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Does it also send a poop emoji now?
Let me fill in for them then: “We CoUlDn’T PoSsIbLy pReDiCt ThAt tHiS wAs GoInG tO hApPeN!”
That’s the usual typical Corporate bad faith answer to whenever a serious consequence that everyone could see coming but they kept ignoring finally happens.
MadLad that Elmo is
Failsafe.
Fail Safe.
Fail Open.
Elon is why we need to write safety regulations. He’s the kind of guy who would put sawdust in your food and call it innovation.
Agree on your overall sentiment, though I’d say it is a bit more complicated than that for car doors. You don’t want it to fail and come open while moving, for example, especially if the car is coming to a stop and inertia forces the doors fully open. That Boeing door failed open and it was not very safe.
Vehicle doors should be fail functional rather than open to fail safe. As in designed to be very unlikely to fail and/or still functional even if one or several components do fail.
Edit: I normally avoid commenting on my downvotes (you win some, you lose some) but this one is baffling. What’s controversial or unpopular about what I said?
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Car doors that aren’t on teslas don’t fail open, they are reliable enough that I can’t think of hearing about any failures that don’t involve a collision and deforming of the door (in which case it’s a fail closed and they use the jaws of life to get people out, or another door).
An electronic latch is either engaged or it isn’t. Fail open would mean that in the absence of an electronic signal saying it should be closed, the latch will default to not being engaged, which would mean there’s nothing holding the door closed if another force acts on it.
Don’t assume any benefit of the doubt about Tesla’s. I made no comment one way or another about what I think of their doors vs other doors. For the record, I agree completely that they fucked up this part of the design. The purpose of my comment was to say that taking that design and adding “fail open” to it won’t fix it. Fail open and fail closed both have problems with an electronic latch and the only way to fix it without causing other big problems is to design it in a way that still functions as a door that can be open or latched closed whether or not the electronic part of the latch is working.
And I’m “deliberately misinterpreting” what fail open means? I’m having trouble understanding how it can mean anything other than how I’m interpreting it, even with your clarification, given the disagreement about other car doors failing open. Maybe it’s a misnomer that I’m misinterpreting but why are you assuming I’m doing this in bad faith?
The downvotes themselves don’t matter, I asked because I wanted to know the reasoning behind them, well aware that bringing them up at all will probably result in more of them.
Sure, for the electrical part. But the door as a whole should Fail Open. You can pull over with an open door. You should not have to break the door to escape after a failure.
Two options:
- your statement comes off a bit ignorant - a failsafe would just pop the latch (and up and down motion) and wouldn’t be impacted by braking forces (front and back motion)
- you weren’t explicitly saying bad things about Elon Musk
But the general idea of things still working despite failure is the essence of what the OP was saying. People seem to not like comments that refine what others say (I have plenty of experience there), they prefer comments that either correct or blatantly support the parent comment. I don’t get it, but whatever.
For the fail-safe bit, if the latching system fails to an unlatched position, then the inertia of the door itself could cause it to open on braking and turns (or if someone leans on it or bumps it), since nothing else would be holding it in place.
Obligatory fuck Elon Musk lol.
It’s not generally as bad here as it is on Reddit. I still see the occasional comments that make me wonder if their author has any reading comprehension skills, but Reddit seemed to have representation from those kinds of posters in most comment threads. Even on the topics where Lemmy has general biases for, comments can still go off the beaten trail without getting crucified.
Though with the smaller sample size of voters, I think Lemmy might see more cases where a comment initially goes one way and then swings the other way, which seems to be the case with my comment above, at least for now (and is part of the reason why I try to refrain from ever commenting on the votes, but usually there’s also a spicy or bolder part of my comment where I’m not as surprised if it goes negative).
I had something similar happen to me years ago in a Toyota minivan. The car stalled and died in traffic, some kind of electrical glitch. I got out to raise the hood. The door closed behind me and it came up with just enough battery to lock itself, with my keys in the ignition and my two babies and quadriplegic husband inside. It was 107° outside. And pre-cellphones. I bolted to the nearby gas station to call 911 and grab something to break a window. Meanwhile hubby tried to coach toddler how to wriggle out of car seat and open door, but straps were too snug. Firehouse was near, and the jammed traffic was all in one direction so they used the opposite side and didn’t take long, and they jimmied the door open quickly. But it was boiling in there. Sat the kids by the road to cool off with water and get checked by paramedics, gave water to husband in car with open doors, and waited for a tow to the gas station so I could lower the ramp and get my husband out. Meanwhile of course we made the traffic even worse, but people weren’t too mad when they saw our plight as they squeezed past.
I’m wondering, did some similar glitch happen here, or do Tesla doors lock every time they shut?
Might be the doors are fail shut if anything happens… But that seems like the worst design ever.
Come to think of it, it’s basic design to designate features as fail closed/fail open on loss of power in an emergency, and you go with what’s inherently safe. It appears Tesla did not consider basic safety design. To no one’s surprise.
You’re assuming they didn’t consider it, vs having considered it and thought that its more important to protect property than peoples’ lives. Again, to no one’s surprise.
It really says something when even oil companies will design for these considerations but Tesla won’t.
I design process control equipment for a living and you are 100% correct. When the controller/PLC dies or the power goes out everything goes to a safe state that protects the human. Big part of the design decisions.
I’ve unfortunately been working on process control strategies for almost a year now on new and novel applications for my company, so I’ve been intimately familiar with this. If it isn’t obvious, this isn’t my favorite professional area of interest hahaha.
Designating fail open and fail closed valves is so intrinsic to what I’ve been doing that I can’t imagine someone designing a car control system and not thinking about that at all.
I designed a quencher system that failed closed, no water flowing, during outages once. Granted I was an intern but still not my proudest moment.
It’s weird now as my employer is slowing moving into motion control tech for waste. Seeing the changes like having to really think about hardwired limit switches and safety relays. Chemical world I feel is easier.
We all make mistakes. I once forgot to include gravity in a pressure drop calculation for a 100 ft vertical pipe as part of a steam drum system. I had to send an awkward email revising the design pressure I previously communicated out.
But hey, if we were perfect, we wouldn’t need peer review.
I have a little bit of experience with limit switches, but that’s really interesting. It certainly seems like an unusual system. I’m a lot more familiar with safety relays.
Imagine there is a process that makes a gas that is too hot. The solution is to spray the gas outlet with water. That’s a quencher. The PLC controls the amount the water valve is open or rather how much to close it. If the PLC dies the valve should open up as much as possible and blast water. It is better to waste water instead of risking hot gas going through ducting systems that can’t handle it.
My mistake was putting failed closed valves in the system. If there was a power outage or a dead PLC no water would have cooled the gas. And presumably the ducting would have melted and there would have been fires.
Like I said my most embarrassing mistake. At least we caught it before shipment.
It happens! The important part is review and learning from the mistakes.
IDK about Tesla but yeah Toyotas like to lock themselves.
Auto-lock doors have been a nightmare in general. I always roll a window down at least far enough to stick an arm through every time I get out of a running car because of the one time forever ago that I left a 90s Pontiac Skylark running, shut the door, and it autolocked with the keys in the ignition and the motor running. I had to get my girlfriend to drive me back to my apartment for the spare key while the car was humming away, and I never forgot that. If I wasn’t close to home, with a helpful ride nearby, and a spare key on hand, I’d have been screwed.
Talk about features that need regulated out. All because suburban whites don’t want to remember to lock the doors as they drive through the black neighborhood so the car locks itself whenever you put it in Drive.
Every car I’ve driven with keyless ignition (which seems to be the standard now) refuses to lock if it detects the key inside the car, even if you try to do it manually by pressing the lock button, so hopefully this is a solved problem now.
I’ve honestly never heard of self-locking cars doors, that’s a crazy idea.
Our new keyless ignition vehicle wouldn’t fully close the hatch with the doors locked and the keys in the car. It would go down half way and play the “I can’t close” noise.
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That’s no accident.
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Even if she did receive warnings, she’s a grandmother who easily could miss one of the many messages on the car. It’s just bad design.
The fucking DOORS require a charged battery? Fuck that. That decision will age great in the next ten years. Not to mention emergency situations where the electrical system is compromised.
There’s a release latch on the doors beside the “open door” buttons. I guess no I’ve else is pointing that out?
Pretty sure thats on the inside of the car and is actually covered as well. Release latch means shit in this situation, especially since car door design was more or less perfected over a hundred years ago at this point. Change for the sake of change is a damndable concept for tech.
I’ve had a couple of passengers open the door using the latch because they didn’t know about the Open Door button.
I’m not saying it’s a good design (it’s dumb) but you can get out when there is no power
Now imagine this happens in a remote area with no cell coverage. In Arizona those are a thing too.
I assume Arizona has rocks and bricks and stuff lying around somewhere
Luckily not even the Cybertruck is immune to those
Yes. You go out to grab a rock, go back in and smash the windows. Or keep one tactical door opening rock beneath the seat.
Yeah, but I don’t think EVs have spark plugs to smash and use to break the windows. Checkmate.
No need for remoteness. Imagine you drive into water or battery catches fire. You aren’t opening those doors.
There is a manual release on the inside … So yes you are.
No you are not. People panic and default to most common behavior, this is why emergency exercises are a thing. In other words, the hidden manual release somewhere in the car that was never used is not going to be used in the moment of panic. You won’t even remember it exists.
Also, that’s only on some cars and only in the front. None on the back seat.
It is not hidden, covered, obfuscated, or even in a weird location. It’s literally sitting right on the door handle. Also even with a standard 1990 car with fully manual doors you are not going to be escaping out the doors if your car falls into water. The pressure differential of the water pushing against your door prevents you from opening it until the entire inside of the car has filled with water, MythBusters did a whole episode on this back in the day if you want to go find that for the full story. But the tldr is that once your car is in the water you’re only Escape options are to break the window, get the window rolled down, or wait until the entire car has filled with water and the pressure equalizes
Edit: turns out this is only in the M3, the Y, X, And CT are all designed by absolute idiots, and i joined them by not looking into all models
I looked into all the manuals before posting that to make sure. Turns out they did improve on some models location of it. Which is commendable. But some are downright retarded. Am also well aware about effect of pressure and similar. Am less worried about the water than getting stranded in the car after crash or if battery catches on fire.
Also, thanks for the edit and correcting your statement. We live and we learn. Unless pride prevents us from doing so.
Now imagine you are under the ocean talking to Aquaman.
Easy enough to get out, if you have a couple braincells to rub together. The manual release is not hidden, covered, obfuscated, or even in a weird location. It’s literally right on the door handle
Edit: turns out this is only in the M3, the Y, X, And CT are all designed by absolute idiots, and i joined them by not looking into all models
In the middle of nowhere, maybe. But I’ve been on several road trips across the state and had service the entire way, mostly LTE with a few spots of 3G here and there. As long as you’re near the highway or a town, you’ll get service.
Why not just open the door with the key like every car ever
It’s so obvious, then again I think there’s some cars out there without even a metal key for the engine. So dumb.
My car (Citroën) has a contact less key, I don’t have to get it out of my pocket and the car automatically opens.
But it still includes a small physical key to open the car when the battery (of the car or key) is dead.
The metal key is attached to the contactless key or is it a seperate device?
what happens when a car catches fire because the electrical system is on fire and you can’t Open the door because it’s electric
There are manual releases on each door inside, but I’m surprised they don’t have them outside as well.
Reading more about it, I find that many only have manual releases on the front doors until recently and they have a connection point you’re meant to jump with power to unlock and open from the outside. I didn’t think anyone would be okay waiting for a jump to get their baby out, but then these people waited for firemen to break their window, so…
Hidden manual releases that still require you to push the door through the windows trim. FFS people have already died because of this shit. Why the hell hasn’t there been a mandatory recall on all Teslas over this?
It’s not fucking hidden, it’s right on the fucking door. Right there, in plain view. Fuck elon but equally fuck idiots who never read their manual or bother to learn fucking anything about a product then claim bullshit like that. Nothing about this is fucking hidden.
The rear doors also have one, that’s the only one you could argue is “hidden” as it’s in the little storage pocket area
Edit: turns out this is only in the M3, the Y, X, And CT are all designed by absolute idiots, and i joined them by not looking into all models
A child isn’t going to find that. A rescuer who isn’t familiar with Teslas isn’t going to be able to find that.
I couldn’t even figure out how to open a fully functional door from outside the first time I got in a Tesla. I’m an adult who’s been driving my entire life.
That’s not innovation; it’s a safety hazard for the sake of the aesthetics of a handle that doesn’t stick out. I don’t view that as a reasonable trade-off.
Manual release or you die, just like that lady that drove hers into her pond.
it’s really smart to have non-mechanical mechanical parts for things like a door
You mean, non-electrical… not non-mechanical.
With sarcasm, one might say that it is desirable to have obviously undesirable thing. Your interpretation is one way, but I think they really meant “stupid” instead of “smart”.
I was talking to a Tesla owner about this and they argued that if the window is electric then there’s no difference making the door electric. They couldn’t understand that the door itself can be operated independently of the rest of the vehicle.
Making windows electric causes a safety tradeoff. You get ease of operation while losing the ability to open the window in the event of an accident (where power cannot be supplied). However you can still unlock and open the door manually as an alternative escape option. This also applies in non-accident scenarios (dead battery).
Making doors electric is nothing more than a safety risk. From the inside you might have access to a manual release latch, but some doors require you to unscrew things first. Any emergency situation where you need to exit as soon as possible and the power is lost almost guarantees that you’ll be unable to safely escape.
Nothing about it is hidden, obfuscated, or even in a weird spot. It’s literally right on the fucking door handle. There’s a lot of reasons to hate elon, and there’s a lot of reasons to hate tesla. Let’s stick to the legitimate ones instead of making shit up, it just weakens the arguments for the actual issues
Edit: turns out this is only in the M3, the Y, X, And CT are all designed by absolute idiots, and i joined them by not looking into all models
Ok. So that’s the Model 3.
How about the Model Y?
Ok. Not all Model Ys have rear manual releases. I’ll assume the best and believe that only certain countries have this design.
How about the Model X?
So it’s behind the speaker grille. Uncertain if you need a screwdriver, but I’ll assume not. However it is hidden away from sight.
How about the Model S?
Oh, it’s under the carpet.
So yeah, turns out, I’m not making shit up, and there is indeed empirical evidence for it.
OP posted a photo of the front door release and you posted the rear door release which should be intentionally hidden. The front door release in all models are as OP posted.
The latest Model 3 also hides the rear door release. Often you’ll have guests sit in the rear and they’re used to pulling something to open the door. So they pull the manual release and damage the frameless window.
I’m going to upvote you for providing the viewpoint that models which have the manual releases hide them to prevent damage occurring from someone who instinctively pull on it to open the door. In the case of young children, they won’t know enough to not do the same thing they would do in other vehicles to open the door.
However, obscuring them from view also means they’re at high risk in the event of an accident which kills the power. Trying to calmly walk a child through the steps may not work. I don’t know how much force is needed for some of the release latches (and I’ll assume not a lot is required).
You know what that’s entirely fair, looks like the M3 is the only not braindead design one then. I wouldn’t touch anything other than an M3 then personally (if i was going to use a tesla at all)
Cybertruck also has manual releases but the rear doors hold it in the map pocket. Better but still not in a sensible place when someone is panicking.
You need to fully edit your comment and remove the part defending this nonsense.
There should really be a law, requiring a certain list of mechanical things to exist on the car. So far, it’s only the emergency turn signals, and what, the mirrors? The door handles absolutely need to be on that list
At least one door should open via a mechanical key and mechanical handle from the outside, and I firmly believe the internal door handles should all function mechanically as well. There shouldn’t be “usually you use a button but in an emergency this thing that looks like a bit of trim is the actual mechanical handle” that shouldn’t be allowable by code.
I saw a clip on Just Rolled In where a lady in a Lexus thought she was trapped in her car when the electrics failed, as did the firefighters who broke her window, despite there being manual releases on both the inside and the outside of the car.
I spent enough time in aviation to know how much drilling it actually takes to teach people emergency procedures. If it’s different than what they usually do, it takes hours of practice. Even something as simple as finding and pulling a different door latch. If you’re stressed, even as stressed as “the doors won’t open the way I’m used to them otherwise everything is okay” your brain will just fail to pivot to the alternate procedures.
Cars got so simple to use in the 90’s. Sure they were simpler machines in the 60’s but fuel injection eliminated chokes and other carburetor issues, automatic transmissions became ubiquitous, children can handle vehicles of this complexity. And now we’re making them more complicated for no actual reason, with electric door latches with manual backups and such, and it’s causing problems.
I agree, the main handle you use on the interior and exterior of the vehicle should be PHYSICALLY connected to the latch. Seems like a pretty simple rule to make and enforce and seems pretty common sense.
I have a 61 f100 with shaved doors that only opens electronically from the outside with a fob, but I didn’t build it to be a grocery getter with my wife and kids in it. I know the risks. And the hood opens without having to get into the cab so I can easily access the battery if it’s dead.
A lot of people are giving Tesla shit here, but surely there should be regulations in place to ensure something like this isn’t allowed to be released for public use?
Sure you’d think you wouldn’t need regulations that state that there should be a manual way to open your car door. Have we gotten that stupid? Why in god’s name would you not have that option? What happens if the battery dies and you can’t start the car? You can’t open the door to pop the hood to even jump it. With all the brilliant people that work at a company like Tesla and no one thought there should be a way to open the door from the outside if there’s no power?
Have we gotten that stupid?
Something something “these regulations are written in blood” anecdote something something.
They do have a manual way of opening the car door if memory serves. It’s just in a hard to find place where a toddler wouldn’t think to look. Either way it’s a bad design. Nothing wrong with manual door handles imo.
They have one on the inside but not the outside. That’s why the mom couldn’t get into the vehicle or the firefighters and they had to take an axe to the window. How are you supposed to pop the hood to jump start your car if the battery is dead and you can’t get in the car because the battery is dead? It’s just a stupid design to not have a manual override.
I believe they also have a jump port for exactly that purpose. If that doesn’t work you are stuffed though, as I believe has happened to some cyber truck owners.
The toddler was strapped into the seat at the time, so chances are that they would not be able to find and open the door that way anyhow.
True, a toddler wouldn’t think to look directly on the door handle. Not really the type of place you’d expect to find a door release you know /s
There is a lot of reasons to hate elon, and there is a lot of reasons to hate tesla. But it really pisses me off when people just make these circle jerk hate threads based on something they didn’t even spend half a second Googling. It just makes all the legitimate issues easier for people to blow off
Edit: turns out this is only in the M3, the Y, X, And CT are all designed by absolute idiots, and i joined them by not looking into all models
You keep replying with this shit to every comment. How do you expect a toddler in a child seat to use that lever? Mind you I do not close car doors with my kids inside due to my own paranoia of losing the keys or something, but it’s a horrible design flaw that you can’t open the car from outside when the 12v battery is dead.
If the toddler is locked into their seat they likely aren’t opening any door regardless. This Is Us ignoring the fact that most rear doors have a child lock button that is usually activated at least most parents I’ve seen with toddlers generally activate that button.
There are so many legitimate things to complain about here I’m just annoyed by people basically saying wow how does it not have a manual release, or why is it hidden. When it’s not.
The real problem here is the lack of any external manual release. Obviously it would still need to somehow be locked with a key that is not electronic, but there should still be some type of manual release even if it’s on the bottom trim of the door for the sake of your Aesthetics or whatever. The complete and utter lack of any external manual release is the problem here but nobody is talking about that and is instead just making shit up about how there is no manual release for the inside, or it’s hidden, or difficult to use, I’m just tired of people making shit up.
That’s fine for opening the front doors in the model 3, but have you seen how to open the rear doors in the cyber truck? That’s what I was referring too.
https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/cybertruck/en_us/GUID-903C82F8-8F52-450C-82A8-B9B4B34CD54E.html
The rear is under a cover, I will agree that that is dumb it should be in the same place as the front. Or if the goal was to avoid children randomly pulling it while going down the road at the very least it shouldn’t be covered and just in the little pocket cubby thing. That’s a valid complaint, although at the end of the day even with a normal car a toddler who was in their seat would likely be screwed as the child lock would most likely be activated.
The real issue here is a lack of any external manual release, wouldn’t be that difficult to put one along the bottom side trim of the door. This would allow you to both give it a keyhole and have it out of the way aesthetically. I’d say just put a manual handle on myself, but if you absolutely must have completely smooth the hidden handle door at the very least make sure there’s an external one somewhere for manual release
You’d think.
Every eventuality can’t be covered by regulation. Sometimes you realise something can go disastrously wrong after someone is hurt. I wouldn’t be surprised if this never happened to other mechanical cars to never need regulation. Sometimes you need to wait for a stupid product to exist for someone to make a rule saying “stupid products shouldn’t exist”.
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Yeah, Tesla is certainly not the first ones to have this design or issues with it:
I’d love to see a crank on EVs to power the low voltage stuff in emergencies. How many amps does the car startup take? 15A? Maybe bicycle pedals.
Or just have manual doors and locks with an electric actuator if you really want those “smart” features.
Have your manual doors, peasant, but I will not debase myself in such a fashion.
pfft, ok. If the rich want to cook themselves, all the easier to eat.
So we would have come full circle. That actually has a retro appeal to it that it could catch on!
Really interesting design decision. Was the main battery also dead? I’m guessing not. There’s a step-down converter under the rear seat that outputs 12-16 volts, Tesla could probably have fairly easily set the car up to power the doors from that when the auxiliary 12V battery dies.
Wish Version Iron Man:
"Really? Do you think its 2010 again?
This is the fuuuuuuttttuuurrreeee!!!"
snorts Ketamine and twirls out the door
