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- cross-posted to:
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Israeli officials say that everywhere Hamas terrorists struck — the rave, the military bases along the Gaza border and the kibbutzim — they brutalized women.
A two-month investigation by The Times uncovered painful new details, establishing that the attacks against women were not isolated events but part of a broader pattern of gender-based violence on Oct. 7.
Relying on video footage, photographs, GPS data from mobile phones and interviews with more than 150 people, including witnesses, medical personnel, soldiers and rape counselors, The Times identified at least seven locations where Israeli women and girls appear to have been sexually assaulted or mutilated.
Four witnesses described in graphic detail seeing women raped and killed at two different places along Route 232, the same highway where Ms. Abdush’s half-naked body was found sprawled on the road at a third location.
And The Times interviewed several soldiers and volunteer medics who together described finding more than 30 bodies of women and girls in and around the rave site and in two kibbutzim in a similar state as Ms. Abdush’s — legs spread, clothes torn off, signs of abuse in their genital areas.
Many of the accounts are difficult to bear, and the visual evidence is disturbing to see.
The Times viewed photographs of one woman’s corpse that emergency responders discovered in the rubble of a besieged kibbutz with dozens of nails driven into her thighs and groin.
The Times also viewed a video, provided by the Israeli military, showing two dead Israeli soldiers at a base near Gaza who appeared to have been shot directly in their vaginas.
Fair enough. I never said those were in contention, and I mostly agree. What I disagree with is saying Hamas didn’t do so much bad, although it’s worth my asking if you mean that overall or just this. If it’s just this, then I apologize and it seems we talked past each other.
Hamas certainly killed innocent people, and also kidnapped innocent people and held them hostage. I took issue with you suggesting this didn’t happen, when it very obviously did.
I appreciate that you’re patiently explaining this as a misunderstanding instead of branding me as an enemy. I think all of us agree that what’s going on is horrible and needs to stop. There’s no good answers and we’re frustrated which causes us to lash out at people who agree with us but have a different answer. For my part in that, I apologize. This is a very easy topic to get heated about and I fall for it too often and assume the worst.
I never said that they didn’t kidnap or murder people. I said they didn’t rape people and didn’t shoot any kids with guns. There is plenty of footage of Hamas kidnapping and
The weird thing is that over time Hamas went from “indiscriminate civilian murderers” to “1/3 or more were IDF kills” the more information comes out. Which certainly doesn’t happen on accident.
The IDF still refuses to investigate how many friendly fire kills they made themselves because it would “demoralize the troops” .
Seeing as the IDF initially counted 350 Hamas members that were burnt to a crisp inside the Kibbutzes as israeli deaths, it’s highly likely that a lot of those people in the kibbutses got killed by an IDF tank or missile while they were held hostage inside by Hamas members. Certainly those 350 Hamas guys inside kibbutzes weren’t all burning themselves to a crisp.
I’m certain there were bad apples within the Hamas attack that did bad things because they were just attacking in blind rage as revenge for their family being killed. But it certainly doesn’t seem to be Hamas doctrine and it seems most Hamas members did not commit those acts from the available information right now.
They still very clearly killed some people and kidnapped others though. I agree the more sensational headlines seem unlikely and just IDF propaganda. The IDF has far more blood on its hands.
Yes of course, there is no doubt that some Hamas members did evil things. But it’s not looking like “doing evil things” was actual policy from the top. More like some dudes just went rogue that day. It was secret operation. Many guys in there were poorly trained teens that barely had info so the plans wouldn’t get leaked
Hamas isn’t knowingly telling to soldiers to bomb hospitals or refugee camps like the IDF does. What Hamas planned was an attack on several IDF military bases and the taking of hostages. And the casualty numbers do back up their claims. The initial numbers released by the IDF didn’t, but the more time goes by the more it becomes clear that the IDF lied a lot about what happened to brutalize and dehumanize Hamas. Especially the extremely low amount of 35/1388 child deaths. Meanwhile the IDF’s “precision bombing” is backed up by 9000 children being flattened.
While I still condemn the action of any Hamas soldier that killed a non-combatant, (and any rape, if it did happen), violent resistance is going to be messy and the people being oppressed sure as hell aren’t going to be educated philosophers when they strike back. And the irony is that the attack from Hamas was actually far less messy than most violent resistances in the past. And especially less than the genocide israel is committing right now.
The ANC which fought against the apartheid in South Africa also did some evil things. Some also killed non combatant colonists just because they were white. When an Apartheid murders someone’s entire family they start to take less kindly to everyone inside. You get some people that are solely out for revenge. But now we say “yeah the Apartheid was pretty bad so violent resistance was justified”. Just because 50 years have passed. In retrospect everyone always forgets the condemnations that they spoke out 50 years ago. Even the ANC would have liked their resistance to be less messy in hindsight.
http://edition.cnn.com/WORLD/9705/12/safrica.amnesty/index.html
May 12, 1997 : ANC apologizes for deaths in anti-apartheid fight But says struggle was justified
The African National Congress formally apologized Monday for the killing of civilians by its guerrilla forces during the ANC*'s three-decade struggle against apartheid.
The way I see it is that the struggle was justified, but the violence on bystanders was not, if that makes sense. I can understand why it happened. But the mentality behind it is why the senseless violence continues.
The poorly trained teens and rogues wanted vengeance. They attacked and kidnapped Israelis out of anger for the Israeli army killing their families. That results in Israelis losing family members, and subsequently wanting vengeance on Hamas. They vote for Netanyahu to keep bombing Palestinians as retribution. Blaming the entire group for the actions of individuals is how this mess just keeps going.
Because of the power dynamics, it doesn’t really matter if Palestinians forgive the IDF. The IDF will continue. The imbalance in power requires Israelis to move towards a peaceful solution even when they may want vengeance.
Regarding the official orders, we know that kidnapping civilians was likely part of their plan. With the number abducted, I doubt it’s just rogue elements. That’s still evil orders. I agree there’s a big difference from purposely bombing hospitals and refugee camps, but it’s still evil.
I believe leadership expressed this was the outcome they wanted, in terms of creating active conflict. They wanted active warfare to reignite and bring attention to them. I don’t disagree with their ends, but I can’t agree with their means. What Israel is doing is pure evil, and it’s exactly what Hamas expected them to do. The purpose of the attack war to draw out a pure evil response by Israel towards the Palestinians.
What’s the morality of that? Purposely throwing civilians in the way of a known violent entity? Hamas is a group independent of Palestine. It may have Palestinians in its ranks who want revenge, but it isn’t a Palestinian liberation front. The wellbeing of Palestinians is not their primary goal.
Bringing attention to their plight is worthwhile, but not by setting them up for slaughter.
Well the israelis voted for Netanyahu and his Likud before Oct7. The Palestinians in the West Bank aren’t Hamas. Ask them how well “trying to get along peacefully” goes.
israel is the party that doesn’t want peace. They will keep murdering Palestinians and steal their land even if the Palestinians don’t fight back. It’s like telling Jews to get along with Hitler while Hitler is the one constantly trying to kill them
The senseless violence will only continue until israel is removed, just like how peace returned to South Africa after they overthrew the Apartheid regime there.
There’s many Christians living in Gaza and even Hamas isn’t harming them, only israel wants Genocide
Was South Africa "removed’ though? Or was it a new regime that made a lot of changes? I believe a far left government would work just as well to fix the issue. Plus it’s easier to advocate for a non genocidal government than it is for removal.
Unfortunately I took don’t think there’s the numbers for that. You’d need an installed government in this case.
Maybe it would be possible to change minds if Hamas fought an information war instead, so people would be completely aware of what their army was doing. That’s what got the US out of Vietnam, when everyday people saw what was happening.
Hey by the way, about this article’s credibility…
https://mondoweiss.net/2024/01/family-of-key-case-in-new-york-times-october-7-sexual-violence-report-renounces-story-says-reporters-manipulated-them/