I am one of the admins of Beehaw and I’m trying to get some feedback on our potential move.
Let’s start out with a little Beehaw history before judgements are passed, please.
A handful of us were beta testing Tildes when we decided to have discussions on a Discord server.
We decided that our ‘Northern Star’ or guiding principle would culminate as ‘Be Nice’ with purposefully vague/flexible interpretations. Our overall goal is to provide a safe space to disenfranchised persons.
We talked for a little over a year and some of our members became impatient. Then someone stepped in to suggest a couple of platforms that we could consider getting started with.
One of those platforms was Lemmy. None of us knew, at that time, anything about ActivityPub.
During the Reddit exodus (surrounding the API outcry and blackout), our instance exploded. We were, initially, crippled by the mass amounts of users seeking refuge.
Thankfully, someone stepped in and volunteered hundreds of hours of work to stabilize our instance and refine it further.
After many hours of talks, it became clear to us that our overall goal could be achieved outside of Lemmy/ActivityPub.
Right now, we feel that Lemmy and ActivityPub have downsides that are limiting us from achieving that goal.
You’ve already defederated lemmy.world and sh.itjust.works, so I don’t care
Came to say much of the same. If “be nice” is a guiding principal, defederation with a bogus reason then never refederating is a thing I’d like to see gone from the fediverse.
So don’t let the door hit ya on the way out
That’s where I’m at. They left the fediverse when they took the approach of aggressive defederation with everyone else. Them fully leaving is insignificant now
Why do you care what other instances think about it? I’m honestly asking and expecting an answer here. This isn’t a sassy question.
You built a wall and now you’re asking people outside of that wall what it feels for you to leave. Well, I’d care if I could see what’s inside the wall, but I can’t. I tried subscribing and it was impossible.
So why do you care what people outside of your wall think? Again, I expect an answer here.
To be honest, I probably wouldn’t notice. I don’t think I follow anything on Beehaw and I don’t see much content from there. I tried to join a while ago when I first joined Lemmy, but was never approved. I kind of thought it was already a pretty closed off community, so it wouldn’t really change my opinion much. It would be sad for your users who will probably not receive benefit they otherwise would, but if that’s what they want, then either you’ll provide it or someone else will.
Edit: Apparently I don’t see anything from you because my instance was already defederated by you. I guess that explains it.
As a lemmy.world user, I’m already essentially banned from there, so I wouldn’t notice either.
In the earlier days of lemmy.world, I really enjoyed participating in many of the Beehaw communities. It soured my taste from them when they banned us all without warning when 99% of us didn’t even do anything.
I don’t know that Lemmy is necessarily suitable for what Beehaw is trying to achieve with their walked garden.
Look, I get it…making a safe space is admirable and can be tricky. But initially putting Beehaw out as an open instance didn’t end up being the right move. Going to a different platform entirely like Discord or Tildes seems to make more sense for the intent.
Defederating Beehaw would not only weaken it as an instance, but remove its positive influence from the wider fediverse. The big platforms wield so much power and influence and money, the smaller upstarts need to connect as much as possible to stand a chance at relevance as a credible alternative. We’re all better together. I really hope you reconsider.
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It sounds like it is time to defederate. We’ll miss the instance but we understand why it must be done
I mean, the very fact that you’re asking this on a different instance is kinda your answer.
Beehaw isn’t relevant to the fediverse as a whole. I don’t see there being any downside (to the fediverse) to y’all staying federated, to y’all staying with lemmy as your forum but defederating totally, increasing the instances you’re defederated from, or abandoning the software for anything else.
Don’t take that wrong, I’m glad someone is willing to try the experiment y’all are doing, it’s a beautiful thing. It’s just that beehaw has never been relevant to the rest of lemmy. That was never the goal (as you said). I have an account there that I rarely use because it isn’t really part of the fediverse at all. Beehaw is its own thing that might as well not be connected.
I dunno that it’s a good use of resources to try a new forum solution, when lemmy is viable for that currently, but that’s a different subject than what you’re asking.
And, since your goals don’t include being a kind of example, nor existing as a beacon on the fediverse for people of like mind to find, I would say just defederate totally.
Right now, we feel that Lemmy and ActivityPub have downsides that are limiting us from achieving that goal.
Could you expand on this? How exactly does these things prevent you from Being Nice, if that’s the goal of your community?
Not OP but my guess would be moderation tools.
I don’t think you guys cared when you defederated from the rest of the fediverse and turned up your nose at everyone else. I’m not sure why you care now. You guys go and do your thing, but I don’t think you’re very relevant to the fediverse.
You speak very vaguely, and I don’t think you’re being fully honest with your reasoning, but by this point, I don’t think it really matters.
Without the loaded malice of some of these comments, sincerely, I forgot beehaw existed. It looked like the place to go during the migration and was constantly getting good word of mouth on all the Reddit move channels. Then the barrier to entry went up with the essay application, which was 100% fine as a decision, but obviously made it a hassle for the masses trying to find a home. Couple that with no open community creation, leaving no landing spot for niche communities and I went elsewhere.
But even after taking a shotgun approach and making accounts on multiple instances when stability and federation was still struggling, beehaw started defederating from everything. Again, 100% your decision. But the reasons were often blatantly showing that beehaw was not willing to engage in the learning process of this new interface with the rest of us.
So, again no malice, I literally forgot beehaw existed till seeing this post. So if your admins and users think you can achieve whatever elsewhere, I don’t see why you shouldn’t.
I think it’s honestly a good way for them to die out. They’re basically a niche of a niche of a niche at this point, and that’s unfortunately probably not the most sustainable thing long-term.
With that said, maybe they are fine with that.
After many hours of talks, it became clear that our overall goal could be achieved outside of Lemmy/ActivityPub.
Right now, we feel that Lemmy and ActivityPub have downsides that are limiting us from achieving that goal.
I have two questions.
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What are your long-term goals for your platform?
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What are the downsides to Lemmy/ActivityPub stopping you from reaching those goals?
Also to answer the main question I’d like for it to stay but at the same time, the last time I checked Beehaw had around 700-ish Monthly active users. That means there probably wouldn’t be that much of an impact on the general discourse of Lemmy more broadly.
That seems like enough to sustain a pretty big community on a private server even if about half of you left. So if you guys do decide to leave I wish you the best.
Beehaw’s long term goal is a curated safe space for neurotypical white people
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Beehaw seemed too fast and heavyhanded with defederating a while back. IMO, defederation is really a “last resort” style of option, not a “first response,” so Beehaw using it essentially as a “first response” to some of the bigger instances kinda told me that Beehaw wanted to be off on an island by itself. Like it wanted to be a private forum instead of a Lemmy instance.
I don’t miss Beehaw, and Beehaw disappearing from Lemmy wouldn’t matter to me, because as far as I am concerned it kinda already did that.
The purpose of Lemmy is to be open and connected, not a private walled garden. If it doesn’t fit what you want, then use something else.
Basically, what is there for 90% of Lemmy users to miss, if you effectively banned 90% of Lemmy users by defederating the biggest instances in the first place? They already dont interact or see your content, unless they’re using multiple accounts, which would be no different if Beehaw wasnt a Lemmy instance at all.
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You don’t really explain why activityPub is limiting you. It’s hard to help you here.
I would say it’s probably the philosophy of the fediverse that limits them. There is a spectrum of opinions on every subject, including strong opinions and dangerous ones, sometimes both at the same time.
Having a safe space requires either control or exclusivity in my opinion. The fediverse affords you little control of instances outside your own besides outright defederation and banning of external users. Though arguably that lack of external control is one of the benefits of the fediverse as well. However, if their goal is a safe place for those they feel are disenfranchised and marginalized, they might be right that this isn’t the tool for the job. Though, adopting a different platform or strategy might limit their reach. I think that is their dilemma.
Aside from beehaw… The lack of a central control structure within the fediverse is fascinating to me. It’s reminiscent of the old internet, where everything was ran as its own little web island, and yet it has many of the benefits of the mainstream “mass market” internet of today. Over time, it will be an interesting experiment to study and be a part of.
Beehaw has already chosen not to be a part of the fediverse. There’s no real purpose in asking us; only you can resolve Beehaw’s identity crisis.
Why’d you even post this if you can’t be bothered to interract at any point in the thread? Just leave bro.
