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Lets just take Firefox and make it the open source standard. If we all get behind it like we did for Blender, we might succeed.
I doubt it tbh.
For blender it’s fine, but for browser engines it’s different because of their sheer size, complexity, need to adhere and collaborate with others to form web standards, need for security experts, day one vulnerability patches, etc.
If Mozilla dies, random volunteers or existing projects like LibreWolf can’t just pick up the slack.
Volunteers can’t run a modern web engine, it takes hundreds of millions per year to upkeep.
There’s a reason why we’re down to just Google, Apple, and Mozilla. Nobody wants to foot the massive bill unless they have a damn good reason for doing so.
It’s probably more expensive to maintain a browser engine than a full operating system at this point. It’s truly insane how large and costly they are.
I’m sure Linus was told the same at some point.
The Linux kernel is actually a perfect example of this.
It’s worked on by hundreds of companies, and the bulk of the work is done by a small number of megacorps.
If it was worked on by a group of volunteers doing bits whenever they had spare time, it’d be in a much less useful state right now.
You’re seriously underestimating how large and complex web engines are. There’s a reason we’re down to 3 engines and the community hasn’t been able to create one.
It’s hard to do. It requires hundreds of millions a year to keep going.
If it were genuinely so trivial to maintain a browser engine, more would be doing it. Even easier, Firefox forks could take over maintaining the engine, as opposed to just tweaking the browser (not even having to work from scratch with a new engine). But they don’t, for the reasons I’ve already mentioned.
I feel like you missed the point.
Webengines are not more complex than a full OS, and yet, Linux works as a community driven project and Chromium does not.
The difference is that Linus is the one with final say in Linux, and he never sold out to a company. Chromium is Google.
It will never be a “community” project, because Google pumps so many resources into it. The goal is obvious: to make sure that it’s always ahead of any competitors, and anyone willing to catch up would have to match Google spending.
The brilliant move here by Google was making it open source. This ensures that no other megacorp needs to fight them, as long as their interests are aligned.
Edge has died already. Safari will follow. The future is grim.
Nah, you’re missing the point.
Again, maintaining a web engine takes hundreds of millions. It’s no small task.
Volunteers can’t do it.
We cannot simply take over from Mozilla if something happens. It needs corporate or governmental backing, a permanent workforce, management at the top who work on setting web standards alongside other companies, etc.
The Linux kernel was brought up against my argument, but it is in fact an argument for it. It is worked on by megacorps, and without that corporate funding would be little more than a tinkerer’s side project.
Linux has the benefit of companies relying on it and therefore wanting to maintain it. Firefox doesn’t. Businesses have chosen Chrome.
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Check out Ladybird tho, from serenity os project (it also works in Linux). It’s developed by an open source community, and some companies are sponsoring it’s development. It’s not at a usable point, but it’s development has been impressive. If more money is donated by other companies it could be an alternative, maybe
The issue is that Firefox needs an org to get the Widevine DRM from its vendor (Google). Without it, they can’t support Netflix or Apple TV or YouTube.
Yet more proof that the DMCA needs to be repealed and DRM needs to be illegal.
Or we can just drop DRM from the Standard. It’s honestly about 15 years past about time.
Okay have fun not using YouTube
Youtube vids doesn’t use DRM, at least not for the free offerings.
In fact, via yt-dlp you can download Youtube stuff in a variety of free formats.
Cope.
Why? Well, it was Chrome. Yes, I know many of you spit at the very name. Get over it.
OK, boomer (yes, “surprise! surprise!”, this harticle – for “hate driven article” – was written by a boomer, and one that writes for several online publications, too).
This article is not only a (staggering) failure from the aforementioned boomer to grasp what really is at play here, but it also shows a significant, shocking lack of quality assurance in the way “theregister” determines what gets published. This piece isn’t an opinion as much as a flaming bag of shit, meant to stink everyone’s shoes, and motivated only by the author’s ineptitude-fuelled frustration in what seems a textbook example of the Dunning–Kruger effect.
Lemme first address my primary point, in relation to what I quoted at the top, I’ll get to illustrating the various failures of the author after that.
No, Steven J. Vaughan-Nichols, we will not “get over it”.
The first inaccuracy is in depicting Mozilla Firefox as “a browser”. It isn’t merely just another browser. Firefox is the last widespread multiplatform browser that isn’t using the Blink engine (yes I know GNOME Web and Konqueror use WebKit, which is Blink’s ancestor, BTW[1] , but they are hardly widespread. And safari isn’t multiplatform).
Why does that matter? Because the engine is essentially all that a browser is, once you strip away the cosmetics. So the actual contest here isn’t between a dozen of browsers, but between two engines, and Firefox’s (Gecko) is, indeed, in a dire position. But if we let it go further, it will, as Steven puts it, fall into irrelevance (the inaccuracy here is that the harticle depicts Firefox as already irrelevant).
And if we ever come to the point where only one engine prevails, where services necessary for administrations, citizenship, and life in general, can drop support for anything else than Blink, it is the end of the open web, and of open source web browsers in general[2].
You will then have to input intimate personal information into a proprietary software, by law.
If you don’t see this as a problem, you are part of the problem.
And this is why we can’t “get over it”.
The internet is much more than just the web. But 100% (rounded from 99.999+%) of users are unaware of that.
The web is much more than browsing. But 100% (rounded) of users are unaware of that.
We are getting our technology reduced to the lowest common denominator, and this denominator is set by people who fail to open PDFs.
Now, as to the other blunders I mentioned above, here are a bunch:
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“Mozilla’s revenue dropped from $527,585,000 to $510,389,000”.
This is a 3% drop. Significant? Yes. But hardly a game ender.
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“So, where is all that money coming from? Google”.
I know it, you know it, we all have known that for a decade by now, and yes, it is a problem, yes, we need public FOSS funding, but that is neither news, nor relevant. Firefox, as the last major browser not directly controlled by Google, can find funding elsewhere. If I’m correct, and the stakes are so high, when Google pulls out, the public will step in (🤞), in the form of institutions, such as the EU.
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“[…] she wants to draw attention to our increasingly malicious online world […] I don’t know what that has to do with the Mozilla Foundation”.
That’s on you, buddy. Understanding the matter at hand should be a prerequisite for publishing on theregister. But I digress. The maliciousness has a lot more to do with software than with users. And the root of said software aren’t in “the algorithms”, but really in actual, user facing software, that runs in our physical machines, where our microphones, cameras, GPS, and various other sensors are plugged…
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“Somehow, all this will be meant to help Mozilla in “restoring public trust in institutions, governments, and the fabric of the internet.” That sounds good, but what does that have to do with Firefox?”.
Again, it’s on you. Seriously, WTF. I get that you, the author, are American, and that decades of misinformation about “socialism”, and “public ownership” will do that to a motherfucker, but Firefox does need funding aside from verdammt Google. You even highlighted that point yourself… How do you suppose they would get public funding if the government, or the public, doesn’t trust Mozilla? Because replacing Google by another corporation only moves the problem, it hardly solves anything. While I’m at it, quick history lesson here: the “fabric of the internet” has been publicly funded. All of it. The internet was designed by DARPA funded researchers. Public money. Developed by universities. Public money. The web was invented at the CERN, by a researcher. Paid with public money. As a tech writer, how do you not know that?
WebKit is only partially different from Blink, since Blink is a fork of WebKit. So, as far as “interoperability through competing implementations” goes, WebKit is of rather limited relevance, unfortunately. ↩︎
Only chromium and brave are available as open source software, chromium is maintained by Google as a courtesy, they can pull the plug any time, it will probably only affect their revenue positively. Brave is 3 times less popular than Firefox. ↩︎
Thanks for the breakdown. YOU could write for the register.
Thank you 🙏
But I hardly doubt I would be given a voice. I’m just a random millennial struggling to make rent… (no avocado toast involved tho)
Love the clapback
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Today, only a relative handful of Firefox users are left. According to the US federal government’s Digital Analytics Program (DAP), which gives us the running count of the last 90 days of US government website visits, only 2.2 percent of visitors use Firefox.
Look, I know far fewer people use Firefox than Chrome, but basing it on who uses U.S. government websites in the last 90 days doesn’t even make sense if Firefox users were only in the U.S.
I’m in the U.S. and use Firefox and I haven’t been to a U.S. government website in the last 90 days as far as I know.
And, I don’t know if the author knows this or not, but there’s around 200 other countries out there.
Based off the User Agent varriable?
A lot of people in this thread seem to downplay the article with “yeah, that might be your opinion…” but two facts that are facts and not opinions are:
- The market share Firefox hold is insignificant.
- Mozilla’s business is a near 100% dependency on one “customer”, Google.
This means that if Google decides to stop bank rolling Mozilla it’s game over. Firstly because other revenue streams are currently near insignificant when you look at the total expenses.
Secondly because since Firefox hold no significant market share, no one else would be interested in investing in Mozilla and the future of Firefox. After all, whatever Mozilla will throw up on the wall as the “grand masterplan for world dominance” would just end up in the question “Why didn’t you do this before?”.
I’ve been using Firefox for almost 20 years. I started using it because I saw what happens when one company controls the browser market. That web browser did so much damage and we only really got rid of it some year ago.
Chrome is a perfect example that the history repeats itself and that people are fucking stupid. People are actually acting surprised and complain about Google putting effort into making adblocking impossible in Chrome.
So all in all, if Mozilla doesn’t find other revenue streams, Firefox is dead… It just doesn’t know it yet.
Now, everyone yapping about that Linux was an insignificant player and still made it to the top just sound like enthusiasts who really doesn’t know history and the harsh reality of doing business.
Linux was just a little more than hobby project (business wise) that essentially only Red Hat and Suse made real money from in the 90’s.
Arguably you could say that the turning point was when the CEO of IBM, Lou Gerstner, shocked the world by saying that IBM was going to pump in 1 billion dollars in Linux during 2001. Now, that doesn’t look like much today when just Red Hat has a yearly revenue of 3-4 billion, but that’s how insignificant Linux was at that time.
After that milestone Linux went for the jugular on Windows Server. For ordinary people it would still take almost 10 years before they would hold something Linux in their hands.
The rocket engine that accelerated Linux and pieces that it was ready for end users was Google and Android in 2007. Linux’s growth the last 20 years wasn’t mainly driven by enthusiasts, it was business pumping in money in future opportunities.
What future opportunities can Mozilla sell to investors with the market share Firefox has today?
Yup. Mozilla really needs to diversify and find new revenue sources.
They’ve been trying, but it’s proving difficult to do while still refraining from hoovering up and selling everybody’s data. Nobody wants to pay.
To make matters worse, anytime Mozilla tries to make any money, people accuse them of selling out or say they should just focus on Firefox. Some of these people even say that Firefox needs to get rid of Google funding immediately to get rid of Google’s influence.
But that means the death of Firefox. I don’t really get what these people want.
These people want to be rid of Google’s influence, which is why they chose Firefox over Chrome to begin with. But they don’t understand the position Mozilla is in…
Well yeah, I want that too, but it can’t happen until Mozilla is making a decent amount themselves
Some of these people even say that Firefox needs to get rid of Google funding immediately to get rid of Google’s influence.
Which is an importnt factor, because Mozilla is currently being kept alive specifcally to lose.
To be fair, those people (and lots others too) watch everyday some millionaires or billionaires just up and throwing money. Under that premise, it “should be as easy” as just convincing a random capitalist with narcissist complex to fund Mozilla. The problem with that is, people’s memory on the internet tends to not be retrospeculative, so they don’t notice if Mozilla did that they’d be in just about the same position eg.: Reddit was 5 years before 2023.
The issue is biggest for web browsers, but I also feel like I see that issue for a whole lot of web industries. Journalism, for instance. Everyone wants everything for free, and so the “articles” you see are garbage half churned out from algorithms to optimize click rate, and blanketed with dozens of ads. To take another example, games, we have a market saturated with freemium games that encourage people to spend nothing (and then hundreds). Pirates would now claim it’s a moral responsibility to pirate, but if we end up in that world, only a slim minority of people would ever make a living out of it.
The general unwillingness/inability for consumers to pay for digital content definitely causes a lot of problems now. I personally attribute it to a generally low minimum wage, but it could be an issue going beyond that.
Really appreciate the perspective, thank you for sharing
It’s just sad. I love my Firefox and will always do…
Opinion piece by a person who has little to say outside of ad-hominem.
Indeed. Article reads like a spoiled brat. “Get over it”. The second something like that appears, it’s crystal clear the writer thinks they’re above the reader.
Nice try Manifest v3 pushers
The feds should mandate that all websites must be accessible by Firefox. Plus, they should completely switch to Firefox internally.
How would you define “accessible”? The web app I’m working on works in Firefox, but a few text labels are misaligned with their input controls due to slight CSS deviation from Chromium. It’s those things that are most of the problems for supporting both browsers, functionality-wise they’re very close (except newer features that Firefox hasn’t implemented yet or Google-specific features like WebUSB).
I thought it was funny when cockpit a web interface for Linux servers said my Firefox browser was out of date. It locked me out for security reasons until I accessed it with an updated version of Firefox. I was using archlinux and ran updates that morning.
It wasn’t that inconvenient I just SSH into my server for whatever I was doing and they fixed it in about a week.
Fox
Firefox
Kinda disappointed in The Register of all things adopting this faux personal life story reporting style on such a matter.
I found the stats re Firefox usage a little surprising/hard to believe so I double-checked them. Indeed, most rankings show Firefox use hovering at around 2.5%. The open web is sort of already dead, I think. It’s honestly not that uncommon now that I come across websites that don’t work in Firefox and there are zero hints or info that you need to use Chrome. It’s like the world has already forgotten that the web isn’t just an app you access through Chrome.
Google’s been working on this more or less since they launched Chrome, so it’s not surprising, but wow, that fucking sucks.
I blocked this website on my news feed because of this article. It’s opinion piece written by an asshat.
It’s a bit worrying that the journalist doesn’t point out that it’s ALL chrome. Safari, Edge, they all use the chrome engine. A complete monopolization of web features. Most recently we’ve seen the problems with that in trying to ditch good innovations like jpegXL.
Safari has its own engine WebKit
Afaik Blink is a fork of WebKit. It’s good there is some independent development but also safari is closed ecosystem.
I’m all for an EU founded browser and other countries can use it too if they contribute. Same with a YouTube alternative. Yeah politics do whatever politics do, but a perfect solution doesn’t exist once Firefox is gone. And I’d rather see competition than a monopoly.
Honestly, Firefox isn’t bad but it has fallen behind when looking at even Chromium, much less Edge or Chrome.
In what ways? Genuinely curious, I’ve been using Firefox as my daily driver for most of a decade and haven’t even looked at other browsers recently because it’s never given me a problem or lacked a feature.
What do you mean i use chrome at work (forced) and firefox at home and I find firefox technologically better than chrome.
