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I wonder how Israeli historians will remember this. Will they take take position of Germany and grow or US and justify all the shit because “we had to do it, we’re great”
They will deny it. They already making sure to get rid of all journalists and refuse visa for new one.
Is that even possible with amount of records there are? They can kinda delay and twist the truth for a while but not for long.
I just hope records are still being maintained. Digital records are fragile if not stored in a cloud.
I’m sorry what? Digital records, ones you can infinitely and cheaply copy and store are fragile? I’ve been seeing this meme come up now and then and I’m seriously perplexed how. People are literally spending billions to digitize stuff because it’s easier to archive 🫣
Oops I dropped the laptop.
Oops the hackers encrypted all my data in a ransomware attack.
Oops my credit card expired, so my cloud storage didn’t renew.
Oops I forgot the password to my encrypted thumb drive.
Oops I lost my micro SD card.
Oops I dropped my phone in the toilet.
Oops my photo hosting company went out of business 6 months ago and I forgot to download my photos.
Just back up? Good luck backing up paper lol oops the elements erased everything 🫣
If it’s distributed properly then yeah. If not then it’s actually easier to get rid of than hard records.
Whatever keep building your strawmen lol
They’re already saying “we had to do it, we’re great”. It’ll take some government toppling before that tune changes.
History and how it went is written by the winners not losers. Germany and the US took those stances because of who lost and who won. As long as israel „wins“ (in whatever definition) it will write its history as a winner.
You give too little credit to the German people.
Also genocide is critical part of Israel’s existence so I’d be very disappointed if they don’t seriously reflect on this at least. Though I guess you should never underestimate a cult.
Too little credit? You can’t seriously believe they’d be in the same state today if they’d won WW2. The only reason there’s been any reckoning is because they lost and were forced to confront their crimes.
There won’t be a reckoning in Israel because they aren’t going to lose and no one will force them to confront it.
Judging by their continued “unwavering support” for Israel, it looks like their “confronting with their crimes” and their “never again” was only ever the racism-preserving “Turns out Jews are like us so we really regret what we did to them” rather than the humanist “Something like this should never be done to anybody again”.
Certainly Germany’s posture in all this has been the deeply racist “We have to support the Jewish people no matter what” rather than the actual humanist posture of “Mass murdering people because of their etnicity is unacceptable no matter who does it”.
The Nazis might have been kicked out of Germany by the Allies, but it looks like the cold calculating racist way of judging the worth of people and their right to live, using their etnicity, never left the German Hearth.
(I’m profoundly dissapointed with German and Germans in this)
Both statements can be true. Read it again.
Read what again? You said nothing other than Germans don’t get enough credit, which is bunk, and then you talked about Israel. If anything, they get too much credit, we are talking about acknowledging genocide. It isn’t something you should get credit for because it never should’ve happened in the first place. And it wasn’t even a choice, outside forces compelled them to own up to what they did.
Really? You shouldn’t credit people for awareness and change?
Maybe if Americans did that you guys wouldn’t be burning books about slavery lol
Germans continued to profess unwavering support for Israel as Palestinian children’s bodies pilled up, so clearly their “awareness” isn’t that “all mass murder of people simply for their etnicity is wrong” but rather the very specific “what we did to the Jewish People was wrong”.
The former would’ve been “awareness”, but judging by their behaviour in this what they’ve learned is not that a specific kind of action is wrong but rather that a specific instance against a specific people of acting thus is wrong - or if you will and using a metaphor, they didn’t learn that stealing is wrong, they learned that them stealing from that specific target is wrong.
Learning to “Not steal from that person again” when caught and punished isn’t really deserving of much credit.
As the rate of Palestinian children killed by Israel to Israelis killed by Hamas surpasses the infamous 10-to-1 of Nazi killings of random villagers in Occupied France in reprisal for German deaths at the hands of the French Resistance, the pro-Israel propagandists are still calling Israeli actions as “defense”.
This is quite consistent with the last couple of decades of Israeli propaganda: Palestinians and even Arabs in general are always portrayed as “violent” (not Hamas or Hezbullah being violent, rather the entire etnical group is painted as “violent”) and follows the playbook from Goebbels and the one generally used by Fascists (not just Nazis, though in terms of rabid racism, the Nazi kind of Fascism is the closest one to the what’s voiced and the acts of the Israeli leadership and their military) were the target etnicity is painted as “violent” and “attacking us”, thus justifying mass murder as “defense” or “protecting ourselves”.
I expect the history they write will be anchored on that fantasy of “defense”, whitewashing the extreme disproportion in deaths -most of which civilians - that would otherwise make it painfully obvious that what’s being done is far beyond “defense”, beyond even the racist kind of “reprisals” (racist because all Palestinians are made to pay for the acts of the tiny fraction of them which is Hamas) and into “ethnic cleansing” territory.
Today’s evidence will be hard to destroy and deny. Cameras and shit.
Move along. No genocide to see here.
They are using it as an opportunity to carry out the pogrom they always wanted to. It’s clear now that the Hamas attack is exactly what Israel wanted.
Don’t forget Netanyahu literally funded Hamas.
What a fucking disaster. Netanyahu and Hamas have been quite the blight on mankind
While Hamas is reprehensible and undoubtedly evil, the blood shed by Netanyahu and his policies would make the entire country of Qatar blush.
What percent of Americans died in the 9/11 attacks? How many 9/11s is this?
Since no one answered your question. I’ll assume you were just curious about the numbers. It’s easy enough to answer.
Around 23k civilians in Gaza have been killed by Israel since October 7th. On 9/11 2001, around 2.6k were killed in those attacks. So, around 8.8 “worth” of 9/11s.
Given 94 days since October 7th, it would be a “9/11 amount of civilian casualties” every 10.6 days.
Or perhaps:
A “Hamas October 7th” every 5 days. For over 3 months straight.
If you do what Israel was doing, you’d need to scale it on per capita basis. So America is about 330 million and the population of Gaza is about 2.3 million. So the population of America is 140 times the size of Gaza. So 1232 or so 9/11’s.
I suppose that makes sense if you want to equate % of civilians. Which is certainly relevant for “how likely it is that I know or am related to someone who was killed”.
Whichever way the numbers are measured, it is absolutely horrific what Israel is, and has been doing for decades.
As this wasn’t a terrorist attack, a closer analogue is a recent war.
One estimate puts civilian casualties in the Battle of Mosul at around 40,000
I’d be willing to bet good money that this is pretty fucking terrorising to the people who live in Gaza.
It’s also predictable to see your username on every post about Israel doing evil shit. Always taking the apologetic tone. Not to wrap myself in tinfoil, but, you wouldn’t be part of some propaganda machinery, right? Perhaps just a sucker for one?
Oh, and where were we on the “Do you condemn Israel for its genocide”? Ifs and buts, still, I presume?
I’d be willing to bet good money that this is pretty fucking terrorising to the people who live in Gaza.
This is not, in fact, the definition of terrorism.
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Terrorism doesn’t mean “scary thing.”
It means a lot of things to a lot of people, in a lot of contexts. There are more than 250 definitions used in academic literature. More interestingly, it’s consistently used by people with significant bias, and inability to understand it from the perspective of “the enemy”. It is a word, after all.
Now, king of the red herring fallacy of which you are, I’ll just point out that when a state commits war crimes against a civilian population, it’s reasonably well accepted to be considered as “state terrorism”. But, I’m sure you’ll regally conjure a ignoratio elenchi response.
Not that this ever was a bar needed to pass in order to answer the rather simple question posed. So, to get back to where you sidetracked off from:
Around 23k civilians in Gaza have been killed by Israel since October 7th. On 9/11 2001, around 2.6k were killed in those attacks. So, around 8.8 “worth” of 9/11s.
Given 94 days since October 7th, it would be a “9/11 amount of civilian casualties” every 10.6 days.
But why not use a different unit of measurement. How about:
A “Hamas October 7th” every 5 days. For over 3 months straight.
But hey, it isn’t terrorism if it’s genocide, right? But, you’re not sure about that last part. Perhaps it’s not systematic enough to check that box? After all, it’s not like they’re carpet bombing a region with a population density twice that of of San Fransisco, of which half are children. Given the average of 10 civilians killed per Israeli airstrike. There is some randomness for it to not be on-the-nose genocide, but not too much randomness to be obvious acts of terrorism. Just that pleasantly tempered amount of killing of children to argue in bad faith.
Terrorism, in its broadest sense, is the use of intentional violence and fear to achieve political or ideological aims. The term is used in this regard primarily to refer to intentional violence during peacetime or in the context of war against non-combatants (mostly civilians and neutral military personnel)
Sure seems to fit the wiki description at least
“Kurdish intelligence believes that over 40,000 civilians have been killed as a result of massive firepower used against them, especially by the federal police, air strikes and Isis itself,” Mr Zebari added. Mr Zebari, a native of Mosul and top Kurdish official who has served as the Iraqi finance minister and prior to that foreign minister, emphasised in an exclusive interview that the unrelenting artillery bombardment by units of the Iraqi federal police, in practice a heavily armed military unit, had caused immense destruction and loss of life in west Mosul.
40k dead in around 9 months, largely from bombing campaigns
Israel is at around 23k dead in around 4 months, not yet including the potential dead under all the rubble from the residential areas, hospitals, and schools being bombed. Also not including those who will die of dehydration, starvation, and disease due to Israel artificially restricting food, water, electricity, fuel, and humanitarian aid.
These are also two different situations. Do you think Israel is an apartheid state?
My sympathy for Israel is pretty much gone now.
Let me just clarify that this is my sympathy for the State of Israel that I’m talking about, not my attitude toward Jewish people in general who have nothing to do with this.
They definitely got played like a fiddle and did exactly what their enemies wanted them to do.
The ripple effects of this genocide is going to ruin their ability to have normal state relations and any semblance of security for generations.
Israel lost the long game, because they reacted and failed to choose to respond.
This is really weird phrasing that pretends that Israel has no responsibility for their actions.
They chose to do this, they are responsible for what they’ve done.
Let me be clear. Israel is fully responsible. They were an obvious mark for manipulation (this is Israel’s fault). Because of this, an adversary provoked them, and successfully goaded them into making a genocidal blunder. Also Israel’s fault.
The Israeli government is unhinged, hateful and fascist and those qualities were leveraged by an adversary. It’s an absolute embarrassment.
Germany was so much more efficient, take pointers you hypocrits
Germany killed 60% of European Jews between 1933 and 1945, which is 5% per year or 1.25% every three months.
Israel has killed 1% of Gaza’s population in three months, and if they maintain current pace will be at 4% per year.
So they’re 80% as efficient if they sustain the current rate. Not a huge discrepancy.
That’s not how percentages work.
That’s exactly how percentages work. The pre-war population of Gaza was 2.3 million. If Israel kills 23,000 Gazans in three months, then that’s 1% of the population.
If Israel kills another 23,000 Gazans in the next three months, that’s another 1% of the pre-war population, and Gaza’s population will now be 98% of the pre-war total. And so on.
If you’re trying to say that percentages can only be calculated in the context of compound rates, then you’re flat-out wrong.
If you kill 5% of the population every year from 1933 to 1945, how much of the initial population >you end up killing?
This is the simple math problem you stated and the answer is 46%, not 60%. Nobody does the calculation the way you do. Or you think that a simple math problem has two contradictory answers? Show me a single example that someone does the calculation the way you do to answer such a problem, you have the whole internet. I accept my error if you find it.
I think he meant to word it, if you take 5% of the initial population every year for 12 years, how much of that initial population is left, no?
That’s how he made the calculation, but it’s not what he said, because 5% of European jews each year it’s not the same as 5% of the initial European jews. The word initial is absent and in my view that make its numbers wrong. But yeah, may be I’m being too strict and most of you understood what he meant. By I think it’s misleading because it can give you the idea that in general if you have 60% in 12 years you can calculate the percentage for each year just by dividing by 12. And that is certainly wrong.
Genocide Joe going full steam ahead with this through the election. Let’s see how well the Democrats can do winning the Nazi vote.
I see this argument a lot, and I am absolutely a hardliner on genocide. That said, I am also aware that a second Trump presidency will be the end of our nation as we know it. It used to be so simple when voting for candidates - it was “evil” vs “more of the same”, but now it’s “evil” vs “genocide as a foreign policy.”
What is the exit strategy for us as a nation? How many times can we stave off a Republican presidency? Even voting blue we are slipping right - how many times can we vote for the Democrats until we’ve made so many concessions that the blue guy is just exactly equivalent to the current red guy?
I’m really trying to argue in good faith. If someone has a decent answer to this, I’d love to hear their side. Otherwise it seems to me like we are headed for some kind of civil war in this country.
You think the Trump and the Republicans will be any better?
I’m not sure that matters when Biden’s support for genocide is making a second Trump term more and more likely. He needs to be differentiating himself from Trump in order to drive turnout. Blindly supporting Israel’s ethnic cleansing campaigns does the exact opposite.
Trump will just make it worse.
Ah yes, the classic centrist appeal to esteemed colleagues on the “other side” of the political spectrum. Leave it to Dems to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, somehow handing a win to the criminal former president McDrinkBleach
Ah the classic IDF appeal for Genocide Joe.
About 1500 people were killed or taken hostage by Hamas. That attack was horrific and wrong, and sadly Israel has done their best to ensure that their response is equally horrific and wrong. Because their idea of morality is to be equivalent to Hamas, while telling you Hamas is evil. Their thinking is so far up their own asses on this.
Fuck “equally wrong”. They’ve been marching way ahead since before 1949.
IDF has been leading the pack for quite sometime
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Oh yes. It’s always the Palestinians “starting” it. Don’t mind the settlers, the Palestinians arrested and held for years without trial, the random house searches by the IDF, the protestors shot by snipers, the blockade that’s been in place for decades, or anything else.
It’s always their fault, you just have to ignore everything Israel has been doing, right back to the initial terrorist campaign against the British soldiers.
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