This isn’t a meme.
Hate to break it to you, but a meme, by definition, is political propaganda.
Yes, all those images you’ve been laughing at these years were part of a political project. They looove hiding in plain sight.
Ah yes the widespread political message that was “me and the boys out at 3am looking for beans”
How could we possibly have missed those political overtones.
Dude you must be on some extremely powerful drugs if you think all memes are political propaganda.
Can you explain?
tHiS iSn’T a mEmE
I’m glad you agree
Oh Jesus, it’s the same annoying guy that posts the stupid Dale Earnhardt “memes”.
This guy would upload the IRS tax handbook as a meme if he could
Do you have a high res version of this not-meme?
The bottom picture isn’t accurate, I live on a reservation that isn’t listed.
If there’s one mistake I notice immediately there’s definitely more.
Additionally, most of Oklahoma is still various reservation lands. That was a recent court ruling, so I suspect this is a few years old.
My favorite part is not being able to read the font whatsoever.
Pretty sure this is saved from an attachment from a forwarded email of a scan of a photo copy of a mimeograph.
Im gonna fax this to my group chat
Unironcally it looks like a picture from a fifth grade social studies book
Definelty at the very least a copy of a printout of an email attachment that was scanned from a fax…
That’s ok, this map of native American lands is definitely outdated. The Haudenosaunee (Iroquois) lands are much smaller than it should be. As that’s the only tribal name I can actually read, I imagine it’s a similar story for the other tribes.
So… Average history?
Yeah, you can do the same for Russia, China, most European countries. Basically the entirety of Africa.
China/Russia/Europe are largely inhabited by people whose ancestry traces back 1000s of years to the same region. That’s very different from North America, where most natives where killed (either through disease or “policy”).
That’s not to excuse their past behaviour (Europeans started the genocide in North America), but it’s still very different.
Yup. That’s the biggest difference. My ancestors trace back to Beringia (what is now the Bering Strait) but my national leader is an 80 year old European American.
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Except for the Han Chinese with the Uyghurs and the Tibetans and the Mongolians.
I suppose you could even add their own people for the Chinese and the Russians when they were starved during the communist times.
How’s the genocide of a whole continent “average history”? The magnitude of destruction in the Americas is not common and this downplay of a continent-wide genocide is annoying.
Because there are other examples of continent wide genocide.
Humans are the fucking worst and it isn’t unique to one area
because there are other examples
…ok? I guess I don’t get why there needs to be any comparison, since it inevitably ends up sounding like “oh, well this one wasn’t as bad as that one. Happens all the time.”
I’m suggesting that across history IS common.
I’m not celebrating it.
Other examples existing does not change that it is historically unprecedented and far from the norm. And its just a really strange and pointless thing to point.
Person A: “my dad died in a car bomb” Person B: “ehh, average family death” A: “uhh what?” B: "well, there are other examples of people dying in car bombs, dude! "
The root comment was “average history”. I replied to someone suggesting it wasnt, and disagreed with them.
To use your analogy,
"My dad died of old age.
What? That’s insane no one dies of that.
No, it’s pretty normal"
You’re correcting me saying that expelling native populations time and time again from every land they go to, then genociding their entire population to the point of near extinction, using the most horrific methods and over centuries, is more akin to dying of old age than dying by a bomb?
Please read that again and confirm to me that’s what you’re saying, because it sounds absolutely ridiculous. This scale and this horror are not common historical occurrence.
That’s correct, humans have used the cutting edge methods to drive out and destroy native populations in the name of expansion, for thousands of years.
I’m not celebrating it.
I am sorry to restate this again, but the expulsion, genocide on the scale (both in size and horror) is historically unprecedented. You’re going to have to prove this to me if you think it’s a common occurrence instead of continuing to repeat it.
And for the record, no one here is talking about small scale expulsion. I am talking about expulsion AND genocide on the same scale and horror committed here. Show me that it is a common occurrence and I will concede.
The Mongols genocided two continents and a sub continent.
Did they? I was under the impression they came in, did a conquer, and basically left with the conquered understanding that the horde’d be back for their tribute.
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So… Average history?
No
Never forget? In some states it’s downright illegal to teach kids that complex, sophisticated and civilized societies existed here before white people showed up.
I’ve been reading 1491 by Charles C Mann and telling my 14yo a lot of what I’ve been learning, it’s a fascinating book. We live in the rural southern Appalachians and I know for damn sure those teachers aren’t including nuance with their history.
But you and I did NOT. I see a lot of people online who can’t make the distinction.
EDIT: Thanks for replies, all. Some good conversation here
Of course I’m gonna assume good faith from you here, but I feel like some people boil down issues like this to “well I mean I didn’t do it so stop complaining”, and that’s wildly reductive and irresponsible at minimum.
Arguing the situation in this way sidesteps the uncomfortable and inconvenient reality that the United States is yet still occupying native land, whether it be Hawai’i, Alaska, or the contiguous territories. Yes it’s entirely possible that mine or your ancestors didn’t perpetuate these things as immigration is and has always been ongoing, but the point everyone misses is that we are still here.
I couldn’t possibly imagine belittling natives for acknowledging the fact that their land was taken from them by force. Some real colonialist shit.
I feel you, and also acknowledge it is a hairy subject on a grand scale.
I also try to frame the issue in the actual, real moment. I try my damndest to do as little harm as humanly possible to anyone. Should I be forced to give money to someone affected? Land? Should I be punished?
Who benefits? A grandson of someone displaced? A great great grandson? Whole family trees? How do you make shit like this right after so much time?
Mostly, I’m trying to encourage thought and discussion. Fundamentally, I think people should be judged on their own merits and actions, not their lineage.
That will always be an issue until the US government actually has real communication and cooperation with native people.
I don’t necessarily think that citizens of occupied land are automatically responsible for the past actions of a government (not to say that’s what you implied), but said government that committed the atrocities is. As far as the other part of the equation, I suppose the beneficiaries should be determined by the natives themselves.
I like that approach. It’s in line with what Amnesty International is proposing for Isreal and Palestine
The way I understand it is that even if we omit any ancestral blame for what happened, the Native Americans are still dealing with the impact while European descendants benefit from it. It’s kind of like if I went to school with a very bright kid that was horribly abused and kicked out into the streets, so they performed poorly and dropped out, allowing me to get into the best college possible and have a great career. Why should I have any compassion for this kid if I didn’t abuse them myself? Why would I help them get housed and into college? Why would I even acknowledge that they were abused and forced out of their home? I’m one that earned it by working hard to get into college and graduate.
This omits the possibility that this kid might have outperformed me and taken the college spot, leaving me to be in a worse off situation.
Not 1000% on board with your analogy, but I understand and fully agree lol.
I just wish most people had the empathy and mental capacity to understand the intricacies of this stuff. It’s a hell of a lot easier to just say “uH wOw I ain’t payin reparations for no dang indians” than it is to actually think for a minute about and acknowledge the real history of where you live
How far back in time are we going to enact justice? My 36x Great uncle Olaf never got his comeuppance (/s a little)
we are still here
Yes, people don’t leave occupied land. It’s never happened historically and certainly won’t happen now, that’s the point of occupation. People can acknowledge what happened but in practical terms thinking that somehow all native land will be returned is just naive.
Oh well of course, at this point in time it’s been made extremely clear that natives will be getting absolutely no land back, even unoccupied land in the plains for example. There’s no major figures in government even remotely speaking on this stuff in a substantial way, so it may as well never happen. Fucked up stuff on top of all the other fucked up stuff.
And also to be fair, implying that most anyone here believes that all land should be returned is pretty naive in and of itself - there are absolutely more options than ALL OF THE LAND and NONE OF THE LAND
So by that logic, the Turks should give Constantinople back to the Romans?
False equivalence, that’s an entirely different historical context. Things can apply to one situation and not another
Explain. How is it a false equivalent? Romans controlled the city / region for over a thousand years and were later conqured, and their land stolen, to use the vernacular of this thread.
You’re oversimplifying in order to compare the two. Wildly different historical contexts with entirely unrelated events. Distilling both down to “area conquered” just so you can make a point is reductive.
Beyond that though, why does it matter honestly? Does the fact that a city was conquered in the 1400s invalidate anything mentioned so far?
Oversimplifing an empire being overthrown. Seems legit.
Yes.
If you had made it past the first sentence you’d see how legit it is.
Fair point, but not really a meme.
This is probably the third meme in two days where the top comment says it’s not a meme.
Because they are not a meme
The genocide is still ongoing, they just don’t tell you about it. In Canada cops will flat out murder or disappear them right off the streets.
I don’t doubt this at all, but any resources on this?
Here’s what I know of.
Between 2012 and 2016, the “Starlight tours” section of the Saskatoon Police Service’s English Wikipedia article was deleted several times. An internal investigation revealed that two of the edits originated from a computer within the police service
Remember to reference primary sources for this reason!
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I’m curious too
Canada too
For those interested, native-land.ca is a collective project to map the ancestral territories of Indigenous peoples.
Very cool, thanks! Link for those too lazy to type.
Meanwhile the UK 1707-1914:
Highly recommend reading the Red Deal, which is written by Indigenous socialists on what they think decolonisation should entail.
https://therednation.org/about-maisha/
Also keep in mind that every Indigenous community has different views on colonialism and the land and sovereignty issue. Some really just want to be left alone on their historical territory, others actively want to work with non-Indigenous people living on and around their ancestral land, and everything in between with tons of nuance. There is no singular “Indigenous attitide” on this though there does tend to be similar schools of thought. The most important thing in decolonization is to listen to all of them and respect their wishes.
Are there any good resources to learn more about the vast tribes the North American continent was home to? I’ve always felt ignorant to the rich history and connection with the Earth that the tribes held and passed down.
Not sure about the accuracy of the top map, but it looks like that format could be a great educational opportunity.
On a lighthearted note, if you’re from the bay, give Café Ohlone a visit! I had the pleasure of meeting the two head chefs at an event where they cooked for the audience. They showed how candy cap mushrooms, acorn flour, and a duck egg could be incorporated into a brownie mix. I can’t speak for the actual restaurant, but it was delicious what they made :)
Unfortunately, not really for the majority of tribes. What we so know is that by the time Europeans had made real efforts to expand westward in North America, The Great Dying had already killed 75-90% of the native population.
Basically, North America had already endured around 200 years of civilization and population collapse starting in 1450. So even what the tribes know about themselves has to be viewed in the perspective of a people who had just lost 90% of their population in a few generations.
Whoa, do you have a source on that? That’s an incredible piece of context
Here is a decent explanation.
People forget that from the time Christopher Columbus arrived to when Europeans began expanding past the Appalachia is a span of 300 years. That’s longer than we’ve been in a country.
American expansion would not have been possible without hundreds of years of what is basically a Continent wide apocalypse. Culture just doesn’t survive that level of sustained trauma unchanged.
Does Lemmy also hug sites to death?
The Canary Effect is an amazing documentary about the genocide of Indigenous peoples in North America. It is free on YT. It was where I first learned how brutal the reality was and how devastating to the population. It also shows how it meets the UN definition of genocide. Amazing how we are raised in the US and this is not only ignored in history class, but is instead framed as Indigenous people living happily in Spanish missions and having Thanksgiving with pilgrims.
If you get a chance to read about John Trudell, he had a fascinating life. He was the spokesman for the American Indian Movement when they occupied Alcatraz in protest of the US breaking their land treaty. The government did not stop terrorizing him and his family after that. There’s also an amazing documentary about him but it’s been a long time since I’ve seen it. I think it may just be called “John Trudell.”
Both of these will make you walk away angry though.
No, the genocide is still ongoing, it didn’t happen it is still happening.
For fucks sake… 1st off, whether or not this qualifies as a “meme”, it doesn’t fit the accepted norm of what most people expect to see when they click on “memes”
Secondly, and this may sting a little, but peace as we know it is a relatively new thing in world history. I’ve seen a multitude of other comments here proclaiming all those other genocides were okay because they were thousands of years ago. It’s that “in my lifetime” mentality that just fucking grinds my gears. Through thousands of years of history, one genocide is cherry picked and held up as the worst ever, and the citizens who"benefitted" from it are supposed to pick up the tab? My ancestors weren’t Spanish or English, and my family has been here for about 130 years having come from Germany in 1890. How much of the tab am I supposed to pick up?
Fact of the matter is, the only constant in human history is war. We’re in a (relatively) peaceful era now, and that’s taking into account Ukraine/Russia, Israel/Palestine, and probably another 20 or 30 wars I’m not up to speed on because I’m American and our media doesn’t seem to actually inform us on world events from countries we don’t buy shit from.
Human history is not really a constant war, but that is how Americans have been taught history: as a sequence of wars.
What’s relatively new are the concept of mass conscription, economic warfare, and total war. The ability to enact war and destruction on a global and constant level is new. The brief cessations in conflict aren’t peace, you’re right, but it is also a newer concept that we are constantly in a forever war.
While I mostly agree, I never said constant war, but where I will disagree in a sense is, the prospect of total annihilation would have been a factor millennia ago had the technology been there. Pick your era, the Romans, the various Chinese dynasties, the English, etc… if they had the means, they would have likely used it, having zero regard for the impact it would have later, mostly due to a poor understanding of the technology. I do believe, at least between “the big three”, meaning the US, Russia and China, nuclear war is an extremely potent deterrent to all out war. It’s the “kids who want to be in the club” that worry me, everyone from NK to Israel. It sucks, but the atomic cat is out of the bag in a world we’re all forced to live in, and the polarization of politics and other bullshit only work to drive that wedge deeper and push us closer to… bad shit.
Sure. I get what you mean: greek antiquity has records on the decision to exterminate an entire island of people. The capacity is absolutely there.
But I think a better perspective here is human history is one full of technological and social advances that resolve and prevent conflict. Even, yes, that unbagged atomic cat. It can be power for civilian use or it can be a bomb to burn their shadows into the concrete. War is when the actual prize of humanity: civility, breaks down.
I agree with your points, and yes it’s a better perspective, however, that’s not the world we’re living in. There are some who are hell bent on wiping out continents of people due to any number of reasons ranging from beliefs to the exploitation of natural resources merely for financial gain. I really wish we did live in a world where the word “nuclear” invoked thoughts of clean(er), abundant and cheaper energy vs it invoking dread at the prospect of total annihilation.
I’ve seen a multitude of other comments here proclaiming all those other genocides were okay because they were thousands of years ago.
Where did anyone say it was okay because it was longer ago? Please point me to it, because I read the entire thread and did not see this once.
The genocide of native new worlders is historically unprecedented and that is fact. I highly doubt that genocides on the same scale, magnitude and horror are commonplace throughout history. I would urge you to support your claim with evidence or examples if you are going to repeat it, otherwise it is entirely baseless.
How much of the tab am I supposed to pick up?
However much it takes to bring up the status of the natives to what it would have been had they not been massacred and expelled, and undo the propping up of Western civilization on their backs. If you’d like more specific examples, I’d be glad to give them to you. Just ask.
We’re in a (relatively) peaceful era now
Source? That’s a pretty big claim.
As I’m too stupid and it’s to early for me to do these inline…
Your 1st point, here’s one, had to scroll about 1/8 down the page for. Granted it doesn’t explicitly say it was “okay”, the point stands:
"China/Russia/Europe are largely inhabited by people whose ancestry traces back 1000s of years to the same region. That’s very different from North America, where most natives where killed (either through disease or “policy”).
That’s not to excuse their past behaviour (Europeans started the genocide in North America), but it’s still very different."
As you also wanted to be pointed to a source for genocides on the same or larger scale throughout history, allow me to search Wikipedia for you:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_genocides
As to point 3, who exactly determines who is responsible and who will benefit from this paln to raise up America’s indigenous population to their proper station? Are 1st generation immigrants from Ghana going to be required to pay up? How about Natives who’s ancestry dates back to a tribe that exterminated another tribe? Surely that should also qualify as genocide?
And as to point 4, we, in the west, as I did point out I was American, are in a (relatively) peaceful time, which implies that throughout history it has not been, but I guess I need to spell it out for some people.
At the end of the day, you’re not looking to be enlightened or to learn anything, your post was directed to completely discount my points, or to “troll” I will admit I was getting heated reading some of the off the wall bullshit I was seeing, but superlatives aside, I stand by everything I’ve posted. I apologize if you TRULY didn’t know about other genocides, or if your worldview has jaded you to the point where you don’t initially see posts that clearly illustrate what I said, at least in the abstract, and you took the time to go back and reread them and allow it to sink in.
Feel free to pick apart this post, too. Nothing is more entertaining in a meme thread than for 2 idiots, myself included, to argue about genocide.🙂
Your first quotation is not about someone excusing a genocide because it happened a long time ago. They are saying that unlike the US, the current inhabitants in those regions can be traced back to the inhabitants thousands of years ago. Which means there wasn’t a major genocide or displacement of people. I am not endorsing this statement btw, I don’t know enough to confirm it. But it is not a condonation of genocide. It is in fact remarking that a genocide similar to what happened in North America did not happen in those other regions.
As you also wanted to be pointed to a source for genocides on the same or larger scale throughout history
You provided me a list of genocides on Wikipedia. None of them match the genocide against native Americans. Your link proves my point.
I guess I need to spell it out for some
I didn’t ask you to paraphrase or restate your point. I asked you to prove it or provide evidence. But I never expected you to be able to anyways, so don’t worry about it.
Ah, the internet…
The phrase “That’s not to excuse their past behaviour (Europeans started the genocide in North America), but it’s still very different” effectively translates to “Even though this happened, this is worse”.
If you bothered to look at that list, you’ll note the mention of the California Genocide of 1846. Reported casualties between 9,492 and 16,094, with other estimates as high as 120,000. Absolutely fucking horrible and a black mark on American history indeed. However, there are 31 other genocides on that list that are higher in number, with three of those even happening prior to California-
Dzungam 1755, 480,000-600,000 Taino 1492, 68,000-968,000 Albigensian 1209, 200,000-1,000,000
I guess it depends on how you define “genocide”, but since Wikipedia is generally using the accepted definition, I feel pretty safe in going with what they say.
And I did lay out proof, you’re just too caught up in whatever ideology to see it. Feel free to rebut, down vote, cry or whatever makes you feel better, but my point was the world is a horrible place, and terrible things happen to all kinds of groups of people. The “meme” that started all this IS a cherry picked reference to people who were wronged (I’m not disputing they were wronged, but so were… insert any other group of people here). Throughout history, most civilizations are founded on the conquering of another. As horrible as that is, it’s a fact. And after the fact, many of the remaining conqured are treated horribly. Also a fact.
Lay out some real numbers, cite an authoritative source (sources) and then we can talk. Until then, I hope the best for you and really wish we could get past this bickering bullshit. Life is too short, and trying to pin the sins of one’s father on the current generation isn’t solving shit. Work toward bettering peoples lives without having to exact revenge from people who didn’t have fuck all to do with it.
Oh, I stand corrected. A link to a Google doc. Should probably submit that to the Wikipedia article I linked as clearly thier information is flawed. You win an internet today.
It’s a link to a specific page of the book “American Holocaust: The Conquest of the New World” By David Sannard. It’s not a Google doc.
Here is an interactive map that shows current ongoing conflicts around the world.
