Such a creepy thing, getting children to chant in devotion to a state flag in schools.
It’s the sort of thing they probably do in places like NK, or the Third Reich, you don’t expect it to come from a supposedly modern, non imperialist nationalistic nation, ya know? :-(
I’m from the UK, my wife is from Singapore, and our son was born in the US. I really don’t think it’s appropriate to force him to pledge allegiance to the US, because he has strong ties to other countries. It feels like brainwashing.
They can’t force you, but teachers can decide that your behaviour in class is uncooperative and your answers are bad, so you should get bad grades. Teachers can decide that when you report you have been beaten up by the Nazi gang in school that you are probably making it up as you are always looking for attention and making yourself be special.
And we (the US) do it for soooo many public events for no reason! I was running in a marathon in Arkansas once where the host said that if anyone kneels during the anthem he will come and make them stand up. I just walked out after this and came back when the race started. There is only one reason: jingoism.
Such a creepy thing, getting children to chant in devotion to a state flag in schools.
Apparently, schools will have to display the ten commandments in classrooms, which means all the kiddies with functional brains get to wonder why chanting to a piece of colored fabric isn’t considered worshipping a false idol.
Also, all the military recruiters will get to awkwardly explain the whole “thou shallt not kill” thing…
I think it’s because the people who made the pledge were just trying to sell flags. “A flag in every classroom” or something to that effect. So, once again, the answer is capitalism.
If you wave around the constitution, it’s indistinguishable from some random bits of parchment. Most people can recognize their flag, even when it’s flapping around and next to similar flags. Humans are just very visual creatures.
In either case, the pledge isn’t actually to the object itself but to the country represented by that object.
The problem we have in the US is that Old Glory is commonly used to represent some particular group’s vision of what the US should be rather than a symbol of the country as a whole. When that sort of change is broadly positive, such as when it started to become a symbol of American ingenuity in space, it’s easy for everyone to rally behind. When it starts to symbolize a message like, “We should give the police unrestrained power.” it becomes more divisive.
Bullshit, I instantly could picture the declaration of independence, it is not a crazy symbol to use as noone has 400 year old parchment lieing around anymore.
I think theres an argument over which would be a more appropriate symbol but personally I think the nationalism stuff to be silly when theres not much the US has done to be proud of.
I’m proud of our younger generations. Do they have a flag?
Dunno for US, but in some monarchies, the flag was carried around by representatives who delivered the will of the king/queen/emperor/etc.
So seeing the flag was the same as seeing the ruler in person.
Symbolism I guess.
The constitution is still the constitution, when you read it from a website. It is still the constitution, when it is read out loud. It is the text and interpretation that matters.
So in terms of pledges it is the least troublesome symbol.
Why worship a piece of colored fabric and when you can worship a piece of paper that literally institutionalizes the practice of slavery instead of abolishing it?
I guess that’s just not “troublesome” enough for the average white liberal, eh?
Oh i absolutely agree that it is bullshit. In principle a constitution however is a reasonable thing for pledges. Politicians, judges, military and the like pledging to uphold and protect their countries constitution is a good thing. (Now whether they actually do that is another question.)
In post-communist eastern Europe it was common to reinforce the nationalistic sentiment in schools to try and erase the Soviet/Russian influence in case of a posible future separatist movement from within.
I live in Ireland, we had an American teacher visit our school for a year. She taught us the pledge, it stands out as one of the stranger memories of my childhood. That and her repeated “they didn’t want bush any more, they wanted Clinton”. Which should give you some sort of hint of how long ago this was.
I know what you meant by “state flag” but I want to be cheeky, so here goes:
We didn’t pledge to a state flag but the federal flag. But the state of Maryland has a fabulous flag, and I’m still devoted to its design all these years later.
For whatever reason, in the 70s, in Maryland, I only recall pledging allegiance in the morning at the start of school during first grade. I don’t think we did it past second grade. In any case, I took the opportunity to insert curse words. I would say it like, “I pledge allegiance to the shit, and to the asshole for which it shits.” I didn’t lower my voice either. I just figured that I would never be noticed. Thinking back, I am surmising that my teacher must have noticed at least once but just ignored it.
Such a creepy thing, getting children to chant in devotion to a state flag in schools.
It’s the sort of thing they probably do in places like NK, or the Third Reich, you don’t expect it to come from a supposedly modern, non imperialist nationalistic nation, ya know? :-(
I’m from the UK, my wife is from Singapore, and our son was born in the US. I really don’t think it’s appropriate to force him to pledge allegiance to the US, because he has strong ties to other countries. It feels like brainwashing.
I don’t think they can force you. There was even a legal case I think.
They can’t force you, but teachers can decide that your behaviour in class is uncooperative and your answers are bad, so you should get bad grades. Teachers can decide that when you report you have been beaten up by the Nazi gang in school that you are probably making it up as you are always looking for attention and making yourself be special.
I’m sure it will be over turned soon. Precident and clear readings of the US constitution don’t matter much nowadays.
And we (the US) do it for soooo many public events for no reason! I was running in a marathon in Arkansas once where the host said that if anyone kneels during the anthem he will come and make them stand up. I just walked out after this and came back when the race started. There is only one reason: jingoism.
The irony is it was ruled based on freedom of religion, primarily.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_State_Board_of_Education_v._Barnette
I hope you don’t live in one of these 46-47 states.
https://thehill.com/homenews/3256719-47-states-require-the-pledge-of-allegiance-be-recited-in-schools-here-is-a-breakdown-of-each-states-laws/
Stop posting nonsense, its settled law that you can’t force people to say the pledge.
Apparently, schools will have to display the ten commandments in classrooms, which means all the kiddies with functional brains get to wonder why chanting to a piece of colored fabric isn’t considered worshipping a false idol.
Also, all the military recruiters will get to awkwardly explain the whole “thou shallt not kill” thing…
It is the job of the education system to root out these potential future threats to social order.
If you take a look at pre 1943 US, you might see some inspirations for Hitler there.
https://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolitics/2012/09/11/160936717/politics-the-pledge-and-a-peculiar-history
The Bellamy Salute was pretty much the same. The Pledge of Allegiance was done with it. It was changed to the hand over heart style in 1942.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellamy_salute
I said it once, I say it again. Why the Flag? I don’t get it. Why not the Constitution? The Flag changed so many Times in US history.
Is there an actual reason or just because the flag is a more visual Token for loyalty?
I think it’s because the people who made the pledge were just trying to sell flags. “A flag in every classroom” or something to that effect. So, once again, the answer is capitalism.
The pledge was just made by flag companies to sell more flags guys
You dont think someone made money off of this?
The visual qualities are exactly the point.
If you wave around the constitution, it’s indistinguishable from some random bits of parchment. Most people can recognize their flag, even when it’s flapping around and next to similar flags. Humans are just very visual creatures.
In either case, the pledge isn’t actually to the object itself but to the country represented by that object.
The problem we have in the US is that Old Glory is commonly used to represent some particular group’s vision of what the US should be rather than a symbol of the country as a whole. When that sort of change is broadly positive, such as when it started to become a symbol of American ingenuity in space, it’s easy for everyone to rally behind. When it starts to symbolize a message like, “We should give the police unrestrained power.” it becomes more divisive.
Bullshit, I instantly could picture the declaration of independence, it is not a crazy symbol to use as noone has 400 year old parchment lieing around anymore.
I think theres an argument over which would be a more appropriate symbol but personally I think the nationalism stuff to be silly when theres not much the US has done to be proud of.
I’m proud of our younger generations. Do they have a flag?
Dunno for US, but in some monarchies, the flag was carried around by representatives who delivered the will of the king/queen/emperor/etc. So seeing the flag was the same as seeing the ruler in person. Symbolism I guess.
Could be 🤔
Maybe I’m gonna find out who started this and if he had any motive at all to pick the Flag 🤔
Yes… why worship a piece of colored fabric and when you can worship a piece of paper with scribbles on it instead?
Yeah I get that it is a symbol but like I said, the Flag changed often and I would have guessed that the Constitution would be a better Symbol.
But idk tho, I’m just some prick from Europe ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
The constitution is still the constitution, when you read it from a website. It is still the constitution, when it is read out loud. It is the text and interpretation that matters.
So in terms of pledges it is the least troublesome symbol.
Allow me to rephrase, then.
Why worship a piece of colored fabric and when you can worship a piece of paper that literally institutionalizes the practice of slavery instead of abolishing it?
I guess that’s just not “troublesome” enough for the average white liberal, eh?
Oh i absolutely agree that it is bullshit. In principle a constitution however is a reasonable thing for pledges. Politicians, judges, military and the like pledging to uphold and protect their countries constitution is a good thing. (Now whether they actually do that is another question.)
In post-communist eastern Europe it was common to reinforce the nationalistic sentiment in schools to try and erase the Soviet/Russian influence in case of a posible future separatist movement from within.
Interesting, can you provide any read on that?
Obviously not.
But here’s an Ukraine read that might be used as an example for or against what I said above. http://litopys.org.ua/polpost/e1a2.htm
Ok, that looks like an interesting read, thanks mate!
I live in Ireland, we had an American teacher visit our school for a year. She taught us the pledge, it stands out as one of the stranger memories of my childhood. That and her repeated “they didn’t want bush any more, they wanted Clinton”. Which should give you some sort of hint of how long ago this was.
She taught you guys the pledge to the US flag or at least made it about the flag of Ireland?
Taught us the US pledge. I don’t remember there actually being a flag in the room, but it was a good 30 years ago
Even in Russia kids don’t chant in devotion to a state flag in schools. America, please fix your schools.
I know what you meant by “state flag” but I want to be cheeky, so here goes:
We didn’t pledge to a state flag but the federal flag. But the state of Maryland has a fabulous flag, and I’m still devoted to its design all these years later.
For whatever reason, in the 70s, in Maryland, I only recall pledging allegiance in the morning at the start of school during first grade. I don’t think we did it past second grade. In any case, I took the opportunity to insert curse words. I would say it like, “I pledge allegiance to the shit, and to the asshole for which it shits.” I didn’t lower my voice either. I just figured that I would never be noticed. Thinking back, I am surmising that my teacher must have noticed at least once but just ignored it.
You sound like a CGP Grey enthusiast https://m.youtube.com/@CGPGrey
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