Toyota already admits that they are behind on their battery technology, despite having decades of opportunities to improve and innovate with their hybrid models.
Now they want to double down on their atrophy by effectively throwing their money away instead of investing in the future?
On the surface, this does not sound like a good plan for long term growth and profitability.
Someone told me they bought big into hydrogen powered vehicles. Seems they can’t let it go.
Japan has no lithium to mine. So hydrogen is the best option for them. While I understand this for Japan, there’s a big world out there where Toyota is a market leader… for now.
You are also missing the fact the Japan’s power grid is in a desperate need of repairs and improvements. Hydrogen won’t fix however it introduces some lower cost temporary fixes that can be quickly implemented. In the long term the correct solution would be to fix the grid but we both know if there’s a cheaper and easier solution what they’ll go with…
Lithium to my knowledge is not as abundant and very hard to recycle. There are a lot of chemical waste in all processes.
Sunk cost fallacy.
Yes, biggest car manufacturer, which also manufacturer of the most popular hybrid car in the world, doesn’t know what they are doing when they are making cars. Right. I’ll take your word for it.
You want me to ignore my own experience and all of the bad business decisions we’ve observed companies make throughout history because you want to be oppositional and edgy.
Also doesn’t help that you don’t know what a fallacy is. I recommend you have a look at Wikipedia.
Nokia was way more dominant in the phone market than Toyota in the automotive industry. Yet, when it was time to jump on the new technology that everyone else was jumping on (android), they fell into the sunk cost fallacy and stood by their own, outdated tech (symbian). That promptly got them bankrupt. Toyota may still change its course, but if they wait too long, they are going to end up just like Nokia did.
That’s a far better comparison than other offered. Nokia failed not because Symbian was outdated, but because they tried to have too firm of a grip on it and it didn’t evolve fast enough. But yeah, I can see that happening if Toyota decides not to share their tech with others and hydrogen doesn’t end up being wide spread as a result of it. Not sure if they’ll go bankrupt but still. Honda once almost did when they went all in on Wankel engines.
Meanwhile Toyota is giving people $40k to buy their Mirai.
They are giving discounts, not paying people to buy their car. It’s a big difference. Government is also giving subsidies for EVs and corn. Should we say government is paying you to buy corn?
But now hydrogen gas stations in California all closed down. So they sorta need to pivit
They have just released hydrogen internal combustion engine. This engine can burn gasoline, CNG or hydrogen. So transition with it would be super easy. But world is set on EVs which are not that great and a lot less cleaner than people seem to think. Mining for Lithium is a very chemically dirty process and there’s no abundance of it, especially not enough for everyone to switch to EV. Am thinking they realize this and are jumping over the hurdle early on, but are trying to push hydrogen into spotlight. More production means prices will drop and eventually it would get a lot cleaner to produce it as well.
That’s really not impressive. Lots of people converted their vehicles to run propane or NG during the 70s oil embargo. You can do it with pretty much the exact same piston engine.
BEVs are far better and yes cleaner.
More production means prices will drop and eventually it would get a lot cleaner to produce it as well.
Funny that you think this of hydrogen, but not of batteries. Given that I’ll say cheers.
Batteries are already being developed and advanced. I just don’t see why people think there can only be one technology. Even now we have multiple viable technologies and I see no reason why that can’t keep going on.
In the small chance you’re serious, because production of, transportation of, leakage of, and burning of gas, ng, or propane still pollutes. Hydrogen can technically technically be done cleanly but is still energy intensive, difficult to transport, difficult to store, difficult to distribute, difficult to store again in your car, and leaks along that whole path. It’s really not a good path. And for what purpose? So you can fill up in a few minutes (assuming the nozzle hasn’t frozen from use, look it up), forgetting that most people can charge their ev overnight meaning they start every day with a full tank.
BEVs and clean energy has a far, far easier and simpler path forward. Not to mention the development potential of batteries far exceeds that of hydrogen production (production only because there’s really not much that can be done for other parts).
If you want another solution it’s transit, ebikes, and trains.
I doubt I’m going to respond any further.
there’s no abundance of it, especially not enough for everyone to switch to EV.
That’s not true at all. There are 1.4 billion cars in the world now, while the lithium ores that are readily available for mining (22 million tons) were estimated to be enough for 2.8 billion cars a year ago. Twice the amount of cars existing today.
But since then, there was already another massive stockpile discovered in the US, that alone is bigger than that (20-40 million tons), so enough for another 3-5 billion cars. But there will surely be discovered new sites, now that we are actually, intensely looking for it. We have been looking for oil for more than a century now and are still discovering new reserves. Lithium will be the same.
Yes, world’s largest car manufacturer doesn’t know what they are talking about when they talk about car manufacturing. Or they realize battery powered vehicles are only a stop gap measure that doesn’t have long term feasibility and they are jumping over that step. They were amongst the first manufacturers of hybrid vehicles and still produce most popular hybrid. But no, Toyota admits they are behind on battery “technology”. You really have to stretch logic to get that argument going.
Kodak would like a word with you.
Most profitable car manufacturer too.
Toyota has invested heavily into hydrogen, and so are against electrification
Prius is one of the most popular selling Toyotas since it’s debut, either they’re just being obstinate about EVs or they are really invested to the gills on their Hydrogen fueled car lineup.
You would think at least one of their execs would have learned about the sunk cost fallacy in basic econ.
Honestly it’s quite amazing how prone we all are to falling for the old sunk cost fallacy, that fallacy and confirmation bias have to be the two most popular cognitive issues for us as a species.
One would think random person posting online would realize that biggest car manufacturer in the world knows a thing or two about car manufacturing. Especially considering the same manufacturer is behind worlds most popular hybrid car and a number of EVs. I’d also assume they would trust decades of accumulated data on battery sustainability, recycling and manufacturing but I suppose sitting in a computer chair googling is better. Here’s next term to google and learn about “Dunning-Kruger effect”.
Consumers like the Prius because of the addition of the battery and electric motor.
Toyota likes the Prius because it still contains and ICE engine, which they want to keep selling.
it reminds me of the big tobacco playbook when they put filters on cigarettes after people started realising they were not healthy…Toyota stuck a little battery next to their ICE engine and said ‘it’s healthy now!’ and people went with it…for like 30 years.
Or they realize batteries are not the way to go. I don’t know why people seem to think Toyota is the biggest car manufacturer in the world and are just acting like retards. They are not, and every move is calculated. They have decades of data in regards to battery servicing and duration, recycling, etc. They have the data.
I’d rather waste my money on a car from a maker with vision. This is in line with their move to TX. Too bad.
Can’t beat the reliability of a Toyota or Lexus hybrid. Nothing comes close.
JFC we need a carbon tax. All these posts claiming ICE is better than EV lol. Burning fossil fuels kills 250,000 people a year in the US alone. It’s a 25% efficient process. ICE engine has 2000 moving parts while EV has 20. ICE is 20x most likely to have a car fire than EV and far more deadly. This list goes on and on.
Well the problem is just what feels like a timebomb to many people. Like the Pinto was actually relatively safe for cars of it’s time and class, but because it created extravagant failures it because notorious for safety.
Fossil fuel fires are explosive. EV fires (which occur 20x less frequently) are slow and hard to put out but give you time to get out of the car. What are you trying to imply by using the word “time bomb”? Because that’s disingenuous.
I’m trying to imply what I said. Please reread what I said before calling it disingenuous. Explaining why people feel a certain way isn’t saying that feeling is correct.
We have a cap and trade system here in Washington which raised the price of gas by like 40¢. Unforgivable without a national one, that just incentivizes companies to go to more polluting states. Ironically (not really) the law in those states complain that we need to force China to emit less because manufacturing has moved over there because of their more lax standards.
That’s funny because I’d rather spend my credits on something other than a Toyota.
Corporate “indulgences”
Cars are the cigarettes of the transportation world and EVs are big oil’s new “light” or “low tar” option.
And you are bad at labeling things
Can someone explain what “credits” are like I’m 5? I read the article, but still don’t understand it.
Edit: Is it carbon credit subsidies from the gub’ment?
In this case, the US governance sets a target efficiency for vehicles (miles per gallon here in the US) and if a pant does not meet that overall efficiency, they have to pay. EVs are a bit odd because they have a miles per gallon equivalency. So if it is expected for them to have 50% by 2030 (50% cars at 100 MPGe and 50% at like 45 MPG(e)) but they out have 30%,they will have to pay a large fine. They are saying they are okay with that rather than ramp up EV production more quickly.
Thanks
Carbon credits are an absolute scam but EVs are also not going to get mass adoption and aren’t going to replace ICE cars until used EVs are a thing without needing to replace the battery for the price of a whole car. So I can see why Toyota wouldn’t be too interested in EVs, the tech for them isn’t there for global adoption and is still a niche market.
EVs already attained mass adoption. In Norway almost all new cars are EVs. Several countries are not far behind. Most countries are more suitable for EVs than Norway.
How are most countries more suitable for EVs than Norway? Norway’s hydro power and smaller size is pretty great for EVs.
The hydro power helps, sure. But Norway is big, cold, and sparsely populated.
Like Canada who doesn’t sell many EVs?
The density of EV drivers in BC in the last 5 years has sharply, noticeably increased.
BC has stupid cheap electricity, it’s a perfect candidate for EVs just like Norway.
It’s true. Definitely part of my equation.
I’m not sure about Norway but here in Estonia the vast vast majority of cars sold are used. New cars are rarely sold due to the price.
All cars were new cars once. If a majority of new cars are EVs, then it is only a matter of time before most used cars are as well.
It’s not (just) a matter of money. Even in China a third of new vehicles are EVs, and Estonia is much richer than China.
The problem is that replacing the battery in an EV costs as much as a new car which is something you need to do if it’s 10 years old.
Even if 1/3 of new cars sold is an EV that will take decades for any meaningful adoption since new cars are incredibly uncommon and affordable replacemt batteries don’t yet exist.
I don’t mind car makers making EVs but it seems like a pretty reasonable choice from Toyota not to enter that market yet.
You don’t have to replace the battery every 10 years. LiFePo cells can do more than 3000 cycles before going below 85% rated capacity. CATL has been making these cheaply for years.
Toyota has been actively sabotaging EV transitions for decades. Of course they’re against the thing they don’t want.
I can currently find exactly zero used cars with a LiFePo battery here. I looked around more and it doesn’t seem to be even used by any car brands that exist here so I have no way to check how expensive a replacement would be. I’m assuming there’s a reason it’s not used but I’m not going to dig into battery research over a lemmy post.
If those batteries solve all the issues leading to used EVs being feasible then that would be great in about a decade or two if they adobt that right now.
The only reason they are so expensive currently is because the demand is still quite new and the price you are quoting is ferrying the manufacturer who is incentivised to price it in such a way as to pay you towards buying a new car.
Go to an ICE manufacturer and ask for a new drivetrain and they will likely quote you parts and labour price that exceeds the value of the car.
Aftermarket support will continue to improve as the market continues to grow and mature. Give it another decade or so, and battery swaps/refurbishments will become as commonplace as ICE engine gasket replacements, while also being significantly cheaper.
Even as it stands now, ~10yo Teslas seem to have battery health at >80% (maybe due to over-provisioning?) and are sufficient to meet most commuter’s daily needs.
A car that’s made like a phone can suck my balls
EVs shouldn’t ever replace ICE cars, people should be able to buy whichever they like, the government needs to stay out of it.
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This deliberately misguiding title is as myopic as the news talking about Bitcoin “crashes”.
Ten years ago, the EV auto market share was under 1% and Bitcoin was worth 320 bucks.
Ten years later, 10% of cars are EVs, 30% of the car market will be pure EVs, more will be hybrids, bitcoin is worth 62,000 dollars.
2024 headlines: Bitcoin crashes again and Toyota won’t waste money on EVs.
They literally call their hydrogen car the future. Toyota has been trying, and is still avoiding making purely electric vehicles.
Of all their models, Toyota only sells one EV in the US. Your aspirational assumptions about Toyota are nothing more than that.
Not that there’s anything wrong with hydrogen cars, but they only add to my point.
Dumb headlines focusing on extremely short-term “setbacks” ignoring how rapidly things have progressed and are progressing from just a decade ago.
Do you think 2030 is 10 years away? In 10 years, it will be 2034 when most countries will require 100% of new vehicles to not have fossil fuel ICEs.
They are still stupidly pushing for hydrogen electric vehicles. That is just a BEV with an additional step.
Why are you upset about fcevs? If hydrogen works out, great, it’s a sustainable vehicle with tremendous potential.
If not and Toyota switches to a larger BEV catalogue, great, they’re sustainable vehicles with tremendous potential.
The numbers do not work for FCEVs unless fossil fuels are used which is what 100% of the hydrogen in the current supply line depends on. I know people like to think that we can just use the excess energy from wind farms or solar but that is nowhere near a viable solution.
Research into hydrogen vehicles is fine but it is a vast waste of resources for consumer vehicles. They have promise in other types of vehicles but it is silly to slow down investment in consumer BEVs to push for consumer FCEVs.
It was silly to slow down investment in EVs a hundred fifty years ago when they were developed, I’m perfectly willing to support people trying different potentially sustainable experimentats now that EVs have been established as the future
Let’s turn clean water — something already getting difficult to come by — into fuel! What could go wrong?
Is that where you think hydrogen comes from?
It’s literally the most abundant element in the universe, present in many forms in, at this point, practically infinite amounts.
Most of it is harvested from natural gas these days.
It’s where “green” hydrogen comes from — which everyone keeps promoting as the future. People claim “oh we can just split water using electricity from solar wind and nuclear”. Not considering that it takes a lot of energy to do that. Energy that you’d get better bang for your buck by putting into batteries.
Oh. Well that’s a silly distinction of them to make. Hydrogen is abundant and refining processes are constantly getting cleaner, especially these days, no worries.
[citation needed]
