Or maybe they will launch Win 12 with optional TPM support.
Imho making the OS(es) TPM only cannot be good for their business, many people are still on Win 10 with no intention to switch, since their motheboard does not support TPM and do not want to upgrade PC / waste PCI-E slot on TPM extension.
After using Windows for 30+ years now (since Windows 1), this is one of the straws finally pushing me into Linux.
I’m running 10, but without a TPM, can’t go to 11. So sad. Not.
Honestly 7 was the last decent OS they made. In my opinion the good OS’s were NT4 (game changer), 2000, XP, 7. They can keep the rest.
You can use the Rufus USB flashing tool with the Windows 11 iso and it will remove the TPM requirement and others.
Rufus is the shit, love Rufus.
It’s pretty brilliant!
This breaks your ability to get security updates on win11 though right?
Windows Update gets turned off yes.
But you wait say 6 months and then it back on, Do all updates and then run the playbook again (after it’s been hopefully updated)
6 months no patches?
Yeah… Sounds like a great idea that all non-tech users should be using /s
But then you’ve got Windows 11… shudder
Then you run Windows AME with the Revi playbook 😜
I prefer Windows RG!
Ah yes, memories!
Yeah I have windows 11 on multiple computers without secure boot or tpm enabled
Oh that’s neat. Thanks!
Oh windows 2000 how I miss thee.
All the current major distros of linux require TPM.
TPM prevents users from downloading random kinder eggs that install ransomware. Any business that disables TPM is crazy.
I’d like to see how you disable tpm on 2010s thinkpad where tpm don’t even exist
Why do you say a TPM prevents users from running malicious software? As far as I know that’s not really what they’re used for.
If I was not using my PC for gaming also, I would probably say fuck them and be on Linux too. But gaming on Linux is cancer.
But gaming on Linux is cancer.
Your information is outdated
Gaming on Windows just works, gaming on Linux can work but might be problematic with some hardware (as is the case with OP based on another comment they made), let’s not pretend it’s as easy.
Having recently switched myself I actually have experienced less issues and better game performance from Linux than I did on Windows, at least with the games I play and the hardware I have.
Definitely not what I would call cancer
“at least with the games I play”
As mentioned in a recent article that was shared around here, for the games that work on Linux performance on average is 17% better, for the games that don’t work on Linux, performance is infinitely better on Windows 😛
For sure, but these days the main offenders are online multiplayer games with restrictive anti-cheats.
I would go so far as to say if those specific types of games are not your thing you aren’t likely to experience any issues gaming on Linux.
I’m sure there are exceptions, but every time I think “oh this game for sure won’t work” I have eaten my words.
And it’s like a night and day difference from the last time I tried to do this about a year and a half ago. The progress I’ve seen is almost more impressive than the performance gains. 🤷
But if you switch to Linux for gaming, and the game you want to play doesn’t work… Well it’s not like you can trade that 17% performance improvement in to get the game to function.
That’s a huge roadblock if you don’t know what games won’t work.
Some of the games I play can’t be played on Linux because of anti-cheat. One even uses a fucking kernel-mode driver on windows so it sure as hell ain’t working on linux
you got a lot of hate because Lemmy tends to be militantly pro-Linux, (it sort of goes hand-in-hand with the FOSS ideas that Lemmy is built on) but every Linux user who built their own rig has wanted to throw their computer out the fucking window while trying to get nvidia drivers to work.
Linux gamers point to the Steam Deck as the example that gaming on Linux isn’t awful… The Steam Deck is an amazing advancement, but it’s essentially just a console like the Xbox or PlayStation; It’s using a known list of hardware, with pre-installed and pre-tested drivers. As far as play-testing and QA is concerned, that’s as close as you can get to having a controlled environment. For people who build their own computers, drivers on Linux are still a fucking nightmare. You still occasionally have to fight with them just to get modern games working.
It’s better than it used to be, for sure. But it’s nowhere near as easy as many people want to claim. Especially when compared to Windows, where it usually is just plug and play. Microsoft can suck a chode for their invasive and monopolistic practices, but those same practices are also what led to gaming being so fucking easy on Windows. You buy the game, you install the game, and the game boots up first try. Because companies test for Windows. They know what to expect from Windows. They know how hardware will perform on Windows, and what the potential pitfalls will be. None of that is true for Linux, where the OS varies just as much as the user’s hardware.
I do genuinely believe it will continue to get better. But people who go “lol gaming on Linux is ezpz” aren’t doing Linux any favors. Because if someone hears that, tries it, and finds out it isn’t easy? They’ll be much more inclined to just go “fuck it, I tried and it didn’t work so it must not be for me” and default back to Windows.
In my personal experience, drivers and basically everything where more straight forward (I’m on an Nvidia card). Just boot and run with significantly better performance than windows. On my crappy laptop with only integrated GPU same thing. Maybe because I don’t play any anti cheat games. Also in the indie sector there is a bit more effort on proton compatibility, basically all I have tried just work.
Drivers aren’t really an issue anymore either…
As long as you choose AMD. If you look at the Steam Hardware Survey, Linux users have very different purchasing patterns.
Hybrid gpu laptops: I’m about to ruin this man’s whole career
I have a dual GPU laptop 🤷
I have a dual GPU laptop with an AMD base and an Nvidia GPU.
Hasn’t been a problem at all (though it certainly was when I tried a year and a half ago)
Saying gaming on Linux is caner is “hate”? Lol
Come on. Go look at forums, communities, etc and see how much effort people have to put in to Linux at times just to get sound working properly, and that’s before a game is even loaded.
Just look at comments here, with problems you never see on windows.
Linux still has these issues, though they’ve gotten tremendously better.
When’s the last time you loaded windows and sound didn’t work out of the gate?
Windows just works, that’s what OP is on about. He wants to play games, not play “what isn’t working in my OS now?”.
This is also part of what drives the console market - people just want to play their game.
The Linux community can be blind about these barriers for tee average user. Yea, you can lookup and learn commands, where stuff goes, etc. But by god is that a pain in the ass. You’ve gotta be sufficiently motivated about what your doing to want to get through that. And I say this as someone who had Unix classes a long time ago.
When’s the last time you loaded windows and sound didn’t work out of the gate?
I had trouble getting Assassin’s Creed Valhalla, Cyberpunk 2077, Horizon Zero Dawn, and BG3 to open at all on Windows at various times.
All of them work great for me on Linux.
I think 99% of my issues with Windows were due to Windows Updates messing with my drivers but the point is I don’t have those problems on Linux. You never hear about Linux forcing updates that break your system.
Just last week I had to do an emergency unbrick on my linux server because of updates…
Ah but the difference is that Linux doesn’t force you to install those updates.
I think you misread my comment? Or I’m misreading yours. I agree with you lol
Even more fun when you need to do machine learning (for which linux is often the best or only option). Getting nvidia drivers to play nice is hard enough, try adding CUDA.
The irony of that is… it was easier to get it working in Windows.
Anyone gonna tell him about the Steam Deck?
Dude just wants Microsoft-sempai to notice him. I don’t think reason or facts are very useful
Lol.
Just look at the comments here about gaming problems on Linux.
Seriously - you never see these problems on windows these days.
“We’ll, just buy different hardware” is one answer. Imagine saying that to someone who has an extant gaming setup running windows.
You mean OP whose hardware will be obsolete for running up to date Windows and it’s on the bargaining stage of grief?
I use Linux for gaming. I have no problems nor I’ve found a game I can’t play. I know there are, just that no game I wanted to play had idea issues, and I don’t even check before buying them anymore. And I’m supposed to have bad hardware for Linux, having had Nvidia all my life.
Most comments I’ve seen are from people who haven’t tried, just parrot what others parroted.
Not everyone wants to buy separate hardware for gaming, OP mentioned in another comment that Linux doesn’t play well with their laptop if they want to play games on it. It’s funny to see some of the Linux crowd being unable to admit that it just isn’t as plug and play as running Windows… Especially with an Nvidia GPU.
Eh? I wasn’t suggesting they buy separate hardware. I was just responding to the comment about Linux being cancer for gaming. The Steam Deck is literally proof that the OS is completely viable for gaming. I’ve been gaming just fine on my desktop with an Nvidia 3090. Linux really isn’t as bad as you think it is. It’s funny how there’s a bunch of Windows users that refuse to believe that gaming can happen on another OS. Just sounds close minded tbh.
Not so much anymore, it’s apparently improved significantly and getting better all the time. Check out linux_gaming. A lot of avid proponents there given the shitshow M$FT has made of Windows.
I have 300+ games in my Steam library, some of them with Linux builds, just a few. The rest work with Proton. I did not find a game yet that didn’t work on Linux…
Fortnite.
Well, it works until the server kicks you off.
It’s so easy to run on Linux now. Lol what are you doing?
That’s what the Steam Deck is for. ;)
I game on Linux and don’t even have Windows installed. If a game doesn’t work on Linux, it isn’t worth playing so I refund/don’t get it in the first place. I’m tired of getting fucked by Windows so I’m not going to use it. At this point I just don’t care about what doesn’t work on Linux, I’m better off using it than any of the other choices anyway.
making the OS(es) TPM only cannot be good for their business, many people are still on Win 10 with no intention to switch
The switch from Win 10 to Win 11 costs nothing, so Microsoft doesn’t care at all whether you keep using 10 until your PC dies.
The next one you buy will come with 11 preinstalled.Microsoft doesn’t care if you install Linux either.
You’ve already paid for the Windows license when you bought the PC.So don’t pay for windows, get it unactivated and use MAS to activate it.
You’ve already paid for the Windows license when you bought the PC.
Me scratching off the labels of old Win7 office computers at work
No chance.
The way Microsoft phrases it, it’s way more ubiquitous than you make it out:
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/topic/what-is-tpm-705f241d-025d-4470-80c5-4feeb24fa1ee
"TPM has been around for over 20 years, and has been part of PCs since around 2005. In 2016 TPM version 2.0 - the current version as of this writing - became standard in new PCs.
The odds are that your PC does already have TPM, and if it’s less than 5 years old you should have TPM 2.0.
To find out if your Windows 10 PC already has it go to Start > Settings > Update and Security > Windows Security > Device Security. If you have it, you’ll see a Security processor section on the screen."
So when they say:
“Important: Windows 11 requires TPM version 2.0.”
They’re requiring a standard established 7 years ago. Windows 11 launched in 2021, why WOULDN’T it require something from 2016?
You really want to run an OS from 2021 on hardware older than 2016? That’s not going to be a good idea, TPM or not.
Probably worth noting that TPM often needs to be enabled in the motherboard’s BIOS. It’s possible that OP has it already, but got the “you don’t have TPM” error when trying to upgrade to Win11, simply because it isn’t activated in their BIOS.
Yup, seems likely given how it’s baked in and has been baked in for years.
It’s hard to avoid. People here just have been bitching about tpm because Linux distro maintainers don’t want to jump through hoops signing their shit. This problem doesn’t exist outside of Linux forums and people with absurdly old hardware.
Wrong. Linux has supported TPM2.0 for ages before even Windows and every distro maintainer would gladly sign their shit. The problem is that a shitload of hardware only accepts Microsoft TPM keys by default which can’t legally be used by Linux distributions, forcing the work onto the users. It’s pure vendor lock-in.
Also, this is going to be a way less of an issue when UKI’s become the standard.
Imho making the OS(es) TPM only cannot be good for their business
It is good for their business.
There are very few people who turn away from M$ because they disagree with the TPM requirement.
There are some more people who whine and complain about the TPM requirement. Note the subtle difference :-) Experience has shown that most of these people have no real problem. They find a way, for example buy new hardware. It was a success for M$ if you buy new hardware.
In the long run, M$ wants to make more use of your TPM. Therefore I do not think that they see any reason to drop it.
https://lemmy.world/post/9205583
Here’s why it’s against Microsoft interest to drop TPM requirement. They will paywall updates for Windows 10. So, pay for software updates or pay for hardware updates.
Because there is no possible alternative /S
This is nothing new. Windows 10 will be 10 years old at that point. They’ve done paid extended service for several previous windows versions. I don’t like Windows or Microsoft. I run Linux or MacOS where I can but I can’t fault them for supporting an OS for 10 years.
Longer than apple will ever support an OS you can be damn sure about that.
The updates are free and changes affecting user interface and software compatible are minimal. Especially compared to windows versions.
I quite enjoy MacOS but they are way more likely to break backwards compatibility than Microsoft. I would argue that one of Microsoft’s biggest problems with Windows is that they don’t break compatibility often enough. The engineering effort they put into maintaining support for archaic software is pretty immense.
What? No. lol
Apple updates constantly break whether or not an application can be updated and remain compatible. It’s literally the biggest headache we have when dealing with Apple in an enterprise environment. This version of Adobe CC only works on MacOS Big Sur but the other department is still on High Sierra and this remote site is fully on Monterey. None of their projects are cross compatible because they’re all on different versions of Adobe which aren’t compatible with their OS versions.
User interface? Sure. Though W11 can look exactly like 10 if you want. I don’t really care about changes in aesthetic though.
Sounds like an Adobe/corporate IT management issue. My only experience is with MacOs on personal devices. All companies I’ve worked with have used windows and updates were avoided until absolutely necessary.
Lol “I have no knowledge of this but it’s definitely a management problem.”
Thanks, but it’s not. Adobe can’t be updated past a certain point unless you update the OS. Can’t do that cause the machine is too old? Better buy a new one. The point of being “too old” is much much younger than Windows PC hardware.
Windows is easy, just update it. Still on Windows 10? No problem. Still supported. The updates are also free lol for whatever that matters.
I’m not familiar with MacOS, but what’s preventing Adobe from updating? Is it updating from the App store and apple just stops delivering the updates after EOL or is it that Adobe doesn’t bother pushing updates for OS versions past their EOL?
In any case, it sucks that apple decides that a otherwise perfectly capable computer is no longer supported just due to age (like with phones I guess…)
Yeah, I know it’s nothing new. Just an example of what Microsoft offers to people on his situation and how Microsoft won’t suddenly backtrack on W12.
What incentive would they have? What competition is there?
What incentive would they have? What competition is there?
They would have no incentive of course. A Win11 system with the TPM turned off would be infected with malware straight away.
From business standpoint, it simply bleeds you potential profits. If tens of percents skimp on two of your OS iterations in a row and keep windows 10 (which most of were “free” upgrades from Win 7 to begin with) then you are losing lot of revenue in a long run. I got the original win 10 upgrade in 2015 (bought win 7 in 2011) , in 2020 build a new PC and still use that licence on it.I possibly see myself using Win 10 well into 2026/2027 when my PC is due for complete replacement. So that is over 15 years period where MS saw no money from me while I still use completely legal version of OS. If there was no TPM requirement, I would probabably already be on Win 11
You make it sound like MS cares about home users at all. MS makes money off business licensing. Forcing businesses to dump old equipment is a big win for them.
It’s not like the people that aren’t upgrading were making them any money anyways. MS doesn’t care about you or the 10’s of people that decide to not upgrade.
Businesses swap hardware every 2-4 years anyway, for support or warranty reasons.
Absolutely not. None of the arguments you said are even relevant for their business. If it was true they would do their best to reduce the requirements creep version to version.
Of course you can use Linux, but you made clear that you’re uninformed about that in another post.
I’ve been running 11 on my 10 y/o PC without TPM 2 for a while and it’s been working with zero issues. It’s all just a money grabbing scheme to get people to upgrade their hardware.
Rufus or registry editing during installation can both dodge the requirement if you need it.
TPM == double plus good/secure, right?
