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[Drops flyers with warning message saying “we will attack soon; flee, those who can!”]
[Attacks the refugee camps, oh and also hospitals]
100% assholes. 👌 Equal to or worse than the Russians, I swear to freaking God.
I don’t think I remember hearing about Russians bombing Ukrainian refugee camps (though I could have missed it).
Seems like Putin sees civilians as an inconvenience that get in the way of his goals. For Netanyahu, it seems as though killing the civilians is the goal. I would say that the latter is objectively worse (though they are both pieces of shit).
Russia intentionally bombed a ton of civilian targets with zero military value. It’s weird that you don’t remember this. There’s even a lengthy Wikipedia article specifically about it: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attacks_on_civilians_in_the_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine
Yeah, I seem to remember a lot of cruise missiles hitting apartments and schools.
That’s exactly what came immediately to mind for me as well.
Now that you mention the apartments bombings, I do remember seeing footage of that. You guys are right
Yeah I wish Bill Clinton wouldn’t have done that
Not to mention eradicating close to the entirety of the military-aged male population in Donetsk and Luhansk by forced conscription.
I might grant Putin though that he’s only doing a cultural genocide, that is, the attacks on civilian infrastructure have the actual military goal of breaking resistance – which is known to generally not work, hence why it’s a war crime. He’s perfectly fine with people staying alive as long as they bend the knee and become Russian.
the attacks on civilian infrastructure have the actual military goal of breaking resistance – which is known to generally not work, hence why it’s a war crime.
I think it’d be a war crime even if it generally worked.
That’s the pacifist answer but no that’s not how war crimes work: The rules of war aren’t about avoiding bloodshed, they’re about avoiding pointless bloodshed, pointless from the point of winning an armed conflict, that is. If you can shorten a conflict and spare millions of lives by killing a couple thousands of civilians, well, a couple thousand is less than millions. War is erm dispassionate like that, a hard-nosed calculus.
Hence why you also get rules like the ban on hollow-point bullets: They’re more likely to kill than to disable. Killing combatants, however, is less effective at binding up enemy resources and thus not a sound military strategy, using them means that you care more about killing people than winning the engagement. If, OTOH, the enemy started killing all their wounded soldiers instead of expending medical resources that reasoning would cease to apply and you’d be justified using hollow points. (Which are btw in ample use by police forces because they ricochet much less, leading to less injured bystanders, but you generally don’t have bystanders on the battlefield. Similarly tear gas is allowed for police use but outlawed for war because it could get confused with a nasty chemical attack very easily, possibly leading to a very nasty escalation when the attacked force responds in kind. Also for the record there’s plenty of legitimate uses of white phosphorous, tracer rounds and smoke screens all use it, the banned use is as an incendiary weapon anywhere close to civilians but that’s not special to white phosphorous, that’s a general thing about incendiary weapons).
Russia is bombing no less indiscriminately than Israel, it’s just a much larger theater of war, their aiming capabilities suck and their shit gets shot down a lot before ever reaching anything.
They do the exact same thing day in day out. Taking out a cluster of civilians is probably worth an extra ration of vodka or even worse, a promotion, at this point.
Two wars of terror, if you want. Irony is stone cold dead at this point.
[citation needed]
Do you really need citations over russian war crimes in Ukraine?
Okay.
Wikipedia has a nice summary, feel free to browse the sources yourself.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_in_the_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine
…and just because I’m nice, here’s a little something about the booze, which really was just me joking a bit, but sadly there’s some truth there too. From The Hill:
"…The British Ministry of Defense identified heavy drinking as “particularly detrimental to combat effectiveness” of Russian troops, significantly contributing to the high death rates.
The use of non-alcoholic drugs by combatants, such as opium, heroin, cannabis and amphetamine, has historically been equally widespread, and the Russian military today is no exception."
Putin sees civilians as an inconvenience that get in the way of his goals. For Netanyahu, it seems as though killing the civilians is the goal
Yes exactly, that was basically my point, that Israel is actively attacking civilians almost exclusively (it feels like to me anyway).
fr Israel is worse than Russia
so much worse tho
They have provided proofs about the hospitals… and also the refugee camp is a big city. it’s just called that
Hamas should stop hiding in hospitals.
Even if that was the case, the IDF have no moral high ground when attacking the hospital. That just makes their job of killing Hamas harder. Hamas is an irregular force, a terrorist organization. They don’t follow the rules of war. But IDF is a regular army and should act like one lest we see them as a terrorist organization too.
If a dangerous criminal is found milling about in a crowd of people, even if some of of the people are sympathetic to him, the police don’t get to just mow the crowd down to get to him.
Exactly this. Hamas forces are shit for using hospitals and schools as shields, I’ll grant that. But the IDF is a proper first-world military force, and should act the part. Dislodging an occupying force from a command center or strongpoint that also happens to be full of civilians shouldn’t involve bombing the place flat with civilians inside, especially when it’s clearly marked as a noncombatant area (like a hospital or a school). The US Air Force did that, with camera and audio footage that showed the crew knew they weren’t in the right, in Afghanistan (the Kunduz hospital airstrike, 2015), and were roundly vilified for it - why should we not hold Israel to the same standard?
Extremely based. Makes perfect sense; no sarcasm. Well phrased. ❤️
Do you realize that a “regular army” would level the place entirely with airstrikes and artillery? --Because that’s what would be most expedient and cost the fewest Israeli lives and least money overall.
Eh, the army is pretty regular, and they still went house to house.
This wasn’t a hospital. They don’t a get a pass to bomb a refugee camp today because Hamas fighters hid in a hospital last week.
Hamas should stop hiding in refugee camps too…
Extend the logic, come on.
It is well known hamas hides among civilians. That is the main reason there is so much civilian collateral damage. Hamas themselves said it is their strategy ffs.
And Israeli officials (Netanyahu, Gvir, Smotrich, etc.) have stated that their goal is genocide. How do you feel about that?
No they havent lmao.
The worse netanyahu has said is that he prefers a one state solution and that hamas existing is useful in polarizing people towards that solution. That doesnt mean genociding arab muslims, because there are plenty in israel.
But no person in israel with any substantial support believes in genocide.
Stop making sense this is lemmy
You might as well have said “this” or “le bacon”
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If I would have to put it in order of damage in this war i would just switch hamas and US
more bombs for everyone
- us, probably
At what point does this go from being a counter terrorist operation to a genocide?
🔫 Always has been
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You don’t get these numbers without a complete disregard for civilian life, the rate they are killing average Gazans is astounding, they are only barely upholding a thin veil of plausible deniability.
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about a month and half ago
Like atleast 10+ weeks ago
It’s been a genocide since the Nakba. The US just refuses to call it that because we’re funding the damn thing.
At what point is a people who’ve been violently relocated into an open air prison (more densely populated thank Tokyo) responding to their attackers with violence in kind terrorism ?
Israel is going to remove Hamas
A lot of comments are saying that hamas hides behind civilians but from what I see and read hamas and civilians are a melting pot that is interwined due to the extreme oppression in gaza strip. Any palestinian civilian could understand and help or even just not condemn totally hamas due to their conditions and prolly Israel gladly label as hamas any slightly suspect palestinian top
If you know that your enemy is hiding behind civilians and still kill the civilians, you’re the bad guy.
It’s a piss poor excuse for murder.
Yes is basically what i said in the last sentence. Sometimes u just can’t untie civilians and fighters, especially when you are actively radicalizing civilians daily
Sometimes u just can’t untie civilians and fighters,
Then you figure out another way of getting to your enemy. There are rules to War.
You don’t get a ‘get out of jail free card’ excuse to murder civilians.
especially when you are actively radicalizing civilians daily
Bombing them in refugee camps will do the same thing. That is, if they survive the bombing.
Wait maybe I am expressing myself wrong, I agree with you 100% and all the words i was writing were to confirm your pov :)
Wait maybe I am expressing myself wrong, I agree with you 100% and all the words i was writing were to confirm your pov :)
Astroturfers will use debating tactics like seeming to be positive about a point while actually wording it so that it comes off as slightly negative, etc., especially so if they’re expecting a lot of pushback.
I wasn’t sure if you were doing that or not, but the ‘attitude’ of my reply was based on your original comment…
A lot of comments are saying that hamas hides behind civilians but from what I see and read hamas and civilians are a melting pot that is interwined due to the extreme oppression in gaza strip. Any palestinian civilian could understand and help or even just not condemn totally hamas due to their conditions and prolly Israel gladly label as hamas any slightly suspect palestinian top
In your original comment you didn’t specify your own opinion of why that was right/wrong, you just stated it as fact, and left us to assume either way.
So my suggestion would be next time to elaborate more with a second paragraph, either agreeing or disagreeing with what you stated in the first paragraph.
In their defense, it was pretty clear to me what they meant from the get-go and your replies seemed unnecessarily hostile.
In their defense, it was pretty clear to me what they meant from the get-go and your replies seemed unnecessarily hostile.
I truly don’t think I was being unnecessarily hostile, as I did assume they were astroturfing in a stealthy sort of way (as I described). For that matter, the fact that you’re defending them makes me suspect that you too are astroturfing to protect them.
The onus is on the speaker/commentor to speak fully, if they want to be understood fully, so that assumptions are not made, and misunderstanding do not happen. Trust me, I learned about that recently myself here on Lemmy lol.
I stand by what I said.
Hamas is literally the government of Gaza so
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An army should go around civilians to get to their enemy, not through them.
yes but then that won’t achieve Israeli goals
I was speaking about any army from any country.
And they were speaking about how Israel would prefer to kill as many Palestinians as possible, and that Hamas is just their excuse for doing so.
The only world record you do not want to achieve without looking like a complete monster. And yet Israel managed to do just that.
That is not even close to the world record. Killing 250 people in a day isn’t good, obviously, but it is not even a rounding error compared to real warfare.
Just considering conventional weapons, the firebombing of Tokyo on the night of 9–10 March, 1945 killed approximately 100,000 people.
Very true, but they allegedly arent at war, and the Israelis are meant to be the good guys.
I’m pretty sure this is a war. At least I’ve heard Israeli officials describe the current conflict as a war on Hamas. I don’t know of any war in which civilians aren’t negatively affected.
Israel can’t really stop fighting Hamas yet. According to the BBC, Hamas is still receiving new weapons via their tunnel system. They apparently also have an extensive weapons manufacturing system within Gaza itself.
Don’t worry mate, Israel has plenty of people supplying them with weapons.
“with Palestinian authorities reporting that 250 people have been killed”
Palestinian authorities (at least in Gaza) = Hamas. But I’m sure they have no reason to lie.
That’s a big family
Citing… Wikipedia?
Wonderful.
Only 250 Palestinians in 24 hours? ngl, that sounds like rookie numbers for Israel.
Come on guys, the Holocaust was proof that one can do better! Don’t aim to just be equal to the nazis, Israel; aim to surpass them!
