If feel like us guys are at a disadvantage here. All our lives were are told not to complain unless we bring a solution, not to cry, get up, keep moving.
Then suddenly the thought pattern we have been trained on all our lives turns out to not be healthy for supporting others and it’s a hard transition to make when we want so desperately to help and are asked not to.
Not saying it’s wrong, just hard.
it’s a hard transition to make when we want so desperately to help and are asked not to.
Listening is helping. It took me a while to get that, but we’re helping just by being quiet.
Yup. It’s akin to “not making a choice is itself a choice”. It doesn’t feel like it is, but can be equally impactful.
I think my problem is also we’re told to be empathetic and emotionally present. So what we’re being asked to do is suffer alongside without being able to alleviate the suffering.
I find this much more difficult than solving whatever the problem is, because, maybe I’m weird, but I feel pretty much all the suffering around me as if it’s happening to me, and especially when it’s my wife suffering.
what we’re being asked to do is suffer alongside without being able to alleviate the suffering.
I know that isn’t actually what people think they are asking for, but it sure feels like it so often.
Thanks for putting this into words for me.
Perhaps everyone wants to vent a while before they get a solution, but men aren’t allowed to do that.
I was way too old when I learned that you should ask if someone wants advice or just wants to vent. “Are we fixing or bitching?” is what I ask my best friend nowadays and it’s made us less likely to butt heads when one of us just wants to talk shit to get it out.
I feel like that would be the wrong question to ask my wife while she’s venting.
I always ask “is this a rant or are you asking for a solution?” Same question but worded in a way that isn’t going to cause problems.
Yeah I guess it depends on the person you’re talking to. Most people I’ve asked the question will usually laugh and say, “we’re bitching right now.”
I respond with, “bitch away.”
As a problem-solver, it isn’t only women.
Sometimes people just need someone to listen to them bitch and moan. Sometimes we don’t need a solution, sometimes there isn’t even a solution.
Wow. Just wow. This is such an eye-opener. I mean, with all the comments here.
I had no idea this was a common thing! Up until now I thought only my girlfriend was like this.
Also, this makes me understand a Christmas present I received many years ago. I never understood the meaning of it and never knew from whom I received it and why (so I couldn’t ask about it), it was just under the Christmas tree next to a book I received. This “gift” was just a note on a piece of very thin wooden sheet, it said “Is it necessary to find a solution to every problem? Can’t we just enjoy the problem for a little bit?”
Now it kinda makes sense, although I still don’t know why I received it. Yes, I am a very solution-oriented person, but I’m also very introverted, back then I didn’t have a girlfriend, I had no friends, I didn’t even talk with my family much, and honestly, I couldn’t even really find solutions to problems in the first place. I have no clue what made someone give that to me.
Same here. After marriage, I did learned to tone down on this.
People notice you more than you think they do. You may think you didn’t talk to people much but that means it was non zero and people tend to listen.
People will want to dwell on the problem for a bit so they can fully feel their feelings. They feel cut off and stunted if they’re not allowed to.
Most people, especially women, crave connection. We want to feel seen and understood. Cutting us off to provide a quick solution feels as if you really just want us to shut up so you can go back to whatever you were doing.
I acknowledge that the cutting off part is valid, but that wasn’t in OPs post.
Top the broader point, I can say confidently that many men feel like to provide an actionable solution to a problem projects exactly what you say that you want - to us it says that we’ve seen, heard and understood you and we cared enough to process the information we heard and offer a solution that we formed by investing some real thought/energy into you as a person we care about.
Can you empathize with how, to a person with the above perception, that just quietly nodding along and saying, “that’s really tough” or “I’m sorry about that honey” would sound like exactly the opposite of what you say you want - Like we’re not actually tuned in and listening to you, but rather just waiting for pauses in your speech so we can share generic platitudes while maintaining eye contact to give the illusion that we’re invested?
It’s a tricky balance and there’s likely just a fundamental disconnect that we should address. I think you and I can solve this one for the whole world going forward though, what do you think?
that because you suck at active listening
At the same time, the way I understand issues and connect with people is to try to relate to them and bounce that back. It helps to make sure my understanding is correct, or identify what is missing.
If that includes something that sounds like solutions, sometimes that’s just the natural course of conversation, and people should be just as understanding about the other side of the conversation.
It begins to come across that someone is not looking for conversation, just an audience, and that’s not a happy feeling to be on the end of either. It makes us feel just as ignored. After enough of that feeling long term, we can’t help but feel like we aren’t getting the connection we crave either.
This is a two-way communication issue, and when there’s a breakdown, that’s not always on us as listeners.
I mean kinda is true though? Ignoring an easy fix just so you can keep complaining about the problem makes it feel like you don’t actually care about the issue, you just wanted any excuse to complain at me. On our end, the problem and feelings of frustration surrounding it weren’t “invalidated” until you decided continuing to be frustrated was more important than having a possible answer to the issue.
We want you to stop complaining about it because the problem is addressed and isn’t a problem causing frustration anymore. NOT because we’re just annoyed hearing you talk and want to shut you up and invalidate your feelings about the problem.
If anything this narrative of “oh God just shut up” invalidates OUR feelings about being gaslit for trying to fucking help.
It’s the relationship equivalent of watching conservatives go on and on and on and on about underage pregnancies when multiple institutional remedies are right there, and they proceed to ignore those solutions in favor of getting to continue complaining about the problem.
Why is it my responsibility to validate feelings you yourself are telling me are just kvetch that you actively choose to keep being mad about instead of addressing to not waste energy on being angry.
I hear what you are saying, and I’ve been there with a friend who continues to make bad choices and then cry about the logical results of those choices. However, it’s not that difficult to just say, “That sounds rough. I’m sorry you’re going through that.” There is absolutely no need to be a judgemental asshole about it. Asking, “Are you looking for advice or sympathy?” is super easy. Listening is super easy. You have to ask yourself why you are getting butthurt if somebody doesn’t immediately take your advice or deal with life the exact same way you do.
Why is “that’s rough buddy” take the place of offering help?
Why is it getting butthurt about them not just doing it the way I’d do it when the subject was them getting mad at me for offering a solution at all?
Clearly you are incapable of understanding despite multiple people trying to explain it to you.
No, there’s just nothing worth understanding.
As I said before, just because it’s a woman vs man thing, doesn’t mean the way the women are doing it is healthy, and worth respecting.
We have toxic masculinity, we don’t need toxic feminity to explain why solutions to a problem are bad and you should just shut up and let the problem haver “feel valid” instead of doing anything that materially helps them.
If anything this narrative of “oh God just shut up” invalidates OUR feelings about being gaslit for trying to fucking help.
This entire comment is a whole new level of whiny misogynist cringe. This person is so incredibly worked up about a woman wanting to be supported and heard that if they weren’t such an asshole, people might actually feel bad for them.
Is it actually wanting to be supported if you don’t want support, just to bitch and moan about a problem that has a solution?
Why should you be supported and heard when you’re complaining about a problem caused by someone not being able to solve 2+2?
There is an answer, it has a simple implementation, it will fix the problem, and you’re getting mad it was offered because “I just want to be heard!”
This isn’t the fucking MeToo movement where women are being spoken over and shut up by institutional violence, this is women deciding feeling valid is more important than addressing the fucking problem that’s making them feel whatever feelings they think need validating more than the problem needs solving.
“Why can’t we just enjoy the problem a bit?” BECAUSE IT IS A FUCKING PROBLEM, IT BY DEFINITION IS NOT SOMETHING ANYONE ENJOYS, JUST FUCKING SOLVE THE PROBLEM AND STOP GASLIGHTING PEOPLE FOR OFFERING SOLUTIONS TO IT.
Just because women do it does not mean it is a healthy and valid response to a situation, and this kvetch about “solutions bad” is the crowning example of this.
We heard the problem, we are supporting you by offering help to solve the problem. You are the one invalidating shit by rejecting solutions in the name of continuing to have a problem to feel valid and complain about.
Sometimes people just want to talk about what they are going through. There’s nothing wrong with that. If they want help solving it, they will ask.
Ok but getting upset if a solution is offered because “can’t you just listen to me‽”
Is well beyond fair to whoever you have conscripted as your sounding board. At that point it’s not just venting about what you’re going through, it’s attacking them for daring to empathize in a way you didn’t tell them you didn’t want.
Huh. An interrobang in the wild.
My mother is a steel woman, rational and calm, no bitching, no crying, there is a problem? fix it. You need something? say it, don’t expect others to guess. Words are empty, you care? See what that person needs and help them. Not a fan of corny things, you want love? There is this delicious food, and a hug, now grow up and keep going.
Aaand everything she taught me, has put me at odds with every women I have dated.
love languages. Even an action can be relatively empty, in the short term. For some people, physical action takes less effort than emotional, empathetic work due to the potential emotional discomfort involved and/or the vulnerability required. Different people need different things, this is often due to our experiences as children.
You’re not the problem and neither are they.
Eeeeehhhhhhh I have a feeling Lemmy is going to skin me alive for this but I can’t help myself.
It’s not about the nail.
It’s funny, but she’s right, it’s not about the nail. Never was.
This meme is pretty belittling to the wife in this scenario and it’s kind of fucked.
Rule #1 of being in a relationship is learning to listen and empathize with your partner. Just sit, and listen quietly, and tell them “that really sucks, I am so sorry, I’m here for you” It’s really that simple. Most of us are techy and leap to a solution because that’s how our brains are wired but they just want someone to listen. Just listen
Concurrently, constantly telling a rational problem solver problems and not letting them offer solutions ALSO takes a mental toll on the listener.
It’s bidirectional. It probably will result in compassion fatigue.
ya, I think the person b4 you is jumping to conclusions a bit. What matters is what works for the couple, not some generalized assumption about their dynamic. The meme could have been in jest and if we want to give OP the benefit of the doubt here then it probably is
Fair, but let’s be honest, most of the time a partner may not want to hear about a solution because they first want compassion and understanding. Be willing to listen, and your partner will talk about a solution when they are ready.
I can’t speak to “most of the time” as I only have experience with my relationships. In my current one, problem solving and empathy both are used to great results.
You’re not getting it. The listening is the help
Venting is important as a support person. Sometimes it really is just being there for the person.
I’m a problem solver. I know how to solve those problems!
It took years of marriage before it was pointed out that’s not what the complainer wants.
Step one: get lighter fluid.
Step two: set desk on fire.
Step three: quit.
Step four: woah, hold on I was just joking!(Well, about the fire at any rate…)
Lighter than what?
In case you were seriously asking, “lighter fluid” is just fuel/gas to quickly (an accelerant) start a fire. So the fuel you might find in a cigarette lighter. Typically when people say “lighter fluid”, in this case, they mean the giant squirt bottle that you use on a barbecue pit to get the coals to light faster.
Whenever I complain, I usually already know what needs to be done to solve the problem(if there is a solution). Venting is honestly more for emotional affirmation than anything else.
Of course, if I would suggestions or help, I would not hesitate to ask for them.
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Make them a pizza and bring it to bed.
I don’t think asking questions can ever be a bad thing, really, especially if you’re not cutting anyone off. That’s not in counter to the post, or anything, I just think it’s generally a very good idea. You can honestly listen to someone with questions, and it shows that you’re thinking about their problems in a way that’s more real than just like, making eye contact, saying garbage platitudes, and then kind of being like the human equivalent of a teddy bear or some sort of comfort object for someone. A well directed question can often get more to the root of the problem more than anything else, I think. You can also direct people around with questions, but that’s maybe best left for your good faith actual listeners, rather than people who just want to abuse their question-asking so they can direct someone towards what they think the solution is.
I dunno. people are just like. Not good listeners, at all. I’m not, most of the time, I like to think that I’m decent at it when there’s something that matters, but then I also have a pretty big brainfog whenever this shit happens, and I forget to ask questions sometimes, which really, really, impairs your ability to comprehend the whole situation. The biggest thing is just trying to piece everything together, right, that’s a good use of your conscious thought. A bad use of your conscious thought is thinking about what you’re gonna say next, or remembering whatever like. scripted response you’ve come up with for this scenario, slotting this scenario into a specific “problem” set that you’re gonna pretend that you’ve already solved.
On the flip-side, I do find it kind of annoying when you ask someone some question like “well have you tried talking to them?”, and they interpret that as “what do you think I’m STUPID do you think I haven’t TRIED THAT!”, when usually the purpose of a question like that is more like “what was the result when you talked to them?”. It’s to spurn on more context, it’s a platform to vent more, basically. The language of the question could be more precise, yes, but oftentimes people are so used to not being talked to and engaged with as human beings, that they kind of default to taking every question as a bad faith attack on their intelligence as a sort of defense mechanism, or something. It’s kind of annoying, and when that happens you have to deliberately be more precise and be more careful to get across explicitly that you’re invested in their life, but it’s just like. It’s just a thing I’ve noticed that people do sometimes, I guess, what I’m saying is, be on the lookout for that more. Don’t get mad when/if that happens, just be like, oh, my bad, sorry, that’s not really what I meant to say, I meant to say (insert more precise and carefully worded question here).
That’s it, that’s all I got.
edit: Actually it wasn’t. Most of the time, the solutions you’re proposing are garbage, and your partner (usually, unfortunately, could be whoever you’re talking to) is elevating the conversation to a more top down view of why all your solutions suck. The reason it’s important to ask questions is because the problems everyone is having are usually more complex than the solution you can come up with in five seconds. People aren’t like, “how do I fix my toilet”, and then you just tell them to turn off the water. The problems people have are way more complicated than that. At least give it five minutes of listening, you will be impressed by the results.
when usually the purpose of a question like that is more like “what was the result when you talked to them?”
But then say that? There’s a clear distinction in tone between those two wordings, even if they express similar thoughts.
Because you are making an assumption that they did talk to them. Most people avoid confrontation whenever possible(in my experience).
People often need to vent when they are overfrustrated by not being able to resolve a problematic scenario, or are not able to remove themselves from being around the situation that is causing them the stress(like when co workers are being toxic af at each other and keep.dragging you into it and you are stuck working next to it all day because your desk is in the same area etc)
