarket battery replacements will plummet in price.
Oh well, I changed a few years back transmission for my bmw. I bought a rebuilt one which cost 1000 euros and the shop asked 1000 euros for the work. I think there arent really prices put yet for example MB batteries as theyre still under warranty? But I’d take a guess that battery pack would be a bit more expensive.
The price in the US for a rebuilt transmission plus swap on a BMW is about $5000. So I guess it depends on location.
Temu? Seriously not a big issue for me personally. I literally did battery vehicle integrations for about 10 years. But yeah, others are going to need more battery techs or integrators etc. today’s mechanics will need to stretch again from ICE experts to battery integration experts. My guess is that it will be a good 10 years of tech transition. Meantime the political assholes with their worthless shit filled skulls will need cow prodding to get them to require battery standardization. So long as the size of the battery can come in predictable modules, then car makers can design around that and the dream of interchangeable battery systems could be realized…like it could be a standard voltage and amperage with variable capacity but constant volume/shape, connectors, interface signals etc. When all those dominoes fall in place it will be like when cars started to look similar… R13 tires for example with standard lug locations can be used in many different cars from many makers and many model years. I hope it goes eventually happens. Then also recyclability needs plenty of work. The current batteries are not that bad. They are mostly carbon after all.
Honestly curious as to why this got downvoted?
Edit: Typo (“Damn you voice to text!” /shakesfistinair)
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Where are you going to buy your replacement battery?
Honestly curious as to why this got
downloadeddownvoted?Because it’s a short and moronic thought.
What’s wrong with short, if it gets to the point?
What’s moronic about it?
The reason I want to know is because no one ever talks about when those batteries wear out at ~ 100,000 miles and you have to replace them, and the thousands of dollars it cost to do so, and if that cost is considered into the purchase price, and if there are better/worst places to buy replacement batteries at.
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Because the overwhelming majority won’t wear out at 100k miles. ICE cars have engine failures early as well, so why are we picking on EVs? I just had to put my car in the dumpster at 112k because the head gasket failed and replacing it would cost 6 fucking thousand dollars!
Meanwhile my wife’s Prius has 300k on it and the battery is still at 70% capacity.
Mercedes has never been affordable, regardless of ICE or electric. It’s a car for the upper-middle class who want to pretend to be rich
My doubt about electric vehicles is based on my doubt that the automotive industry will produce a quality product at a reasonable price. They’re no different than any other short-term profit based business.
I agree. They seem to put everything in the cars and sell them as luxury EVs. Give me a basic car for $15k.
My doubt is based on the fact that public transportation and bicycle infrastructure is the obvious better and more environmentally economical solution for the majority of the population that lives in cities.
I say this as a gear head, do we really want people on the roads that don’t want to be driving? It should be a choice, not a requirement. Plus, driving in cities sucks.
Wish they would take the hybrid model and flip it. I love my gas/EV hybrid but the EV side of things is only good for 50miles or so. Its much more a gas vehicle really than an EV. Why not a primarily EV vehicle with large battery and a small gas generator for those Oh crap, I need another 50-100 miles right now with no time to charge moments?
Because you waste a lot energy transporting a heavy mostly useless gas tank and motor. In the other hand, if gas is main motor, you can use the battery / EV motor to get brake energy back and accelerate faster.
Yeah, seems like there could be a point where the gas engine sufficient to generate an emergency charge could be small enough that the impact while non negligible would be worth the elimination of battery fear. The tank could be empty most of the time and just available for a quick gas station fill if on a long trip and battery prediction is insufficient to reach the destination. Alternatively fast capacitor charges or a small swappable emergency battery that gas stations could carry for evs seem like systemic changes that could help with this issue.
Because 90% of the time 50 miles is enough for you (maybe not you, but most people) to get through the day and charge it, while you will only need gas on those long occasional trips.
People keep saying this, but when I’m buying a 40k car I want to be able to go shopping and cross country with my family. The fact that I’ll only use it for the occasional family trip is irrelevant. The point is my current ICE car does both things without any worry. If EVs want to win they need to be better than the ICE counterparts.
I want to reduce emissions but you’ll never get adoption of something that’s objectively worse. If I have to worry if it will start in the winter or reach the next town on my trip, it’s a non-starter. And that’s even before we get to the insane prices of new cars.
Yes
there’s a lot of abbreviations in the article that I don’t understand or know lol. what’s a BEV? HPEV? etc.
Good article tho. From my limited view prices definitely are a huge limiting factor for electric vehicles, though they brought up a good point about the charge times. I guess if people treated it like their phones (charge every night) then it wouldn’t be a problem?
Honestly not surprised that demand has dropped for them though. Anyone who was interested in it has either decided it’s not worth it or already has one. Price puts them out of most people’s budget, and with rising costs and stagnant wages, people can’t really afford to take on monthly payments anymore. The environmental friendliness of them is heavily marketed, but won’t bring into effect the large scale, immediate change we need to slow climate change. Plus there’s the whole Tesla thing with delayed shipping and paywalling features built into software (admittedly not up to brush with Tesla tho).
For a while they were a new, impressive technology, and while I still think they’re cool, until they become very, very cheap and accessible, I won’t be getting one. The fad is starting to die out.
Yes completely agree. Especially the price, most people don’t want to pay or can’t afford a 45-50k usd car after subsidies. (This is the minimum pricepoint to get something comparable to an average gas car, both trim wise and to get an at least acceptable range)
And let’s be honest about the subsidies, they just allow the car companies to charge a higher price in the first place… I expect the price to be about the same after they are gone.
Mercedes Bends.
Finally someone sees common sense. EV’s simply do not make sense. Petrol is the way to go. Just make the engines cleaner and leaner.
For the majority of the planet, petrol is far more accessible and affordable than electricity.
I’m sticking with petrol no matter what they say
Internal combustion has had over a century of research and engineering going into making the engines “cleaner and leaner”. It’s like squeezing blood out of a stone, that’s why you end up with features like auto-stop (where it cuts the engine if you idle for a bit) which barely save on petrol, but it’s a saving so they throw it in. Petrol is inherently dirty.
I’m sure there is more that can be done. I’ve heard that Porsche have developed a cleaner fuel that can power petrol cars. I’m waiting so that what that is.
Unfortunately the car manufacturers typically have supported the petrol suppliers, which are big powerful entities, but if they stop doing that and really focus on clean fuel, I’m sure it can be achieved.
EV’s at the moment are NOT good for the environment and create WAY more pollution than petrol cars in their manufacturing process. Making batteries produces WAY more pollution than what petrol cars with catalytic converters will ever make in a lifetime. This is a fact.
Do you have an article or something talking about this cleaner fuel? Toyota’s approach for a cleaner fuel is hydrogen, but that’s its own disaster due to all the issues with logistics and storage, among other things.
Thanks. This relies heavily on how well carbon capture technology works out. From what I’ve been reading, it’s pretty inefficient and expensive, at least currently. Whether it can scale is an open question. Additionally, burning this fuel will release whatever carbon was captured. This may help to slow down emissions, but better battery tech looks like it’ll go much further.
Batteries and their construction if at the moment a worse alternative. And involves slave labour.
At least C02 is already naturally occurring. Btw, humans and plants need C02 to live. Without it we die …
Batteries and their construction come out ahead over the life of the vehicle. There is nothing about battery manufacturing that requires slave labour. You could make the slave labour claim about anything being manufactured. As for your CO2 points, those are repeats of oil industry propaganda. Based on your point, why even bother trying to capture carbon when CO2 is so great, right? It’s a matter of amount. We need water to live, but drinking too much water will kill you.
