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- cross-posted to:
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Israeli officials say that everywhere Hamas terrorists struck — the rave, the military bases along the Gaza border and the kibbutzim — they brutalized women.
A two-month investigation by The Times uncovered painful new details, establishing that the attacks against women were not isolated events but part of a broader pattern of gender-based violence on Oct. 7.
Relying on video footage, photographs, GPS data from mobile phones and interviews with more than 150 people, including witnesses, medical personnel, soldiers and rape counselors, The Times identified at least seven locations where Israeli women and girls appear to have been sexually assaulted or mutilated.
Four witnesses described in graphic detail seeing women raped and killed at two different places along Route 232, the same highway where Ms. Abdush’s half-naked body was found sprawled on the road at a third location.
And The Times interviewed several soldiers and volunteer medics who together described finding more than 30 bodies of women and girls in and around the rave site and in two kibbutzim in a similar state as Ms. Abdush’s — legs spread, clothes torn off, signs of abuse in their genital areas.
Many of the accounts are difficult to bear, and the visual evidence is disturbing to see.
The Times viewed photographs of one woman’s corpse that emergency responders discovered in the rubble of a besieged kibbutz with dozens of nails driven into her thighs and groin.
The Times also viewed a video, provided by the Israeli military, showing two dead Israeli soldiers at a base near Gaza who appeared to have been shot directly in their vaginas.
Look, you may believe the New York Times carries water for Israel, but you do no favors by calling it “The Time of Israel”. Especially since the Times of Israel is its own publication I believe.
Over the course of my education I took some classes on journalism, and the NYT was the gold standard. Does that mean I believe them unquestionably? No, but they’ve built up a reputation for honest reporting, and when they fail to do so – like with Iraq – they openly own up to it. That said, I have far more scrutiny with this conflict.
So yes, a random YouTube channel is less credible. You should also know better than to leave video links in a discussion about rape without explicitly saying if the video has triggers or not. I would not like to see a rape, and so I don’t trust mysterious video links. A leftist should understand that very well.
You said these were CC videos of Hamas and GoPro footage. I think you can understand why I thought they were from Hamas, and in a way, they are. I take it they were recovered by the IDF and then presented?
When a woman says she’s raped, I believe her. When there’s uncertainty, I believe her claim is in good faith but I want to know about investigations into it. It’s disappointing to see how quickly you assume these women are lying because it inconveniences your political beliefs. If you only believe women when it fits your narrative, you’re not a feminist. And frankly, if a leftist isn’t a feminist, then they aren’t a leftist.
Hamas clearly didn’t weaponize sexual violence as the title states. This directly proves that the article is propaganda. Hamas policy is very clearly against rape and all the female hostages that were released have confirmed to this. Surely if this was a “weaponized” tool of war every single female would have been mass raped in captivity. Instead Hamas has shown to be far more humane captors than israel.
I assume the witnesses lying because of all the insane baseless accusations that were lied about. The lying has a goal: dehumanizing Palestinians so the IDF Nazis can commit genocide. If there is no evidence it didn’t happen. The IDF lies about 40 beheaded burnt babies. Which is wayyyy worse than rape. NYT just repeats the propaganda. Just think about how bad that sounded two months ago instead of now knowing it is a lie.
40 babies. Beheaded. And then burned. The IDF is willing to lie about literally everything. Your “liberal feminism” would be just as irrelevant if Adolf Hitler made up accusations as an argument to mow down the Jews.
The attack helicopter that mowed down people at the festival. The tanks and missles shelling the Kibbutzes and the IDF then claiming that Hamas burnt those bodies while they themselves did it. assume they are lying because of all the insane baseless accusations that were lied about.
I refuse to believe any witness testimony from the israeli side when they themselves cannot provide any evidence.
Thanks for all the confirmations. It’s clear that any counterargument by me would be a waste of both of our times, so I’ll leave it here. Your comment does a wonderful job of showing your beliefs on its own.
“I am a liberal feminist so I will believe any IDF propaganda no evidence needed”
OK dude.
Don’t believe everything that makes “your side” look good and don’t doubt everything that makes it look bad, or makes your opponents look good. Apply the same standard of scrutiny.
Because everyone believes they are the hero of their tale. The Trump insurrectionists on Jan 6 in the US legitimately believed they were fighting to preserve the country. They thought they were doing a moral good, and refused to listen to anyone saying differently. Not everyone who enables and supports a fascist is aware they’re helping a fascist. They may do so unwittingly.
Always question yourself. And I am very aware this applies to my beliefs as well. I regularly question them to make sure I’m looking at the whole picture.
Don’t blindly support Hamas. They’re cruel to the Palestinians as well. They hoard supplies. They don’t hold elections and they’ve violently suppressed protest.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/21/hamas-violently-suppresses-gaza-economic-israeli-border-protests
Don’t enable oppressors who are fighting other oppressors. Both parties in a fight can be detestable bastards, and they can also be captors of the people they claim to represent. Blindly support one, and you hurt the people you want to help.
You don’t seem to understand. Israel has all the means necessary to provide evidence. They just don’t. Hamas had cameras on their heads. Israel is full of CCTV cameras. Not blindly accepting every claim is not the same as denying them all.
This is video of the Palestinians claiming the IDF shot a kid. From a bunch of people who are poorer and have less cameras than the israelis: https://youtu.be/1_6RjK6EXBs?t=26s
Not a single video like this can be found of Hamas shooting a child on Oct 7. Not one.
What some Hamas fighters did do was execute unarmed parents in front of their children. This was objectively bad and they should not have done that. Rape though? No evidence. If there was mass rape then surely there would be evidence.
I wouldn’t just believe the IDF bombs children’s hospitals until I saw clear video evidence of them doing it. And whaddaya know. There’s clear videos with clear evidence for the IDF bombing childrens hospitals.
Fair enough. I never said those were in contention, and I mostly agree. What I disagree with is saying Hamas didn’t do so much bad, although it’s worth my asking if you mean that overall or just this. If it’s just this, then I apologize and it seems we talked past each other.
Hamas certainly killed innocent people, and also kidnapped innocent people and held them hostage. I took issue with you suggesting this didn’t happen, when it very obviously did.
I appreciate that you’re patiently explaining this as a misunderstanding instead of branding me as an enemy. I think all of us agree that what’s going on is horrible and needs to stop. There’s no good answers and we’re frustrated which causes us to lash out at people who agree with us but have a different answer. For my part in that, I apologize. This is a very easy topic to get heated about and I fall for it too often and assume the worst.
I never said that they didn’t kidnap or murder people. I said they didn’t rape people and didn’t shoot any kids with guns. There is plenty of footage of Hamas kidnapping and
The weird thing is that over time Hamas went from “indiscriminate civilian murderers” to “1/3 or more were IDF kills” the more information comes out. Which certainly doesn’t happen on accident.
The IDF still refuses to investigate how many friendly fire kills they made themselves because it would “demoralize the troops” .
Seeing as the IDF initially counted 350 Hamas members that were burnt to a crisp inside the Kibbutzes as israeli deaths, it’s highly likely that a lot of those people in the kibbutses got killed by an IDF tank or missile while they were held hostage inside by Hamas members. Certainly those 350 Hamas guys inside kibbutzes weren’t all burning themselves to a crisp.
I’m certain there were bad apples within the Hamas attack that did bad things because they were just attacking in blind rage as revenge for their family being killed. But it certainly doesn’t seem to be Hamas doctrine and it seems most Hamas members did not commit those acts from the available information right now.
They still very clearly killed some people and kidnapped others though. I agree the more sensational headlines seem unlikely and just IDF propaganda. The IDF has far more blood on its hands.