Former Kentucky swimmer Riley Gaines was among more than a dozen college athletes who filed a lawsuit against the NCAA on Thursday, accusing it of violating their Title IX rights by allowing transgender woman Lia Thomas to compete at the national championships in 2022.
The lawsuit, filed in U.S. District Court in Atlanta, details the shock Gaines and other swimmers felt when they learned they would have to share a locker room with Thomas at the championships in Atlanta. It documents a number of races they swam in with Thomas, including the 200-yard final in which Thomas and Gaines tied for fifth but Thomas, not Gaines, was handed the fifth-place trophy.
Thomas swam for Pennsylvania. She competed for the men’s team at Penn before her gender transition.
Thomas was the first openly transgender athlete to win a Division I title in any sport, finishing in front of three Olympic medalists for the championship. By not making the final, the lawsuit mentions that Florida swimmer Tylor Mathieu, who was not a plaintiff, was denied first-team All-American honors in that event.
Other plaintiffs included athletes from volleyball and track.
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The Economist looked at and has a perfectly reasonable solution.
The short version is that gender may be fluid, but biological sex isn’t.
They propose two categories, biological female by sex and Open.
Kinda like it used to be.
The short version is that gender may be fluid, but biological sex isn’t.
It literally is (since people change sex everyday), and even if we pretend it isn’t, it’s blatantly not binary either, but a spectrum, and a socially constructed one at that.
All this “perfectly reasonable” solution is, is more of the same old ignorant transphobia, with some added misogyny for good measure.
How many times today did you change your Y chromosome to X or vice versa?
That’s not reasonable it’s just a new form of segregation. Stating that we (trans women) are both equal to women but seperate which has been ruled unconstitutional and discriminatory.
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How is that solving the problem at all?
Men tend to have a physical advantage, and that is just biology.
But the problem with thus line of thinking is it opens a massive can of worms. Like for example all of the best long distance runners in the world come from a handful of tribes in Kenya, where they have thinner calves and ankles than other people. And this is statistically a much bigger advantage than the advantage trans women get. So should we ban Kenyans from competing since they have a biological advantage too?
Or even simpler stuff like height. Tall people have advantages in so many sports. So if you’re only 150cm because of your biology, you’re never going to be a pro basketball player for example. Does that mean we need to do something about this, since it’s so unfair?
I think you’ve nailed it here. There is so much focus on the genetic advantage a trans woman has in women’s sports, but at the elite level genetics already plays a determinative role. It’s in every sport. I saw a video the other day on powerlifting. Sure, we all know that weight classes are important, but this video was about femur length. The guy with the world record for squat, in his weight class, has very short femurs, and the video showed the physics of how this gives him a purely genetic advantage in the squat over others who have trained just as hard and are just as strong. At the elite level where everyone is training hard and has good diet and coaching, the difference between winning and losing often comes down to genetic variation. It’s not just purely physical advantages either. At the elite level, psychological fitness is also critical to success and psychology is also profoundly influenced by both genetics and early childhood development, which are not under the individual athlete’s control. On top of that there are economic disparities. On average, a person from a very poor family is much less likely to end up as an elite level skier or hockey player.
There are so many genetic and social factors that contribute to success in elite sports that I don’t think the women who are complaining about trans athletes have much credibility.
This is why I’ve felt that if we are going to stop trans women from competing with women, it’s time to do away with the gender aspect of sport where possible. The Paralymics maintain ratings for the severity of disability that an athlete is overcoming. Why couldn’t we do similar for natural ability in other sport, not unlike weight classes?
It’s all very hypothetical, but with a perfect system we’d be seeing ability bands of athletes with a high confidence that the only difference between competitors is the effort and strategy that they put into their sport, rather than any kind of natural advantage. Men and women would occasionally compete together and it’d be great.
So just get rid of women’s sports?
In my hypothetical setup, I guess so? Are you concerned that no one would engage with anything less than the ‘top class’ of ability which would mean in many sports women would mostly be marginalised? Because it’s a fair concern
I have no clue how to resolve this
I think the first step needs to be asking why we do this and what we want. We have women’s sports because (cis) women generally cannot compete sufficiently with (cis) men. But what are we trying to accomplish? I would say in middle school and high school our goal should be inclusivity. So trans men and women should be able to compete in their identified genders.
On the other hand in college and the Olympics inclusivity is probably not as important for adults competing at some of the highest levels. So I am more willing to accept some limits, but I’m certainly not well versed enough to know where to draw that line.
It’s very easy to resolve, most kids that participate in sports are themselves (shockingly) also kids and will not have gained any advantage if allowed to transition early enough. Even a year or two of puberty is going to shed away very quickly.
(And leave us older trans people who are no longer teenagers who might have gone through a full puberty to have that advantage not participate in sports, and leave kids alone to transition and participate in their chosen gender.)
Either way this is a problem that resolves itself if trans people are allowed to accept and be themselves when they figure it out, which would be a lot more possible if people actually took the time to understand us.
Also genetic advantages like Micheal Phelp’s lungs and body have always been a part of sports. So if we happen to want to play sports we’re still women playing sports with a genetic disadvantage in every way that matters to us like having babies. (sports are the last thing on most of our minds)
Either way stop making trans people the center of your political battles. We just want to live without you fucking up our lives. We aren’t anything that matters to the vast majority of instances. We are the rare exception. Go figure out that they’d rather you argue about us than about the actual issues like health care, abortion, union rights, civil rights, etc.
Letting kids transition before they even reach puberty is a great way to potentially ruin their lives forever. Kids are so impressionable and change faster than the wind. They instantly succumb to peer pressure and 99% of the cases have no clue what they want because they are kids. They don’t have a lot of life experience.
I know only one case where I knew that transition would have been normal at any age for him. When we were kids it would have been 100% impossible. Now we are older farts and he still didn’t transition, he doesn’t want and would have regretted the decision if he would have had the possibility to do it as a kid.
Transition as a kid should be nearly impossible and you should be put through an infinite amount of tests and visits to the doctor. Reach an age where you can be considered an adult, go ahead and schedule an appointment and transition away. Do as you please.
It’s not that they shouldn’t be allowed to compete, I think there needs to be a greater restriction on who and how they compete.
This whole thing started because of Lia Thomas who was a competetive male swimmer from the age of 5 until they completed hormone treatment at the age of 22.
They had the benefit of male puberty and trained as a male. That’s going to make a difference.
Now if you take a child who has not yet hit puberty, put them on blockers, then allow them to transition with hormones and surgery, you’re going to end up with a completely different athelete.
It’s good that the sports organization recognizes that trans atheletes need to be on hormones for a set period of time before being allowed to compete, but there needs to be a policy addressing WHEN they started the hormone treatment.
Starting after puberty has completed should be a non-starter, or at the very least a different category of competition.
I have a name you should look up: Caster Semenya. She has too much natural strogens but she was born a girl. And the same kind of claims were made against her. “She is not a real woman”, “she is actually a man”, …
My understanding is that if the athlete is correctly undergoing Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) the biological advantage is significantly reduced if not removed. I am sure there are exceptions though.
Edit: Everything below
After looking through some studies it seems like Trans fem athletes do maintain some advantage, or atleast the current wait time is not enough for the edge to be eliminated.
Best example I could find https://www.bmj.com/company/newsroom/current-treatment-period-may-be-too-short-to-remove-competitive-advantage-of-transgender-athletes/
I mean, the question is what’s fair both to trans women and cis women. Competing against competitors with an advantage and being excluded are both unfair. Absolutely eliminating advantage isn’t the standard that minimizes unfairness, it’s a balancing act between competing interests.
I’m not sure sports have found exactly the perfect balance, and it may vary a bit by sport, but it doesn’t seem to be wildly off in favor of trans women.
Here’s the thing: who cares? Like okay, lots of people care, but why? Why cant trans athletes compete? What wound does anyone suffer?
This debate is asinine.
Fuck it, let’s just abolish competitive sport until people can calm the fuck down about their stupid games. Maybe we could make the world better in general if we funnel some of that sporting money into something that isn’t totally pointless.
lol you point out that the amount of money put into sports could be used for other things. You suggest making the world better as a possible use case.
There’s nothing incorrect about any of this yet people got angry with you. It’s weird.
For some reason it’s a really contentious topic.
I support trans rights. I also acknowledge that this specific issue materially affects almost no one, and yet it’s one of the flashpoints of some of the most rabid transphobia. And I also acknowledge that given the current regressive laws that are taking effect, it would be infinitely more constructive to focus on… I don’t know, access to healthcare or anti-bullying policy.
Basically no one gets to be a professional athlete. Leagues have not grown in proportion to the population, and even before that, the dream of being a professional athlete was very unrealistic. Professional sports are inherently classist in that you must have consistent access to equipment, facilities, and a bonkers amount of time to devote to a (for almost everyone who tries) fruitless pursuit.
Nothing is better because of professional sport and basically no one gets to do it anyways. It seems like a deliberately divisive issue that is basically meaningless.
On the other hand, this specific reaction seems maybe like people are mad that college is stupidly unaffordable and athletics are a way to access college. Seems like post secondary education reform might be the better solution but wtf do I know.
On this subject I’ve had mix feelings.
I get their point and I do not see this as a fair thing. Now that more people are coming out or transitioning should they try to make a different league or something?
Yeah this one is a mixed bag. Biological males can absolutely have an advantage in certain things. Simple as that. I mean look what happened with the Williams sisters.
This one is an absolute mess of a thing to have to figure out and, at the end of the day, I’m glad I’m some dude on the sidelines and not having to make the call on this one lol.
I feel the same way. I strongly support one side of this story, but the other side also has a valid point. So even when things turn out how I think it should be, it still has a nasty after taste.
I think we should preemptively start a Go Fund Me for the poor guy who has to make the choice.
Correct me, but we are yet to see a trans person winning anything or achieve a significant record anywhere. IIRC hormones do a big effect on anything but bones frame. And we are still talking potentional damage for M2F transitioners only, not F2M athletes or NB athletes.
Honestly, I think the whole perception of international competitive gendered sports like Olympics shall die. Sportsmanship on that level is toxic, many use drugs, costumes and hacks to somehow gain the edge. I see sports as a motivation for regular people to think of their health, not a gambling platform or a thing to boost national pride by injecting ‘winning horses’ with steroids, inhalers, whiskey.
Trans problem in sports is not a problem of trans people who do sports but another reason to redo sports and our perception of them.
Gendered sports dying means sports for biological women dying and sports for biological men being basically unaffected.
Something tells me competitive sports aren’t just going to die out because some of us struggle to accept testosterone is a steroid and gives an unfair advantage versus women.
Or they could seperate based on something other than gender?
Like in basketball a 6ft5 woman is probably going to out perform a 5ft5 man even though the man has the testosterone advantage.
Since car analogies always work, consider NHRA or NASCAR.
“I may look like an F1 Ferrari, but I identify as a rule-constrained Chevy.”
The one joke.
Wtf are you talking about?
Yep, I know. It can be countered by encouragement of girla\women, but IIRC they want their own league in many sports due to difference in physique and toxic male challengers. Thus I think it’s not mostly about division but maybe the competitive factor?
…right, it’s totally because only men are toxic, no man has ever been mocked for “losing to a girl” due to that same societal toxicity before nor are women’s sports surprisingly rife with hair pulling/scratching/etc
Pretty sure it’s almost entirely the difference in physique that otherwise trivializes women as competitors on any serious level?
I can only talk about toxicity in men, aince I’m one and was in their changing rooms. That’s a pleasure of a public forum we can discuss that for we can see other perspectives.
Seeing sports as a casual way to get exercise is fine on a personal level if you aren’t an elite athlete, but you can’t force that perspective on millions of people who enjoy competing or watching elite athletes compete. It’s a weird take to want to rewire sports to accommodate a very small minority of people, most of whom wouldn’t even agree with that perspective.
I play sports casually, but I play really competitively. I love competition.
There were abolitions of slavery when most holding voting rights could lose something in the process. Sports are not even close. Reformating them can come hurtless if the focus is pushed somewhere else, like local friendly competitions where there’s no stakes. Americans like their local teams at baseball and football, why it’s impossible to limit them to make regular youth the primal category participating in that, so communities in reverse get more involved, not suoerstars?
Just because you don’t understand the value of a thing doesn’t mean it has no value. Casually tossing aside one of the oldest human institutions is foolish.
We tossed a lot of them out. It shows itself as incompatible with current european culture and cause weird gimmicks to happen. Maybe it’s the time to put it down too?
So what are you proposing exactly? You want to reform sports but what does this actually mean?
Yeah we tossed a lot of them out, and then had a century of world war and genocide.
Stop trying to see yourself as an expert in culture, and start trying to see yourself as a student of it.
Many sports throughout history were only segregated by gender once and because a woman fought to participate and beat the men.
This is all about the bruised egos of bigots. If they’d come 5th against a cis woman they’d be annoyed at themselves and try to do better next time, but coming 5th against a trans woman hurts because they see trans people as inferior (yet also superior, sound familiar? that’s because it’s one of the points from the fascism checklist), so them coming 5th is clearly her fault, and she must be persecuted to give her, and other trans people, the message that they aren’t welcome.
There’s actually already been trans women that were setting new records, far surpassing what was previously set. And because to be trans is too just identify… Well this happened https://nypost.com/2023/03/30/male-powerlifter-enters-womens-event-breaks-record/
NYP is not a very good source. But either way - maybe there should be a term limit for their transition or something? I don’t know. Abandoning sport competitions as they are now altogether seems easier than adjusting the time they eat hormones.
I mean by all means feel free to Google the name and post any link you want. I just grabbed the first thing that popped up.
You stand corrected.
There are plenty of instances of M->F transpeople completely obliterating the competition.
This article shows one that I overlooked. Have there been plenty already?
should they try to make a different league or something?
It’d be cool if there were leagues based solely on physical capability, but most women would be in the lower leagues then complain about not being seen as equal to men.
This will ENSURE that next time Riley Gaines will get First instead of Fifth! The ONLY thing holding her back was Lia Thomas being TRANS!
Testosterone is one hell of a drug: “After 24 months of testosterone suppression, bone mass is generally preserved. The review states that no study has reported muscle loss greater than 12% with testosterone suppression even after three years of hormone therapy.[75] It found that trans women are in the top 10% of females regarding lean body mass and possess a grip 25% stronger than most females.[75]”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_people_in_sports
The physical differences because of testosterone are why we have separate competitions for men and women. Imo it’s not very fair to lifelong women, to let new women compete against them, if those new women have significant physical advantages because of higher testosterone levels in their past. If the differences had been negated over time by hormone therapy, then I’d consider it fair, but the advantages are clearly not negated and they are quite significant.
Just do a ranking system instead of segregating.
In 100m freestyle, the mens world record is 5 full seconds faster than the women’s.
Mens 8th place at the last Olympics was 3.6 seconds faster than the women’s world record.
This isn’t even close enough to consider ranking. There isn’t a control mechanism like in golf where the tee position has moved.
Women’s sports should exist. For sole purpose of woman hood and solidarity. They’re loosing sight of that, and are stupidly focused on reasons that they “lost.”
No trans woman performs at the highest level with no effort involved. Their hard work is just as valid as any one else’s. So Yao Ming has a physiological advantage over every other man who plays the game. So what???
Edit: sorry yao
No straight male would be able to perform at the highest levels of female sports with no effort. The issue is that few, if any, women can compete at the highest levels with men regardless of how much effort they put in. So I’m not sure that it’s a good argument that simply because a trans woman would still need to work to get there, that they should be allowed.
There are biological differences. I’m not taking a stand on whether or not trans female athletes should be able to compete with biological females. I’ve listened to a lot of discussions about this and there doesn’t appear to be any good metric and so I’m on the fence with it.
I like this
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I mean, at least in swimming something to be said about anatomical male vs anatomical female pelvices. Males pelvices are taller and have a more limited range of motion, whereas females are the opposite in both.
Effectively, this means males overall are more capable at just a normal kick in a swim stroke, because their pelvices are fairly locked in their motion and less muscles are required to stabilize the movement. On the otherhand, females can be more capable in things like frog kicks.
While biological tests are fine, someone’s sex does determine their bone structure, which can, like in swimming, affect performance. I’m sure there are other examples, but I swam so that’s my only experience.
Because if they have gone through puberty as a man the physical advantages of height, muscle mass, muscle density etc. conferred upon them because of testosterone and other male hormones do not fully diminish even years after those hormones are fully suppressed.
It’s tricky because anabolic steroids are banned as performance enhancing drugs, but natural testosterone from being born male also has an anabolic effect, so you can argue it’s the equivalent of being given steroids during puberty and then waiting years for the current hormone levels to return to normal as an adult.
this is also like arguing anything outside of “insert level” of hormones here is not acceptable, and therefore shouldn’t be allowed.
Shit’s complicated and hard to deal with.
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Organisation x holds a competition. They stipulate the rules for the competition. You don’t agree with the rules. You don’t have to participate. You are also allowed to express you displeasure with organisation x’s decisions. Maybe organise your own competitions. Maybe yours will be better. The sky is the limit!
I will say; I don’t care too much who these people compete with or against. But I do support their right to complain about it.
Organisation x holds a competition. They stipulate the rules for the competition. You don’t agree with the rules. You don’t have to participate.
So you’re cool with “whites only” sports? Cause that’s what you’re proposing.
I’m no bigot, but I support bigots’ rights to be bigots!
(you are the 11th person sharing a table with 10 nazis)
I totally agree with this!
I remember how bummed out I was when they didn’t allow Miis in my local smash competition, but I didn’t sue them for it!
Their event, their rules. That’s literally how it goes in the e-sports arena. I don’t see why it would be any different anywhere else.
State universities are public, not private, and college sports award state money in the form of scholarships. It’s discriminatory to exclude people from participating so I don’t see what they can do except include trans athletes in men’s or have a separate trans category but good luck with that.
Ahh, but we shouldn’t be mixing academia with sports.
Injustices everywhere! But it’s the trans people who should pay!
Problem being is currently transgender people have less formalized options to participate in the field of sport than people with disabilities at this point where body types are way more variable. Imagine if you will a situation where no Smash competition, will allow you to ever pick up a controller because you are you… and you are getting closer to the issue as it exists.
At some point there exists a civil rights case that asks if a class of people are being allowed to reasonably participate in an aspect of society. Sports governing bodies at a National level require the sign on of a lot of people and it requires a lot of money to create a National level federation from scratch.
Imagine if you will a situation where no Smash competition, will allow you to ever pick up a controller because you are you
That’s hyperbole, though. There are competitions where trans people can participate, just like there are Smash competitions that allow Miis.
If these people aren’t satisfied with the host’s rules, they can join another event or host their own.
Have you ever tried to create an event that competes with the structures of other established events? Because it is exhausting and more likely to fail than succeed. People who compete in competition level events have to meter what money they spend to travel and a lot of the rigid rules of competition sport means of you don’t make one event you basically lose your ability to compete.
This whole “uh but it’s your problem to solve” attitude ignores the fact that to run and set up a competitive league you need a lot of people to sacrifice all the time they would be competing and participating to become full time event organizers and just hope against hope that other athletes will potentially sacrifice a portion of their travel funds and squeeze time out of their schedules to participate in a league that will offer no widespread accepted accolades for decades after it’s establishment.
And no, there isn’t that many events where trans people can participate. Even a lot of sports that do not have a sex based advantage have exclusive policies or total bans. Even in the ones that nominally allow trans people to participate there’s catch 22 clauses that place limitations that the organizations know sound inclusive on their face but make it nigh impossible for all but the athletes with extreme mental fortitude and can check a very narrow window of boxes to theoretically participate. Particularly in amateur and community and school related competition spaces oftentimes trans people are just seen as a logistical problem that it’s easier to just create bans for or allow other participants to drive them forcefully out by offering offer no protections against transphobic complaints.
What a lot of the problem is is that trans issues are not very well understood by the cis population at large. It’s very easy to dupe cis people into thinking something that isn’t explicitly a total ban because when you do not understand the actual psychological challenges of being trans you do not really understand when the barriers are solid. Like if you think “oh a trans person being forced to complete in the category of their birth sex until the age of 18” isn’t basically a complete way to eliminate participation of trans people in the sport - then you are missing some key knowledge about the intersection of transition physiology or key psychological and social factors.
A rule like that means first damn near no athlete will have the mental fortitude to make it that far and no scout will ever select them because either an early transition required for them to continue as an adult will eliminate them from competition between the ages of 16-18 or in the case of a masculinizing transition make it seem as though their advantage is unfair driving them to be eliminated via social prejudice.
“Oh just make your own competitions” ignores that sport is regimented as fuck and people who do sport do so at personal cost. People who do sport don’t do so out of the generosity of their own hearts. It just isn’t that easy. It’s literally easier to change the regulations of what pre-exista because otherwise you basically are just in exile from the community of the wider sport.
Why the fuck shouldn’t a trans person be allowed state money, lol, wat?
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Be democratic, let the athletes decide. I would trust their decision. Either they have decided to be bigots, I know it’s a cruel world it’s cruel I consider trans exclusionary people bigots. God forbid, they decide they don’t mind including trans woman because face it, who are the ones really suffering in this thing?
We’re talking about women’s sports. They are already a sub class. I’ll say it, if they want to be shitty, I’ll be shitty. No matter how many gold trophies or medals or accolades you achieve you’re competing in a sport that has handicapped you because of your gender.
Americans, you know this isnt really freedom right? The ability to only compete against biological women is not a right, nor are you entitled to a blue ribbon.
You know your country is this close to a dictatorship, right?
You right.
Regardless of where anyone sits on this topic, I need you to realize something that none of you are even aware of. By accepting the premise of the argument as “men are generally stronger than women,” you are immediately accepting that trans women are men. It doesn’t matter how you land the rest of your opinion. The fascists got you to accept their presupposition that trans women are just men.
I think we should defund all sports because it’s just bullshit and we should fund education and have that be competitive.
I mean, I agree with not spending as much on athletes cause they’re grossly overpaid. But to completely take away people’s way of lives if a bit too much. Let’s maybe try to make everyone happy
I guess that the premise that people approach this with is actually “women that went through puberty pre-transition are generally stronger than those who didn’t because of how their bodies developed through it”, but people are generally lazy and will say the sentence you typed, implying the one I did.
Their point is still valid, though badly executed throughout faulty wording.
sports are only gender segregated because men can’t handle losing to women.
imagine being so frightened by someone’s gender that you file a lawsuit over it
Imagine being so frightened by someone’s point you go out of your way to mischaracterize it.
Competing in sports is random and winning or losing against a trans person shouldnt bother anyone.
maybe i misunderstood it
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If there’s any real debate to be had, it’s along the lines of male hormones and penises. Should either be present in a place which essentially only exists for the purpose of keeping those things out?
They are. Every sporting governing body I’m aware of requires trans women to be on hormone therapy for a minimum of 2 years before they can compete in the women’s category. This is completely in line with the medical community’s research into how long it takes before the benefits of being biologically male are counteracted by the hormone replacement.
The debate has been had in the medical community and has been resolved. Now random people who never gave a fuck about women’s sports before think they should have input when they have no qualifications, just because they have prejudices.
