“In the entire dataset, 29% of men said they never approached a woman in person before. 27% said it had been more than one year. This was larger for men in the age 18-25 group: 45% had never approached a woman in person,” according to the study.
A majority of single males surveyed reported fear as the main reason they do not approach women for dates in person. Fear of rejection and fear of social consequences were the two most common responses.
The data highlights a growing concern in the United States and abroad — loneliness. A 2023 report from the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services found that almost half of U.S. adults report “measurable levels of loneliness.”
It’s interesting to say the least. It seems as though the social repercussions and rejection are the most profound reason. While the fear of rejection is easy enough to digest. But I think the fear or social consequences is a relatively new construct.
From what I understand it’s the fear of being viewed as a creep to approach a woman out of the blue. Which to me, is reasonable enough. But I don’t think I have ever heard my old man or anyone of his generation bringing this to the table.
Yet I do remember asking my friends about picking up hints and whether or not men are really that bad at it. And most them saying the just don’t want to risk misinterpreting it.
Perhaps there is an argument to be made that approaching women like this, has fallen out of social fashion. What do you guys think?
p.s. I hope this is casual enough of a conversation. I kinda screwed up my last one, I admit.
Edit: Here is a more detailed paper on the survey for those that are interested
A female friend once said that, at least in the US, men are often viewed by women as being either creepy or not creepy. The not creepy men have learned to avoid women due to the creepy men, so the only men who would approach a woman must be creepy.
Make of that, and its consequences, what you will.
Well what I make of that is, that it’s (perhaps) an out of date social norm ;)
It would seem so.
There are asexual men too. And asexual women.
I feel like this whole conversation is so alienating. You talk to people. You interact with people. Some of them are women. Some of the women you interact with are really cool. Maybe you find them attractive. So you say, “hey I know this is kind of a random encounter, but I’d like to see you again. Is there any chance we could hang out and go see a movie or get dinner or something?”
You aren’t making first contact with an alien species. It’s just people. Someone you’re interested in, who might be interested in you. Don’t bring a whole lot of baggage to the dance, just see if they want to go out. Have something in mind to do.
Maybe that’s how you could spend your off time. Engage in something creative. Go to shows or plays or something that you do regularly that you can invite them along on. Listen to live music at some venue. Take an art class. Book club. Ping pong lessons. Go to a pokémon tournament if that’s your bag. Just something that represents your interests that you can invite them along to, and if they don’t want to come, ask what they want to do.
Perhaps you’re right. Maybe we are dissecting a casual social affair a little too much. But then again I do wonder, what do you make of the 45% statistic?
I think the survey is talking about talking to strangers, which is always difficult. I’ve been a salesman several different times, including car sales, and it’s hard to connect with a stranger. But it isn’t a skill one needs to learn.
What would make you approach a woman you’ve never met or spoken to? It could only be her looks, and she knows that. So instantly you’re shallow, to say the least.
Don’t do that. Just get involved in things that are coed in life; work, church, clubs, theater, classes, you name it. Natural socialization. Be yourself. Have fun doing things, then look around at the people having fun with you. And just talk to them.
Let’s stop idolizing pick-up artists. Because they ARE creepy.
https://datepsychology.com/risk-aversion-and-dating/
I did some digging and according to this. 77% of women 18 - 30 want to be approached more. I don’t know about pick up artists. But I wonder if a respectful way of approaching women could in fact be taught.
Maybe. I’m not in that age group and the women that age who I know do not express any desire to be approached randomly. But I think it’s always going to feel odd to be asked out by someone you don’t know, and maybe there’s a disconnect between who they might want to be doing the asking, and who is.
I will agree our society is missing both physical non-sexual connection (hugging, etc) and good conversation that might lead to connection, small talk is a skill not a talent. But the answer is NEVER to impose these things on an unwilling participant. So one of the skills that need to be taught is discernment or empathy - being aware of the people around you, reading the signals. Listening, not just talking in what you think is a generic respectful way.
Whoa, how is it shallow to be attracted to someone’s looks? What a weird take. We’re not doing married at first sight.
Yeah, there’s something about a person you find attractive and you want to get to know them better.
You’ve found your fun circle and talked them up and down. Now how do I pick one to pursue romantically? Can’t do how attractive I find them because that’s apparently shallow. Do I try a random lottery? Or the order I first met them?
It’s shallow to be attracted to someone ONLY because of their looks. Which is what is happening when you approach a woman you’ve never met because you like her looks.
You have a fun circle… and you are going to “PICK ONE” to get involved romantically with?
My brother, that ain’t how it works.
It’s shallow to stay in a relationship with someone only because of their looks. You can be attracted to any adult for any reason despite what any sanctimonious third-party says. Maybe you are demisexual but you don’t get to prescribe propriety for other people anymore than heterosexuals do.
And, yes, that is how it works in most place when the conversation was and still remains about approaching women romantically. You say “hmm, this one vibes with me the most so I’ll try to date her exclusively”. Unless y’all agree to be polyamorous.
I’ll apologize if you were just throwing in a suggestion about how to just make friends into an unrelated topic.
But I’m losing motivation to continue.
That’s a shit take. If you don’t know the person and don’t have anyone that knows the person, that means you shouldn’t approach them?
It’s perfectly normal to find someone attractive. You can then learn to know the person and both can decide what to do of that relationship.
What is not acceptable is being insistent when the person says no, and breaching boundaries without getting consent.
Approach anyone you want. But if you’re cold calling you’ve got some hurdles to clear.
Agree. This kind of thing only ever seems to come up in regards to to heterosexual dating and it really imo diminishes the entire whole complex humans that are on both sides of the hypothetical interaction. You’re not talking to ~A Woman~* you’re talking to a person, who might or might not like you depending on 8374684 possible factors about the situation or their/your personality.
Women have been complaining in popular media for decades about random dudes approaching them and asking them out. How is it a surprise that the trend is dying out? It’s clearly something that most women don’t enjoy to begin with.
Ya it sounds like it’s at a good thing it’s falling out of fashion from what I’ve heard from women. The problem is that it just being replaced with dating apps, so we as a society just need to find something to replace it with that’s not so packed and sold lol.
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I can speak from personal experience only, but bars also don’t really tend to be the place go for that as much anymore either, women tend to want to go and have fun there and feel just as bothered by being hit on (again this is only my personal experience from myself and men/women in my life). My experience with singles nights is that it is predominantly men, by a wide margin and that puts the women that go in a bad spot again. I’m just really unsure of where the proper place is anymore. Outside of dating apps which even those seem to be more of an annoyance to people inundated with messages, it seems you just have to stumble across a new friend group and find someone there.
It feels like an overwhelming effort for both sides at this point and casual interactions are becoming increasingly rare
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I’m not sure what kind of person you think I am bud, but yes, I do know how to have healthy interactions with women. My original statement is still valid to my experiences. Most of my time spent at bars was with an SO and her friends since it’s not my scene. People go there mostly to have fun and hang out, usually with their friends. While somewhat open to random people interactions it’s still not what it used to be 10 years ago or even before then
How do you think they might respond to being approached by bears?
Don’t know how old your father is, but at least among Gen X women, creepy men absolutely have been part of the discussion. It just wasn’t a public discussion until much more recently. Hell, the fake phone number thing goes back to landlines.
We’re still at a point of significant cultural change in gender relations, and until an equilibrium point is reached, there’s going to be apprehension about approaching others. To that end, it’s important that we keep small gaffes made in good faith as social misdemeanors (to allow for opportunities to correct behavior) and not career-ending incidents. It only takes a quick browse of social media discussing one of these incidents to see why said apprehension exists.
That said, I still don’t think we’re having enough conversations about consent around positions of authority and social hierarchy in general. Too many people don’t understand that being nice to someone when you’re on the clock isn’t implied consent for continued interaction with that person off the clock. That’s the light stuff; it can go all the way to gross stories about cops and women. It all stems back to authority and power imbalance. This might be more of an issue in the US than elsewhere; I think ideals of “equality” and “social mobility” are so ingrained in our culture that some Americans don’t have the social intelligence around the very real stratification that exists at the workplace and elsewhere.
Fear of rejection is a whole other problem that likely stems from everyone having more anxiety now. I was around a bunch of people in their late teens/early 20’s a lot more than usual the past couple years and holy crap. I thought my social anxiety was bad. I don’t know how these kids are going to function.
OP didn’t really bring up trying to pick up your work colleagues, I think that’s pretty universally a bad idea, though it certainly happens. The risk of consequences is absolutely going to be high in a professional setting
Not just talking about work colleagues, also client or customer relationships.
I mean, clients and customers all fall under the same umbrella as work colleagues, they’re all professional relationships
There is very little positive guidance, just a sea of don’ts, usually worded as absolutes. And a lot of divisive “gender war” BS from all sides. Really not surprising.
For positive guidance, here’s my approach in bars:
- Casual environment. Preferably full of people, it’s safer for both.
- Good hygiene, and clothes that show self-care. You don’t need to LARP as rich, but don’t pop up with a spaghetti-stained T-shirt either.
- Find some excuse to start a conversation. Plenty of times I’ve approached women outright saying “hey, I’m drinking alone and up to a chat. Are you waiting for someone?” (implied: “is it OK for me to sit with you?”)
- Offer a drink. Make sure that the waiter/waitress brings it, don’t bring it yourself.
- Find some topic that both of you enjoy to chitchat about. Avoid divisive ones.
It works well enough here in Latin America to break the ice.
Important: be assertive but don’t be pushy. It’s fine to show interest, it’s not fine to insist. If you notice that she’s uncomfortable with your presence, just leave. And some people will be only up for the chat, but won’t be willing for anything sexy or romantic, that’s fine too as long as you don’t push boundaries.
Offer a drink. Make sure that the waiter/waitress brings it, don’t bring it yourself.
When you specifically say this, I get it…but that thought would have never run through my mind in the moment.
PERFECT advice! Much love.
be assertive but don’t be pushy
I think a lot of young men won’t do the former in fear of being judged as the later. Sorry guys, women want assertive men, not twerps. The vast majority of women want a man who can make a decision and execute.
Know the age old meme where a man asks a women where she wants to eat and she hems and haws, can’t decide? Guys! YOU make the decision and present it to her. Hopefully you learned something about what she likes. Maybe you know a place she’s never been to? (That’s a great choice!)
“Dinner tonight? We’ll go to La Hacienda. Ever been there?”
And then judge her reaction. If you’re not too far off, they usually jump! People have a hard time hiding negative reactions. If she doesn’t go all in?
“(laugh) You don’t look like you’re not loving it. OK, we’ll try $restaurant.”
Or maybe she presents you with two wardrobe options before going out. Pick one, and be assertive. Even if you don’t care one way or the other.
“That one! That will look great on you!”
No thanks.
I’m not interested in playing those games.Basic human interaction is now “games”. Talking to people in ways they understand and react positively to is now a “game”.
Ever heard of 4chan? Head over there, you’ll fit right in.
if you’re following a script to optimize the outcome then yes, you’re playing games.
I value authenticity and honesty even if suboptimal/inconvenient.
Dunno, maybe that’s just my autism showing.Also, i don’t appreciate you calling me names.
At the grocery store? Lol no
At the bar, if you’re hot sure
So with the exception of attractive people, you would say it’s an out of date norm?
Define attractive.
I couldn’t find the clip, but look up Jamie Hyneman’s definition from the drunk goggles episode of myth busters. Symmetry, no blemishes, age, health.
But I think the fear or social consequences is a relatively new construct.
Rejection and social consequences have absolutely been part of the game, pretty much forever. If I had to wager, what’s different now is that young people spend time online that has replaced irl time, which has “upped the stakes” for irl interactions in their minds. They also just haven’t been as conditioned to being rejected irl and learning to move on.
I say all this as an elder Millennial who employs quite a few 20-somethings, and who has several 20-something nieces/nephews
There’s a lot hinging on the definition of “approach a woman in person” here, but the general conclusion of men being afraid of being labelled a creep tends to hold true in the people I know.
I have a friend who made moves on a mutual friend. As far as I know, he didn’t do anything egregious. Farthest either said he went was putting his arm around her shoulder on a couch after she came back to his place with him alone to watch something after they had been hanging out and flirting most of the day. Both say he stopped as soon as she made it clear she wasn’t interested (okay, hand off, I’m going to ramble like a nerd about this show because I legitimately wanted to show you it on top of anything else that might happen). She refused to attend anything where he would be present for over a year and had some very strong opinions about just how much of a womanizing creep he was.
So I’ve seen this sort of thing first hand.
But I think in general throughout time, guys generally didn’t go up to a complete strangers and ask them out.
I approached my wife in person in a casual setting without any ulterior motives. We were both at a mutual friend’s college graduation celebration. I knew precisely two people there, and they were chatting with other people. I had already exhausted small talk with most of the older family members of the graduate. I saw a woman off to the side not looking sure what to do with themselves and decided to try and start up a conversation. Maybe we could be awkward together. We ended up glued to each other keeping a conversation going for the rest of the event. Realized that night back home that I wanted to date her, and spent time checking out her facebook and talking to mutual friends to learn more about her before I asked her out via text. I even tried to make that casual, as I was inviting her to join me at a small local theater performance I was already going to either way, and dinner beforehand if she was interested. I didn’t call it a date, just “hey I’m doing this thing that seems like something you’d enjoy, want to get dinner beforehand and come with?”
She was the roommate of someone in my friend group, and I was told in no uncertain terms by our mutual friends that if I screwed it up or hurt her they would hurt me.
So… yeah. Not going to flirt with a complete stranger for fear of being maced, or being socially ostracized by being labelled something like a creeper. Intense hesitation to date within or (in the case of my wife) on the periphery of my social groups lest I damage something.
After the show, I was so direct with my now wife about what I was looking for that she had to tell me to slow down, because if we had a relationship some of those things wouldn’t only be up to me. And I told it to her saying “Look, I don’t want to make ultimatums, but I don’t want to waste either of our time, or for things to get serious only for some core incompatibility to come up and leave us both hurt. If any of this is a deal breaker, let’s get it out in the open now and we can continue as friends, because you’re really cool and I’d hate to miss out on that just because things couldn’t work out romantically.”
Ultimately things did work out, but it definitely wasn’t the type of “courtship” people think of, or is shown in media.
My parents didn’t meet as complete strangers either. Most people I know in relationships didn’t.
She was the roommate of someone in my friend group, and I was told in no uncertain terms by our mutual friends that if I screwed it up or hurt her they would hurt me.
Kind of like the dad with the shotgun trope ;)
Anyway thanks for the contribution. It’s interesting. I’m starting to question whether this “norm” of approaching women out of the blue was ever “in of date” in the first place.
I’ve noticed less interactions between strangers in general. I think there is a general anxiety issue and a fear of conversations going south/ people getting aggressive. Whether or not that’s rational idk.
Personally, from puberty through most of high school, I never approached any girls because I never had to–in my social setting it was totally normal and acceptable for girls to ask boys out, and I guess I was approachable enough, despite not being very popular, to get asked a fair amount. Yet I still had this culturally inherited concept that it should be me who was doing the asking, or at least learning how to do it. So I struggled with this a lot in my teenage years… part of the problem was that I also didn’t have the stereotypical physical attraction to women, but a more personality-based one, so a lot of time was wasted trying to convert close platonic friendships into romantic relationships (maybe that works for some people, but not in my experience).
Ultimately, the woman I married was someone I approached without knowing her beforehand, but only after like weeks of making very mutual, not at all creepy eye contact walking back and forth on the same paths in the music center of our college campus. I think that’s sort of the bare minimum: some signs of shared context, some shared interest or hobby, some smoke signals indicating mutual attraction. And for a minute I still thought maybe we were meant to be just friends, but obviously I was wrong, and part of how I know that is the way we met: with clear physical attraction established. This was all before dating apps, and I think I can see their appeal from that perspective; they reduce the uncertainty about “what kind of relationship is this going to become” to some extent.
Anyways, though, I’m pretty sure that I didn’t have to put myself through the suffering of trying to “be a man” and build up the confidence to ask women out, because I was lucky to have a milieu in which they could comfortably take the lead. Heck, my wife might have been the one to break the tension eventually if it wasn’t me. What I do regret, for sure, is the platonic friendships I lost with women during that phase in which I felt I was “supposed” to be converting them into girlfriends. The kind of reasoning that draws a direct line from changes in who is doing the asking out (for a variety of reasons) to male loneliness is really not helping any young men who are similarly confused.
I approached a woman in a bar once back around 2009. after that it was nothing but tinder, I’ve got no clue how to figure out if a woman is interested in person.
I think it IS getting out of date. It seems to me the modern approach is to contact the woman in a friendly manner without asking her out on a date, which is mostly a more comfortable situation for both sides and can lead to a date in the future if both sides feel like there’s chemistry there.
The idea that a stranger cold approaching a woman was a significant factor in couplings is quite overblown. Most couples met through some sort of social grouping such as family, friends, religious gatherings, work, etc. This doesn’t mean it didn’t occur, just that it wasn’t an overall productive method of finding a partner. As time has gone on, society has advanced to a place where women are too not only discuss openly about the problematic behaviors exhibited in cold approaches, but also be heard. The affect on young men is that most will not approach a woman due to the already present fear of rejection and the now added fear of being perceived as a creep.
It is not necessarily a bad thing that this is going away, but the large issue that should be addressed is the loss of a community many (I’m speaking for the US here) face. Many young people are frustrated with the dating scene and their inability to find partners. A community not only allows for opportunities to meet potential partners but a framework to enforce (through social pressure) acceptable standards of conduct to ensure all parties are safe and comfortable. I don’t have the answers, but we as a society need to figure it out. There has been unfortunate trend of this frustration driving young people to extremist ideology. This has been most prominent with young men, as is historically the case, but it is starting to take root with some young women as well.
From what I understand it’s the fear of being viewed as a creep to approach a woman out of the blue.
You are the Nazi.
Why does it have to be one or the other? I’ve always had good luck just talking to people as people. You can’t go into a new conversation with anybody with such high expectations. Just chill, be yourself, and see where it goes. If anything making a new friend is never a bad thing.
