Summary
Tipping in America has expanded into unexpected areas, with 72% of Americans saying it is expected in more places than five years ago, according to Pew Research.
While tipping can release feel-good neurotransmitters, a Bankrate survey found two-thirds of Americans now view it negatively, and one-third feel it’s “out of control.”
Critics highlight issues like social pressure and wage inequality, while businesses attempting no-tipping models, like a New York wine bar, have struggled to sustain them.
Many believe tipping culture has become excessive, with calls for reform growing.
If your business can’t survive without my tips, you don’t have a viable business.
But also, if you can’t survive without my tips, you’re probably working in the American service sector.
I don’t tip businesses, I tip people. Some of those people own the business.
If you underpay people to rely on tips, you’re just playing the game on a harder level.
I generally agree with you, but what is your response to businesses like those mentioned in the article that tried a no-tip model and could not sustain it?
I think that tipping models are starting to emulate app microtransaction models - they know that a majority of people are not going to tip, or will round their total up to the nearest dollar or something. It’s the person that sees the option to tip and decides to throw an extra $20 just because that they’re after. If they instead raise the prices to make it average out, the majority of people that normally would not be tipping go somewhere that’s cheaper (because they do tips), and the few people that would pay extra no longer have the option to.
To tie back to the microtransaction analogy - the games that bring in money are the free ones where you can pay to get stuff. Most people pay very little or nothing, but a small percentage throws tons of cash into the game. If you were to take the amount of money brought in by these whales over the life of a game, divide it among all people that played it, and charged that much for the game, it wouldn’t profit nearly as much, because none of those people want to pay the $5, and the people that were spending hundreds can only buy the game once, if that.
what is your response to businesses like those mentioned in the article that tried a no-tip model and could not sustain it?
That they don’t have a viable business.
Probably because of all the other businesses competing by not paying their employees a fair salary
I mean, yeah. Obviously. But to the other businesses or potential business owners that want to try a tipless model, that see these businesses failing, that’s not very encouraging or helping to figure out what the underlying issue is. If people are trying to do a good thing but can’t quite figure out how to make it work, should we just say, “guess you’re not very good at this” and continue giving business to the places asking for tips, or should we try to look into what’s going on?
What you do is you legally mandate a minimum wage, require businesses to respect that or else get shut down by the labor board, and then if you still can’t make a profit then yeah, sucks. Should have planned better.
The underlying issue is that companies are allowed and encouraged to pay well below the minimum wage because tips make up the difference. This was a stupid idea from the very beginning, and was born shortly after the Civil War when the FLSA ruled that companies could do this so that they didn’t have to pay newly-freed slaves a fair wage. Remove that and you remove the problem. American tip/gratuity law spits directly in the face of our own fair labor standards.
The problem you’re describing comes from trying to do this piecemeal and let the free market push the demand, but the free market isn’t going to do that when cheaper options are available. Even if those cheaper options are built on exploitation. So trying to eliminate tips in your restaurant when the restaurant next door is still on tipped wages is asking for disaster. But if everyone were forced to change at the same time due to change in legislation then you don’t have this problem.
The price of eating out at restaurants will increase, but of course it will, you aren’t going to dodge that no matter how we address this problem.
Thank you for giving a thought out response to my question. I wholeheartedly agree that tip culture, as it is, is garbage.
I think being able to tip is very appropriate in certain scenarios, like at a bar where the bartender is very friendly and charismatic (and is bringing in repeat customers) they should be able to receive tips. But I guess at the same time,I actually changed my mindset halfway writing this comment. No; I, the customer, should not be paying the bartender more for giving me a more pleasant experience than the bartender next door. The bar owner should be reinvesting the additional profits brought in by the better bartender into said bartender’s salary and increase their wage that way. Tipping the better bartender gives them a raise at no cost to the establishment, which is ok for the bartender, great for the bar, bad for the consumer.
I’m not sure what you think my stance is or what point you’re trying to make.
I don’t think you understand the competitive pressure of every other restaurant not raising their menu prices 20% alongside you. Do you think that a business isn’t viable if they can’t absorb a 20% labor increase without raising prices?
I suspect you are not a reliable or competent business analyst.
I don’t think you understand my stance on the issue. Why would you assume that I think a restaurant should stop accepting tips while everyone else does, and also not raise their prices? You are making a lot of assumptions about what I think.
You are combining the two distinct possibilities I referenced as consequences for a restaurant that stops accepting tips:
-
Raise menu prices, lose business to competitors
-
Do not raise prices, fail by not covering expenses
Either way, it’s not sustainable to voluntarily go tipless, which is why those who tried, revert. You’re the one that said that made them unviable. Did you mean to say something else?
I said that a business which cannot survive without tips is not viable. I did not comment on what other changes might be required.
Then the vast majority of restaurants are not viable. Again, your business analysis is not viable. An opinion that ignores fundamental aspects of the trade space isn’t worth the cost to light the pixels to display it.
-
The problem with one place going tip-less, is that they’re still competing with tipped places.
Going tip-less inherently means the prices need to go up. If the average tip is 20%, you need to raise prices at least that much, to match what your people got from tips. So if you have a restaurant with menu prices 20-30% higher than others, you’d expect to loose business to competitors. If every restaurant in the area had to raise menu prices 20-30% with you, that wouldn’t happen.
I have a dine-in movie theater near me. Which I grant, is different than a standard restaurant. This last year they changed their POS system, and removed from the bill an automatic 18% gratuity they used to have. Something like a month later, they added it back. Because everyone complained. Customers, and servers alike.
If a single restaurant really wants to go “tip-less”, that’s the way to do it. Automatically add a minimum tip to every bill.
I don’t understand what’s the difference between a 10$ + 2$ tip burger or a 12$ burger, why is the 10$ one more competitive?
Mathematically, in then end, there isn’t a difference.
The difference is in reality vs expectation.
People have the expectation of one price on the menu and a 20% higher final total. This is an unconscious habit built over a lifetime of it always working that way. So when they go online to see the menu of various places, they’ll see the tip-less restaurant has having higher prices. Even if they know it is tip-less, they’ll still unconsciously call it more expensive anyway. So they’ll go to the other restaurant that looks just as nice, but has cheaper prices on the menu.It’s similar to why all stores, corporations, and business fight against having to include taxes and fees in advertised prices. They want to bring people in with the lowest possible price, then hit them with the full cost only at the last moment, when they’re least likely to back out.
That’s understandable but weird, maybe it’s because I’m poor but I always check final price I don’t care about the menu price because there is always service tax, bad weather tax, small order tax, etc.
No response, they didn’t explain what challenges they encountered.
Fuck all tipping. Fuck unclear prices. Fuck variable service.
Put clear prices. Expect consistent service. Pay fair wages.
If it’s about low pay. Why not expect businesses to pay fair liveable wages like every other industry?
If it’s about quality of service. Why do you not expect good service every time? Why do you not also tip your doctor for good service or the construction workers who ensured the roads are good for you to use?
Idiotic inconsistencies and morons everywhere defending it. Only in recent years are people finally taking notice, but 10 years ago oh I’m an asshole for suggesting tipping should be banned in favor of consistency, clear prices, and fair wages.
A lot of tipped workers defend it because waiters can make good money for their qualifications, but what they don’t understand is that they should be making that amount of money without requiring tips.
The problem is that when a restaurant increases prices, they don’t share the extra income with the staff.
Hell, Subway has doubled the prices in like 3 years AND started asking for tips for the staff.
I mean, if you’re the asshole for suggesting it, then I’m right there being an asshole with you. I still tip, because I want the people who serve me to be able to take care of themselves, but ideally, that shouldn’t be my fucking responsibility. It should be their employer’s. It’s a fucking barbaric system that puts service workers’ ability to put food on the table in the hands of entitled Karens and reduces them to begging for a decent wage.
There’s a cider bar that opened in my town recently with a strict no-tipping policy, and holy shit, is it ever refreshing to not have to deal with that rigamarole.
If it were about quality of service, you would tip before receiving the service. The waiter doesn’t know how much you’re gonna tip, so their quality of service will never change.
That’s the weirdest argument ever. You tip on the basis of the quality of service. The server learns from feedback and training how to improve quality. It’s not a one and done situation, but a constant feedback and refinement.
Which is idiotic. At most other jobs, that is internal, impacts rewards like bonuses, and potential fireability. Just stupid to make it the customers problem.
It’s not that weird. Think of it like paying upfront for “the Cadillac service” where they treat you like a king versus someone else paying for the barebones service where they just do the bare minimum like at a car wash where you can buy different levels of a wash.
The only disconnect here is that tips are typically a percentage of your bill and you don’t necessarily know what that’ll be up-front but you could still commit to a specific percentage.
You were an asshole in good company.
Wow you’re the first American ever to think tipping is bad! Ten whole years ago? What a thot leader
What a peculiar line of attack. OP isn’t bragging about anything, they’re irritated that it’s taken at least a decade for a known problem to be addressed.
Being frustrated about a problem for a long time ≠ being into a thing before it was cool.
Was definitely not bragging or saying I’m the only one. I just distinctly remember some people who were very passionate about this attacking me and in some cases it destroyed our friendship or acquaintance since they judged me for it.
Never made sense to me. I told them I never refused to tip people. I wasn’t an asshole about it, but I certainly tried to avoid going to places that expected tipping.
I bought a couple of sweaters online today, and the order form asked for a tip.
No.
There’s an option to tip at the self check out at my grocery store. The fuck ám I tipping? It’s self check out. Am I tipping myself? Fuck these people
You’re just giving the large corporation a little walking around money, for their wonderful service, of profitably running a store! You’re so nice!
You’re tipping the kiosk that provided the service. I guess.
Great, can we get one that can scan things the first time? They can scan one thing maybe every 10 seconds.
Or maybe a more responsive OS, like something that’s not Windows.
Those payment services subtract their free from the money that is sent to the receiver.
Am I tipping myself?
Oh, I would be tipping generously at the self-service if I were tipping me through getting a discount.
maybe…
…not as generously but that sure would be a weird businesses model to allow people to choose a discount instead of choosing to pay more
I mean, I gets my self checkout discount whenever possible, provided it’s a big box store
I’m no longer tipping just because the stupid kiosk asks me to and making me feel guilty… If it’s not a normally tipped position such as server, bartender, or barista, I’m going to default to tapping no. It’s gotten ridiculous.
A vape shop I go to added it to their checkout kiosk. These people are literally just ringing up my purchase for me like any other retail cashier. I fucking hate it because they just stand there staring at me as I’m forced to decline the tip as if it’s reflective of their service and not the fact that it’s a bullshit system.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rm9sbG93ZXJz
Be careful, that didn’t work out well in X-Files.
Joking, of course.
I’ve heard claims that POS software now turns tipping on by default as part of the problem. I’d rather business owners just take care of their employees.
This is the dark side of Nudge theory. People need to practise refusing and it will stabilize. I tip handsomely when I want to and I refuse when I don’t. Sometimes I feel irrational guilt. I sit with the guilt for a while, then it’s gone.
Tip when you want as much as you want and no more. Refuse to listen to anyone who tells you that this is morally wrong.
Peace.
Fuck all tipping.
This. Make people quit their serving jobs because of the lack of tips. Create a demand for servers that forces employers to actually pay a living wage.
Every single time you tip you are perpetuating this system. Stop.
Nudge theory is bs
No other comment on your content, may be right or wrong.
And yet, people are presented more often with a meaningless request for tips. Sounds like Nudge to me. Plz bring evidence.
(Edited to remove superfluous irrelevant claim that might not be true, anyway. I regret the error.)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nudge_theory
Critique -> no evidence
I see that now. Thanks.
It looks like we have a plausible mechanism and no evidence yet. I wonder who is trying to gather more evidence. My money is on nudging having nontrivial effect, but I might sleep better if I knew it didn’t. Either way, people will try, and that’s where we are.
In that case, we fall back to the impact. All the more reason to advise folks to resist tipping unless they actually want to—to interpret the requests for tips in unexpected places as little more than an optimistic, misguided, or even accidental attempt to nudge. It’s the judgmental stories that people tell themselves that seem to tie them up in knots. Let others judge you for not tipping, because they were going to find some way to judge you, anyway.
We can practise resisting. I recommend trying.
Oh I’m a huge asshole tipper I dgaf.
I think there’s probably some mechanism backing it that is real, but right now it seems like the original nudge authors are just trying to defend their concept.
There’s a fun if books could kill podcast episode about nudge in particular which is where I learned. This is why I say I can’t comment on specific effectiveness in one instance or another, just that the nudge concept hasn’t been proven.
I will look for that episode. Thank you.
I maintain that Nudge not being proven doesn’t change much in this situation, because as long as enough of “the right” people believe it has enough of an effect, they’ll continue to try. All it takes is one well-placed person who makes the tipping screen enabled by default for a popular payment collection service and/or adds resistance to changing that setting. Dark patterns spread easily, even when they don’t work. Even when they result in blowback.
No no no. The burden of proof is on you to show that people are actually tipping more. The article said that people reported seeing prompts to tip in a lot more places and many people have said tipping is out of control but no where did it give any data to show that people are tipping more.
I personally don’t tip in any of the new tipping situations. I don’t tip at retail checkouts or restaurant takeouts. I still tip when it’s sit down service and the server is nice, attentive, and punctual (and more if they’re really friendly).
I have heard from the “tipping is out of control” crowd in my local restaurant discussion group and some of these folks have reacted so negatively that they swore to never tip again. I have no way of tracking these people to see if they keep their promise and I kind of doubt they would refuse to tip a really nice server at a sit down restaurant. However, I would be really surprised if these folks were actually tipping more than they used to before all the tipping prompts showed up on credit card terminals.
No no no. The burden of proof is on you to show that people are actually tipping more.
I see. So I can understand your original reply as something in the neighborhood of “I don’t believe that people are tipping more”? rather than a denial of Nudge theory?
Indeed, I don’t have evidence. Let me withdraw any claim that people are tipping more, not only because I can’t support it with data, but also because that’s irrelevant to my point.
Nudge Theory is about nudging people by changing the choice of least resistance. The dark side of that is presenting people with an option to tip in a situation where they can be judged for refusing. Whether they actually tip more or not, this is literally taxing on the nervous system and is just another way of using bugs in the human brain against humans. It is presenting another resentment-stirring obstacle in their path.
In addition, and somewhat beside the point, I’d be shocked if people weren’t actually tipping in those situations. Worse, and more troubling, I’d be shocked if they weren’t consequently tipping less to wait staff who truly need it and were being tipped more before this trend started happening. I have no evidence, but I see a clear and plausible mechanism.
That’s it.
Two different people
I’m the one who said nudge theory is bs because studies show the theory isn’t valid.
The other person, who was right, points out that you can’t use unrelated circumstantial data to back up your point
Serves me right for replying before I was entirely awake. I didn’t notice that that wasn’t you.
at tobacco shop
POS: add a tip?
…for what, death?
The other day I had a cashier say just “Do you want to round up?” without specifying any particular reason.
Usually when I’ve been asked, they’ll say it’s for charity or whatever… but not this place.
Do you want to just give us a little bit of extra money while you’re here?
Being overwhelmed with tip prompts has broken my tipping guilt. I feel like half the time people work don’t get or see those tips.
Sit down restaurants absolutely. Delivery yeah.
Pick up nah, you walk something 2 feet to me nah. Fuck tipping culture, pay your people right and charge accordingly don’t keep tacking on shit, tip charge, service charge, every other fucking sneak at the bill only charge now a days.
I was at a sit down recently where the lowest tip selectable without entering a dollar amount was 18%. 10% used to be the standard for competent service, 15%-20% for outstanding service. Now the quality of service is worse because they’re underataffed, and they expect me to tip more?? Get real.
The lowest “suggested” option has crept up to 20% in many places. A 15% tip is already adjusted for inflation. Now you want 20?
My take on tipping: If I can’t get the product without further employee assistance, I’m not tipping. Take a sandwich shop, for example. You’re not going to let me behind the counter to assemble my sandwich, so I’m not going to tip you for doing it for me because I can’t get the sandwich otherwise.
My only exception to this is a bar because I’m usually there for more than 1 drink, and it’s nice not to be the last one to get served when it gets crowded.
I’m confused. At a sit down restaurant you can’t just walk into the kitchen and make your meal, yet that is a standard place to tip.
I would absolutely tip at a sit-down place. But not if I were ordering take out from the same place.
Don’t forget to tip your landlord!
Other than the idiotic healthcare system and politics, tipping is probably my least favorite thing about the US. No-tipping works elsewhere, and it can work in the US.
Apparently there are now tip prompts on digital payment terminals for payday loans…
I’ve seen them on rent payment sites
They seem to be confusing shelter with bottle service.
With no taxes on tips (if it actually happens), expect a HUGE increase in tip expectations.
Also with the elimination of overtime pay (if it happens) workers will doubly be expecting higher tips.
Yeah, us neurodivergent people don’t get dopamine hits from that kind of thing. We know the money isn’t really going to the worker in many cases anyway. It’s just going directly to the business to pay their employees normal wages which should be part of the cost of the product, not an add on charge. It just means they didn’t have to raise their prices with inflation.
But the anger/annoyance hits are plentiful!
I’ve stopped shopping anywhere where tipping is required. Tyvm I’ll order online and pick up my food myself.
anywhere where tipping is required.
If it’s required, it’s a fee not a tip.
They still ask for a tip for this. It is a lot easier to refuse online though vs some stupid iPad register.
In New Zealand, as far as we’re concerned, Tipping is a city in China.
I still tip, but if I see a tip screen I clear it and then add a tip or not or tip cash
I hate that tipping culture is a thing in the US and wish the culture would change. But as a former waiter, I’d never take a job at a no-tip restaurant (or even a pooled tip restaurant) because I always made higher than average tips than my coworkers.
If you were still waiting tables, what would you have done/felt had tipping been outlawed? Change of jobs, looked for something at a certain rate of pay for waiting?
As a waiter, I made a lot more money from tips than the wage itself. So making an impression on the customers was a huge priority, and I was good at it. If that was no longer a factor, I imagine it would result in a lower quality of customer service provided by me, even if the employer tried to compensate with a higher wage.
When i order food, i want it brought to my table and for the bringer to be as invisible and quiet as can be. I also avoid places where i can’t pay up front. I never understood the tiping thing.
When i order food, i want it brought to my table and for the bringer to be as invisible and quiet as can be.
I agree. I can’t stand a chatty server because I know they’re performing for tips. Unfortunately, most of them have to because in the U.S., servers can be paid less than minimum wage since they’re expected to make up the difference in tips.
I hope the rest of society gives you lower quality service every day since you’re not tipping them… What a shit attitude
Also anyone who claims tipping results in better service has never left north america
I regularly get shit service here and still expected to tip 15%
Service in most of europe is WAY better and there is generally no expectation of a tip
I hope the rest of society gives you lower quality service every day since you’re not tipping them… What a shit attitude
I tip. Not sure where you got the impression that I don’t. and not sure why you are wishing me a bad life.
Also anyone who claims tipping results in better service has never left north america
Is this assumption made because I admitted to have worked as a waiter?
Do you tip your grocery store cashier? Do you tip your baker? Do you tip your mail carrier? Do you tip your garbageman? Do you tip your local librarian? Do you tip your child’s teachers (if applicable)? Did you tip your lemmy instance admin? Do you tip your local city councillor?
If not, then you should expect shit tier service from them too
I dont wish you a bad life. I’m just pointing out how bad life would be if everyone had your attitude and work ethic
There is an established culture in the US in regards to tipping full service waitstaff. Good luck trying to break that culture without understanding the servers perspective, and why many of them defend the status quo.
It’s clearly not as established as you think… The goalposts keep moving. here are some (un)welcome changes i’ve noticed in my lifetime…
- tipping people we didnt used to tip
- tipping for takeout
- increase in rate of tip
- tip calculated AFTER tax
“this is the way it’s always been done” is not only a stupid defense, but is totally false in this cse
