A US appeals court Saturday paved the way for a California law banning the concealed carry of firearms in “sensitive places” to go into effect January 1, despite a federal judge’s ruling that it is “repugnant to the Second Amendment.”
The law – Senate Bill 2 – had been blocked last week by an injunction from District Judge Cormac Carney, but a three-judge panel filed an order Saturday temporarily blocking that injunction, clearing the path for the law to take effect.
The court issued an administrative stay, meaning the appeals judges did not consider the merits of the case, but delayed the judge’s order to give the court more time to consider the arguments of both sides. “In granting an administrative stay, we do not intend to constrain the merits panel’s consideration of the merits of these appeals in any way,” the judges wrote.
I’m sure gun people will be pissed at me for this, but wanting to have a concealed gun on you doesn’t really make much sense to me if guns are supposed to be a deterrent. You aren’t deterring anyone with your gun if no one knows you have it. Shouldn’t you want to wear it where everyone can see it so they know not to try anything funny?
I don’t think guns are supposed to be a deterrent. Someone running to mug you isn’t thinking clearly about the possible complications or repercussions.
A carried gun is a commitment to kill someone before you are killed in a life or death situation. Not too feel cool or show off, or brandish as a warning.
Plus if you dress like a cowboy, someone might try to mug you FOR that gun, making you a bigger target.
That’s all pretty heavy, and the odds are low that you’d encounter that situation. So not a lot of people are willing to complicate their lives for it.
A carried gun is a commitment to kill someone before you are killed in a life or death situation. Not too feel cool or show off, or brandish as a warning.
In what world are you living in where someone comes up to you with a gun, in an attempt to kill you and you have time to remove your gun from wherever you’re concealing it, remove the safety and aim it before the person trying to kill you can kill you?
It certainly happens.
Just last week I saw a video where a man ran up with a gun to start a robbery. A woman whipped a handgun out of her purse and shot him.
The idea that personal firearms can’t be used for self defense is a silly argument.
If I know the video you’re talking about, it’s an off-duty cop from brazil.
A robbery isn’t an attempt to kill you.
It’s no different, both scenarios are threats to your life until the point the trigger is pulled (then it goes from threat to attempt).
I mean I literally said attempt in my comments so…
And basically anything can be a “threat” to your life. But I doubt even an American would agree with shooting someone because they cut you off in traffic.
Earth. This happens frequently on Earth. Perhaps it may shock you to find this out, but most criminals and thieves are not trained with firearms, and are not very good at shooting. Unless they’re already aiming at you and intent on murdering you, instead of just robbing you, or scaring you, they’re probably going to miss the first shot or two.
In what world are you living where protecting yourself and your family is not important?
In what world are you living where protecting yourself and your family is not important.
One where the general populace isn’t armed to the teeth? So I don’t have to worry about random crackheads shooting me.
I think the issue in the US is that there are so many guns per capita and the population is so anti authority that it will take generations of confiscation before you’ll get a majority of personal firearms out of personal hands.
And in the meantime you’ve removed the right for individuals to have the opportunity to defend themselves in dangerous situations.
I wouldn’t describe the US as anti-authority, but I get your point.
I’m not sure that it’s worth the time to describe different scenarios to you when you don’t understand how safeties work.
Instead, I suggest looking at the Active Self Protection YouTube channel.
The deterrent is the uncertainty of who may and may not have a gun on them. A lot of self defense is making yourself a harder target, the knowledge that a firearm might come into play and the victim may be proficient at using it makes anyone and everyone a harder target. It doesn’t mean desperate criminals won’t still make a move, but it should decrease the number of crimes attempted.
Again, it is already uncertain who may and may not have a gun on them.
but it should decrease the number of crimes attempted.
Is there any data to that effect or is that just wishful thinking?
I’d say the crime rates in no carry zones vs like… Red bits of Texas would be an indicator. No idea what those are but the number of stories out of Texas like “robber shot by 3 different people during hold-up”… Yeh.
Those stories are curated by the media. That is not good data any more than all the crime reports the media makes is an indication of the crime rate which has been dropping for years.
By saying it’s already uncertain, you’ve immediately made an assumption. Congratulations, you’re just as biased as the rest of us. Nothing you said so far has been supported by evidence.
Are you saying you can be certain that someone doesn’t have a gun concealed on their person where concealed carry is illegal?
Otherwise, I don’t think it’s an assumption.
It’s assumed that no one is armed in California because of all the unjust laws here. No thief is going to hesitate thinking “what if my target has a gun…”
It’s assumed
That’s sort of the crux of the issue here- this all seems to be based on assumptions rather than data. And even my merely asking for data has apparently been a step too far for some people judging by the downvotes.
I realize that guns in general are a hotbutton issue, but I really don’t think asking for data on concealed carry being a deterrent to crime is unreasonable when questioning the legality of it…
I don’t think you asked for anything. I think you made your own assumptions and they’re incorrect. Have a nice day.
I literally have asked for data and evidence over and over. Just view the comment thread. Do I need to start showing you screenshots with accompanying links? Because we can start with higher up in this very comment chain:
https://lemmy.world/comment/6318617
And what specifically have I assumed? Please quote an assumption I have made.
Obvious troll is obvious
The deterrent is supposed to be the possibility of armed people. The idea is supposed to be that allowing people to legally carry concealed weapons means that any potential victim might have a gun.
On the other hand, many gun owners who support concealed carry oppose open carry for several reasons.
First off, they don’t want to make them or their gun a target. They don’t want someone trying to steal their gun, and they don’t want to flag themselves as the first target for any kind of attack.
But another huge reason is that they feel like the only reason to carry openly in public is to make a political statement and carry around an implied threat. Most people who carry concealed consider themselves pretty normal people and they aren’t interested in making statements or threatening others. They just carry a gun.
I’ll occasionally carry my target postil concealed just to keep the gun secure while transporting it. It’s usually in a safe at the house, but when I’m going to the range or leaving town I’ll take it with me, and it’s less-likely to get stolen off my hip than it is by having my car window smashed. Keeping it hidden on my person is just another part of firearm safety.
Everyone I know that carries does so concealed. They don’t care about deterrents or whatever, they’re just taking a precaution they hope to never use. Like being mugged or attacked. Source: Texas.
You have far more confidence in people than I do. Hoping to never use it (except perhaps in that drunk fight with my neighbour)? I wouldn’t trust anyone who carries guns on the extremely remote probability that it will help them in a shooting/robbery.
One of my good buddies lives in North Las Vegas and has his CCW. He calls it a crackhead deterrent. I thought he was full of shit until I visited him, now I advocate for moving to a better neighborhood.
Wouldn’t you be less likely to be mugged or attacked if the potential mugger or attacker saw you had a gun? This is sort of what I’m saying…
IMO, a lot of people see the open carrying types to just be people cosplaying badasses. The type that has spent basically 0 time training to use it, outside maybe taking it to a range and firing off a hundred rounds. They see it as a gun to be stolen?
The only time I see open carry that seems to make sense in all of this is shop workers/cashier. I’ve been in stores that have a reputation based on what they sell to get hit by robbers, and the guy working is carrying outside his belt. Like a smoke shop or liquor store for example.
I’d like to see some actual data to support this. Much like I’d like to see some data that concealed carry actually has a negative effect on crime.
The most conservative estimates show that the adoption of “shall issue” right-to-carry firearm laws reduced murders by 8 percent, rapes by 5 percent, aggravated assault by 7 percent, and robbery by 3 percent. Although the initial drop in crime was often small, the longer the law was in effect, the larger the drop in crime over time. The benefits of concealed handguns were not limited to those who used a handgun in self- defense. By virtue of the fact that handguns were concealed, criminals were unable to tell whether a potential victim was equipped to strike back, thus making it less attractive for criminals to commit crimes when they came into direct contact with victims. An additional woman carrying a concealed handgun reduced the murder rate for women by approximately three to four times more than an additional man carrying a concealed handgun reduced the murder rate for men. Further, the study found that the increased use of guns in heated traffic disputes and the increased number of accidental handgun deaths was insignificant compared to the lives saved from violent crime that was prevented.
I cannot read that beyond the abstract, so I have no idea what to take away from that or what the actual evidence is.
Furthermore, the author of that piece appears to have a lot of issues with his research if his Wikipedia page is of any indication.
That’s on me, I thought the damn .gov site would hold the whole thing lol
Can’t help you there, again everything I said was my personal feelings on the matter being a Texan having talked to people about it a ton over the years.
You’re more likely to be targeted first in an attack if you have a visible weapon. Similar to how bank robbers will shoot the guards first if the guards have guns. If you have your weapon concealed you may be able to shoot the attacker before he is aware you have a weapon.
As I keep saying, you and the multiple other people who have made this claim have yet to provide anything to back this up in the way of hard evidence. It doesn’t matter if it makes sense to you that a shooter would shoot the armed civilian first, but, yet again, when has this actually happened?
You wont find that research because no one wants to do that research. Also how would you? It will always be anecdotal. I can only tell you my experience as a former soldier. I would shoot anyone who i saw with a weapon if i were committing a crime with a gun. It’s just common sense.
“Common sense” is the thing that made people think the sun orbited the Earth for thousands of years. Laws should be based on evidence, not “common sense,” which is why it isn’t surprising that most conservatives think “common sense” is behind everything they believe.
Why do so many of you here think we should make or strike down laws based on gut feelings?
Also “no one wants to do the research” is nonsense. The ability to do the research has been blocked for a very long time. The government is literally not legally allowed to do the research.
https://abcnews.go.com/US/federal-government-study-gun-violence/story?id=50300379
You and the others here simply want to do what feels right to you regardless of evidence, lack of evidence, or consequences. I’m not talking about any one side on gun issues either. I’m talking about people like you who don’t care whether or not there is evidence about the effectiveness or lack thereof when it comes to any law, but especially gun laws when it comes to America.
This isn’t a religious country, so why do you want your laws to be faith-based?
(To all of you arguing with me: those links you see above? That’s what is called backing up your claims.)
Sorry by common sense i meant my military training common sense would lead me to shoot anyone with a gun if i were committing a crime with a gun.
Squid, we have different views, thats fine but im just trying to explain my point of view. You obviously have me confused with someone else as ive not argued for anything faith based at all. Im not a conservative and you assuming that is probably why youre thinking people are arguing in bad faith. When i said no one wants to do the research that includes the US govt. i gave no justifications as to why no one wants to do research.
No, you’re more likely to be the first target and have someone attempt to disarm you. No one should know you have a concealed weapon unless they’re trying to kill you. Open carry is idiotic. Showing a gun if you’re not in fear for your life to the point where you’d shoot is brandishing, and it’s a felony.
I carry daily. The only person in real life who even knows I own a gun is my father.
A gun person might say open carry can also make you a target.
Then guns are definitely not a deterrent.
There is no such thing as a deterrent that deters people who don’t know about its existence, and if you’re a target by openly carrying the thing you call a deterrent, that doesn’t deter people either.
So maybe the argument that guns are a deterrent should be dropped by the people who want to carry their gun concealed about their person.
Well, I believe the idea is that if you are wanting to start something and you know people are definitely carrying, but you don’t know who or how many is the deterrent.
I am not here to convince you.
“I don’t know if someone around me has a gun” doesn’t seem to be much of a deterrent so far since that’s the status quo regardless of the legality.
Let me start by saying I appreciate this hasn’t devolved and does seem to be a civil discussion.
The idea is most citizens are law abiding and if it is illegal to conceal carry or barred by the establishment to carry then only three types of people would be a threat to someone who intends to cause violence. First a law enforcement officer, second another person intended to break the law with a weapon and last would be an individual with the attitude’rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6’. The possibility of those types being in the vicinity is much lower than when everyone can be capable of self defense with a firearm.
There are many more nuances involved: does the person carrying have training? Can the person carrying be more of a danger than the danger their presence prevents? Is the criminal logical/smart enough to know and understand that there is a risk of an armed populace when they enact their crimes? And many more variables that can be put into play that aren’t part of this discussion.
Thanks for reading.
I can understand your points here, but I still don’t understand, and maybe it’s just me, how not knowing who around has a gun makes everyone safer than knowing that you have armed people around in case there’s a problem.
Like someone else said, everyone they know conceals as a deterrent from mugging. I’m no mugger, but I know I’d be a lot less likely to mug someone I saw was carrying a gun.
I’d like to see some actual hard data that having legal concealed weapons actually makes people safer than having them out in the open.
I’d be a lot less likely to mug someone I saw was carrying
Sure, but if you were a mass shooter you’d take out the guy with a holster on his hip first.
I agree. Nukes only work as a deterrent (for example) because the countries that have them “open carry” them. A concealed-program nuke is only good for after the fact revenge on a country that attacks you or an ally/neighbor. Just like a gun.
The study used FBI annual cross-sectional time-series county crime data for all 3,054 U.S. counties from 1977 to 1992. Although many recent crime studies have used proxies for deterrence, such as police expenditures or general levels of imprisonment, this study used arrest rates by type of crime, and also, for a subset of data, conviction rates and sentence lengths by type of crime. The most conservative estimates show that the adoption of “shall issue” right-to-carry firearm laws reduced murders by 8 percent, rapes by 5 percent, aggravated assault by 7 percent, and robbery by 3 percent. Although the initial drop in crime was often small, the longer the law was in effect, the larger the drop in crime over time. The benefits of concealed handguns were not limited to those who used a handgun in self- defense. By virtue of the fact that handguns were concealed, criminals were unable to tell whether a potential victim was equipped to strike back, thus making it less attractive for criminals to commit crimes when they came into direct contact with victims. An additional woman carrying a concealed handgun reduced the murder rate for women by approximately three to four times more than an additional man carrying a concealed handgun reduced the murder rate for men. Further, the study found that the increased use of guns in heated traffic disputes and the increased number of accidental handgun deaths was insignificant compared to the lives saved from violent crime that was prevented.
I already gave you my issue with this link you gave and its author. Why do you think pasting it a second time will change what I said?
Two different responses, for two different questions you had asked.
Okay, and your response to my issues with what you have provided are what? Because, again, that doesn’t actually show me the paper, and the author has used questionable figures and methodology in the past.
thus making it less attractive for criminals to commit crimes when they came into direct contact with victims.
Unless they have a gun themselves, of course.
You have a fundamental misunderstanding. I don’t carry to deter anyone, I carry because I’m physically disabled and humans are animals.
if someone sees your gun, they can take it with a surprise rock to the head attack.
also if a decent percentage concealed carry, then crazy people will maybe consider that before doing crazy things?
(i don’t agree with that just playing devils advocate)(i don’t agree with that just playing devils advocate)
Why? It’s unnecessary.
because they were asking a question
Lol showing you’re armed makes you a target. And someone will take it from your hip. There’s videos of people grabbing the gun and just running, so no. You’re absolutely wrong here. A lot of idiots are up voting you too, which is sad.
There’s videos of people grabbing the gun and just running
Finally a claim of some evidence.
Please show me one of these videos.
Are you being dense about this or just stupid all around? It’s not hard to Google.
Open carry makes you the main target - https://youtu.be/wPEaX4HwWyc?si=WT0yFXgsjf6dHICe
Stolen right off guy in checkout - https://youtube.com/shorts/T15ikZkbkbU?si=iN5RNc-7b1HqwCBs
There’s plenty more, those aren’t even the one I remember
Edit: found the one I remember specifically - https://youtube.com/shorts/GwtrTJvD5tc?si=f3WNVtA6-4p8tUPS
Anything else?
I was happy to review the evidence someone else gave me, but I am not going to bother with someone who just insults me right out of the gate when I have done my best to be as cordial as I can be. I do not reward Reddit style behavior. It is unlikely I will respond to you again.
oh no, not that. i don’t care to speak to someone who can’t do a simple google search to find what they need. you’re completely useless, then try to put your insecurities onto others to do your work for you. i provided the evidence, now stfu about it.
Story incoming…
When I was about 12 my family, a long with my uncle, went on a camping trip in Gorman California. The sun had just gone down and we had a fire and we’re listening to the radio. My mom was in the trailer with my other siblings and my dad, uncle and I were heating up hot dogs by the fire.
These 2 men walk up to our fire out of the dark and sit down and start being super belligerent and creepy. They have knives and who the hell else knows what. They demand beer and hotdogs. My dad, asks them to leave after giving them both a beer and dog. They don’t and keep getting more aggressive. They start talking about things like coming in to the trailer and what what else they can have.
My uncle starts to get brave and tell them to get the fuck out. They don’t like that and become more aggressive and get out their seats to hurt him. MY Dad tells them he has more to drink in the trailer. He walks into the trailer and walks back out with 2 hand guns and points them at they guys and tells them to get the fuck out or die. I’d like to say it felt heroic seeing him do this, but I was so freaking scared out of my mind. The men leave and you can hear their motorcycles start up and they drive away.
Earlier that day my uncle kept making fun of my dad for being his guns. And telling him he doesn’t need them. In the end, we absolutely did need them and it may have even saved our lives at most.
I don’t have a moral of the story here. Just a story. I don’t carry in public. I’m not even a huge gun guy. But I have one. And it goes with me camping.
It doesn’t make sense to do all this at once: hate cops, hate guns, and be unable to defend yourself.
That’s just asking to be taken advantage of by those with more power than you. Expecting people to do the right thing is an innocent and childish view of the world.
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Good story, thanks for sharing.
But the fact of the matter is that, in situations like this, guns are really only needed because everyone else could have guns. There’s a perpetual threat of gun violence. That’s what makes the US such an unsafe country for kids and adults alike. People in other developed countries don’t have to think this way when they go camping and I’m very jealous of that.
I never understood why the Americans have to carry a weapon at all. I can understand (to some degree) to want to own a weapon (to defend your home from other people with guns, going hunting, shooting cans, etc. pp), but to carry it outside while doing normal things like shopping, dinning, watching a movie?
For robbers, rapists, kidnappers etc. They show up while doing “normal things” …so.
Some carry while camping, on road trips, etc. Situations where you’re likely to be alone and emergency services would take a long time to respond.
There’s also plenty of paranoid or insecure people.
Americans believe they live in a post-apocalypse where a shootout could start at any moment.
Self-fulfilling prophecy.
Congratulations! You are privileged enough to believe that everyone lives in a modern day utopia in which nothing bad can ever happen to them so why would anyone else feel the need to protect themselves.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/21/europe/prague-university-shooting-intl/index.html
https://apnews.com/article/london-new-years-eve-boy-stabbed-6400e7e3b1fa0e7d7d2ab3669c48278c
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/four-children-mom-found-dead-christmas-day-france-rcna131184
Because you can’t rely on cops to protect you and can’t expect regular people to forego violence if they believe it will get them what they want.
Statistically, guns don’t stop crimes, they just make them worse. The “good guy with a gun vs bad guy with a gun” is nothing but a fantasy.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/251894/number-of-justifiable-homicides-in-the-us/
In 2022, there were literally only 463 justifiable homicides in the US. And that’s with all weapons, not just firearms.
Gun carriers are not stopping crimes, they’re just playing power fantasies.
Note that only covers homicides, the criminal died. Guns can save people from going that far as well. Everything from yelling, “Don’t come here, I have a gun,” to showing it, to firing and wounding or missing the criminal isn’t in that statistic. One FBI statistic a few years ago put it around 2-4 million instances of defensive uses of guns that year.
Statistically you’ll never be mugged, raped, or murdered, so why do anything to prevent any of them?
It’s really a very very small minority of Americans who are like that at all.
The worst part is that they leave their guns in their cars and then they get stolen and used in murders and robberies. The people who conceal carry are usually not the people you want doing it anyway.
So they blocked the block blocking the Glock?
Glockblockers.
Imagine, if you will, a law that restricted your right to free speech on any public property, or on any private property that didn’t affirmatively give you permission. Or religion. Or any other right. Sure, you have the right to free speech, but only in your own home, and not even online unless your ISP specifically says it’s okay, and not by phone unless the phone company gives permission. You okay with that? If not, why would you be okay with this?
The 2nd amendment makes exactly zero references to a right to carry a concealed firearm. That instead has been read into that text by the fruitcake majority on the USSC.
