I’ve been trying to find a good Marxist instance, but Lemmygrad and Hexbear are widely hated. Why is that? Are there any good leftist instances?
They are hardline Marxist-Leninists, something that is very rare in the western world even amongst those who identify as leftist or socialist. If their views make you uncomfortable, then you’re not a ML, which is okay.
Left-wing politics is a very broad spectrum, and a lot of Lemmy users lean towards the more moderate end which brings them into conflict with the more radical communities that are Lemmygrad and Hexbear.
That’s all there is to it.
deleted by creator
And they’re not artificially suppressed like they are on other social media platforms.
*depending on what instance you’re on
They are defederated from a lot of instances, from their own side or the other’s (my instance is defederated from LG and HB defederated itself from my instance)
That’s all there is to it.
That’s it? Nothing about their notoriety for posting pictures of pigs pooping on their balls as part of their lively defense of MLism?
That’s not a defense, per se; that’s them telling you you are no longer worth the dialogue. You crackers aren’t worth debating.
Generally, they aren’t marxists, they’re “tankies”. And even fairly extreme socialists tend to dislike that. That’s lemmygrad.
Hexbear is just filled with trolls that federated specifically to troll and disrupt the rest of lemmy in the name of their beliefs.
On either, you can find individuals that are perfectly cool to talk to. But it’s like rolling the dice where only snake eyes win. And, even when you win, you can’t be certain that it isn’t a long troll waiting to fuck with you because some of them do that too.
Thank you!
I believe you’ve answered your own question.
Lemmy isn’t Marxist-only. The majority of Lemmy users are what the more vocal Lemmygrad and Hexbear users deride as “libs.” As a thought experiment, imagine that you are one of us for a moment and then browse Local on one of those.
Thought experiment; Don’t be a lib.
Exhibit #1 why Hexbear/Lemmygrad are unpopular: this guy
this fella’s face when they posted that:
I haven’t seen or maybe haven’t noticed much of lemmygrad. But hex bear has a culture of spamming the same handful of images, using them like punctuation in their posts. And they show up huge in my reader at least (I just found out they look small to them.) So it’s like you’re trying to have a discussion and someone comes parading through with like five crappy drawings that take up all the space. Also I don’t mind having Marxists around but they tend to want to steer every discussion toward it, regardless of its relevance. Can’t wait to be able to block the instance.
Removed by mod
Removed by mod
Lemmygrad and Hexbear aren’t “leftist” in the confused sense that Americans usually mean “leftist.” They’re actually leftist in the original sense, meaning that they want to abolish private ownership of the means of production. To the extent they’re “widely hated,” it’s largely because the Anglosphere has been indoctrinated against real, actual socialism their entire lives.
That’s not the part people have an issue with, the part where their users deny genocides, call everyone that has a less extreme left opinion of politics Nazis, end up being so “anti-racism” that they’re racists themselves and take all critics as personal attacks, that’s what people have an issue with.
end up being so “anti-racism” that they’re racists themselves
lmao shut up
; settler tears are abundant in supply and abysmally low in both demand and qualityI love you and how you take the time to call out all of these comments.
I’m on break and I don’t celebrate Amerikan Genocide Day; I got nothin but time today homie
Wild how much footage is coming out of Gaza right now showing an actual ongoing genocide, yet Zionists and their water-carriers will harp on and on about how Israel is merely defending itself.
Nothing of the sort from Xinjiang. At all.
I’d like to see ONE verifiable image or video depicting this supposed Uyghur genocide we’re denying. ONE. Apparently it’s one of the worst human atrocities occuring right now. One of the worst in HISTORY.
So… show me a single picture. Fetish porn doesn’t count. Where are the dead bodies? Where are these supposed mass graves?
Love to break it to ya, they don’t fucking exist and they never did. You’ve been lied to.
The US state department lawyers and the British House of Lords have evidence. That’s why they’re pursuing convictions of the Chinese leaders involved. No, wait— sorry, I misremembered. They both concluded there is insufficient evidence.
Can you point to genocide denial before you make sweeping accusations?
Nope. Comment threads don’t work like that.
Okay so no evidence Hexbear or Lemmygrad have denied genocides?
Oh there certainly is. You gotta read those comment threads yourself.
It’s popped up in this one, too. It’s really curious how you can read and write enough to answer here, but not see that.
I’m not asking to see the comments for myself, I’m asking if you can point to evidence of this happening; it’s not the same question.
I understand. You refuse to accept something that is fairly obvious for many Lemmy users and want to put a burden of proof on me, and because I don’t want to take on additional work for someone I neither know nor agree with, you are happy to keep your opinion, as am I to keep mine.
their users deny genocides
If you are referring to the Xinjiang issue, then it just reaffirms what @[email protected] just said:
it’s largely because the Anglosphere has been indoctrinated against real, actual socialism their entire lives
Because the “Uyghur genocide” in Xinjiang is another example of propaganda. Or do you really think the West cares about Muslims and want to protect their “freedom”?
call everyone that has a less extreme left opinion of politics Nazis
I don’t see anyone in Lemmygrad calling other people “Nazis” because they disagree with someone in a discussion. I usually see them criticizing others as “liberals.” This is either a misrepresentation of leftists in general, very common among conservatives, or you are frequently being called a Nazi. I don’t know, maybe that’s on you? 🤔
end up being so “anti-racism” that they’re racists themselves and take all critics as personal attacks
That’s so specific you should give at least one example of this. We have very strict moderation against any bigotry, so I challenge you to link any “racist” attitude or comment you have seen in Lemmygrad. I will give you 24 hours, and if you don’t reply with an example, I will edit this comment saying you chickened out.
EDIT: They chickened out, as expected.
And 24 hours have passed with no evidence! No sources! No citations! Typical unsubstantiated settler horseshit.
Another repeating problem is the vast generalizations. Treating “the West” as if they’re all Bush Jr. or Reagan.
If “the west” isn’t voting for Bush or Reagan then they’re hailing people like Obama, who destroyed Libya and brought back open air slave markets - or Clinton who destroyed Belgrade and undermined social protections for workers. To think you are somehow better because you support(ed?) Genocide Joe is just delusion.
What’s your view on Trump?
Critical support to Donald Trump in his mission to undermine the amerikkkan state, bless him for not hiring people to the state department and congratulations for his negotiation of capitulation to the Taliban
Ok, Stalin
Just as bad as Biden, Obama, Bush Jr., and both Clintons; deserving of the same International Criminal Court convictions as the five I just listed.
Fun fact: did you know the ICC has only ever prosecuted African nationals since its inception in 2002?
I’m not even American yet still in “the west”, and refuse to be identified by American subpar ways of determining people in power.
Americrackers and their vassals
being in the west may as well mean you’re american, they tell you what to do, try saying no.
Don’t act Reagan-adjacent and you won’t get pilloried for it. Considering you wanna throw around allegations of genocide denial with zero investigation and zero evidence, you sound less Reagan and a lot more Bush-- and subsequently deserve no right to serious speech.
Holy shit you got them to brigade your comment. They might as well be bots, I think Chat GPT’s “intelligence” outpaces them.
I believe it says far more about your own reading comprehension skills if you can’t tell us - human beings sick and tired of Empire apologia - apart from the usually incomprehensible shit salad that language models currently like to present as coherent.
Maybe if you actually read more, you’d be able to discern the difference. 🤷♂️
As is tradition! What’s funny is that they’re supposed to be defederated from my instance so I don’t know why they even see my comments… Their admin even called my instance “sh.itsfullof.nazis” in their defederation message because they were angry that they were confronted to people who disagreed with them when they brigaded our administration communities…
itjustworks once again being a cryptofash instance.
sh.itsfulla.nazis being a nazi bar? Perish the thought!
Thanks for providing an example of what I was talking about :)
end up being so “anti-racism” that they’re racists themselves
anyone complaining about “reverse racism” or “anti white racism” is a complete joke. like boo fucking hoo, someone called you a cracker on the internet, get over it.
Racism has a definition that’s fairly easy to understand and yes people of all colors can be victims and even people of the same skin colour can be racists against one another because racism isn’t necessarily about the color of your skin, it can be about your ethnicity.
Racism:
prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism by an individual, community, or institution against a person or people on the basis of their membership in a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized.Ethnicity:
the quality or fact of belonging to a population group or subgroup made up of people who share a common cultural background or descent.If you had taken a crowd of anonymous Germans all dressed the same in 1935, how would you have told who was a Jew and who wasn’t? You wouldn’t have been able to because they were all just white people.
What do you call it when 100 years ago in a first world white country the population that speaks one official language has an infant mortality rate comparable to that of colonial Africa while the population that speaks the other official language and lives in the same cities has an infant mortality rate comparable to any other first world nation?
Was the Rwanda genocide not racism because it was two groups with the same skin colour? What about what happened in Yugoslavia?
My white friend who went to China to study had to sit through multiple explanations by many Chinese student of the levels of intelligence being affected by skin colour and ethnicity and guess what, whites weren’t at the top! “All white people are dumber than Indians who are dumber than Koreans who are dumber than Chinese.” Are you telling me that isn’t racism against white people (and anyone that isn’t Chinese)? Because I sure would hope someone would call me a racist if I was saying the same thing about people of another skin colour or ethnicity!
you see i have pulled out the dictionary definition of racism and also an annecdote about how a country colonized by white people for centuries can actually be racist against my white friend for calling him a ‘cracker’, defeating your arguement
Racism is not easy to understand and you’re definitely not going to get a clear understanding of it from reading a definition especially if you’re white. I suggest you read some books. Good heavens maybe your racist Chinese friend is right.
Edit I hear this is a good book
White fragility by Robin diangelo
racism against white people
lmao shut up
Removed by mod
So you’re saying that what the Jews were victim of during WW2 wasn’t racism? Because they certainly were white!
How about the Irish? The deportation of Acadians? French Canadians seeing their language becoming illegal to teach in Manitoba? The Yugoslav wars?
By your logic it’s also impossible to be racist towards Chinese and Japanese because man, let me tell you, they can be racist as fuck towards everyone else and they were the ones in power on their side of the world for centuries!
Racism has a definition and it’s a bad thing no matter who the victim is.
European Jews were not considered white before and during WW2. Whiteness has always changed with whatever we needed it to be for political reasons. The Irish were not considered white. In South Africa during Apartheid, a Japanese national was forbidden by a bus driver from entering a whites-only bus because the driver thought he was Chinese. The man sued and won against the driver as the Japanese were considered white and allowed to board segregated buses.
Removed by mod
It’s funny how it’s always the same whenever you’re confronted to arguments. You just insult the other party and leave the scene like you were a hero.
Also very funny you should call me a cracker when you don’t know what’s my origin, you just assume I’m white because you would be unable to accept that someone not white could realize that racism goes all ways.
Removed by mod
Removed by mod
That isn’t what they are talking about, hopefully. But if it is, I agree, a hearty “lol” is in order.
they replied confirming to me that what they were complaining about was in fact racism against white people, given that it seems to be a pretty common bit on lemmygrad to call people crackers and compare them to that kid who went onto fox news to complain about his face being photoshopped onto a picture of a ritz cracker by left wing students at his university that seems to be what they were complaining about
Bad interpretation is bad
That’s a liberal with no framework. No one denies genocides (pro-tip just because the western media says it’s a genocide doesn’t make it a genocide.) Being so anti-racist you are the real racist is the Liberal Democratic party who elected a hard-core segregationist as president, not a Marxist Leninist. No one except people like you give a fuck about personal attacks. lol.
The “Uyghur genocide” is bullshit Atlanticist propaganda, and English-language Wikipedia is basically NATOpedia in its slant on the topic, so yes we will deny it. It’s a product of the new Cold War propaganda campaign against China.
Here are some properties of any conspiracy theory worth it’s name:
- Closed Ideological Systems: They provide an all-encompassing explanation for various events or states, with everything fitting into their worldview.
- Immunity to Facts: Any contrary evidence is dismissed as false or considered part of the conspiracy.
- Enemy Construction: They tend to draw a clear line between “us” (those who “know the truth”) and “them” (the supposed conspirators).
- Adaptability: Conspiracy narratives can change and incorporate new “evidence” or events to maintain their credibility.
It matches for QAnon and the MAGA crowd as well as the lemmygrad crowd.
How ironic! Let’s see if it fits for the “genocide” position:
-
Closed Ideological Systems: Whether those who defend the idea of “genocide” in Xinjiang are aware or not, the sources used to claim there is a genocide in Xinjiang is usually Adrian Zenz, a German white supremacist and Christian fundamentalist who claimed in his book Worthy to Escape that “other belief systems are ultimately inspired by Satan” and justifies “eternal punishment” for those who refuse to believe in Jesus.
-
Immunity to Facts: Every time one tries to argue that Xinjiang faced a policy of de-radicalization of terrorists who led many attacks against the province, those who claim there is a genocide there say they are “genocide deniers.” I’ve even seen people saying those who don’t agree with the “genocide” position are paid by the Chinese.
-
Enemy Construction: I can’t even count the number of times people have called those who don’t promote the “genocide” propaganda “tankies” and dismissing them instead of engaging with arguments.
-
Adaptability: The “genocide” propaganda claims there is a genocide there, and then when presented with the fact that even those who were put in the re-education facilities were allowed to express their culture with dances and art on video, the “genocide” conspiracy theorists say that it was a fake, an act, that it was a spectacle organized by the Chinese to hide the genocide. Just to give you an example.
It does match the “genocide” position very well. I’ve yet to see a genocide which preserves the language, the culture, the customs and the places of worship of a people. Another thing, notice the reaction of Muslim countries to the actual genocide being perpetrated by Israel. They are firmly condemning it through all channels. In contrast, the policies of de-radicalization by the Chinese were unanimously well-received by Muslim countries.
Another thing, notice the reaction of Muslim countries to the actual genocide being perpetrated by Israel. They are firmly condemning it through all channels. In contrast, the policies of de-radicalization by the Chinese were unanimously well-received by Muslim countries.
Very generous of you to assume that many of these folk believe Muslims and Arabs are human beings capable of forming their own opinions and international policy. The opinions of actual Muslims are similarly handwaved akin to any communist’s opinion.
These states’ international defense of China’s de-radicalization program is stated to merely be because they are money-hungry opportunists, buddying up with China while ignoring a politically and economically inconvenient genocide. 🙄 How… adaptable this narrative is.
The seemingly unending wave of videos of Uyghurs in China recording themselves in their homes and making it clear they are not undergoing genocide have to be ignored. In fact, they have to be deleted by the platforms hosting them. How utterly immune to facts this narrative is.
If these countries care about Palestine, oh… I don’t know. Russia is making them care. Iran, maybe? Maybe North Korea or China are forcing these Muslims to hate Israel. Who else are we being directed to hate right now? Afghanistan? Just throw a dart at the “Axis of Evil” board and pick an “uncivilized” nation. It’s their fault. Why not?
-
not having the self awareness to realize this applies to anti-communists, not communists/MLs as they use scientific reasoning.
Just to understand what you are saying, do you say communists apply scientific reasoning?
Yes, the foundation of most communists reasoning is based on sociology.
That’s very abstract and doesn’t mean much. With as many words you can say capitalism is based on scientific reasoning.
Yes, Marxism is based on a scientific methodology called historical materialism. It’s too complex to be explained in a single comment, but it has an internal logic and methodology which proposes to analyze social systems in general, but especially capitalist societies in particular.
You can’t use the scientific method used in the natural sciences because you can’t put a society in a lab to study it. Social sciences require a methodology apart from the natural sciences, and Marxism has proposed historical materialism, which is very consistent and coherent approach, based on the Hegelian dialectical logic with materialism as a principle.
Atlanticist crackers are exactly why I’m a third-worldist; I genuinely care more about my community’s diaspora than I’d ever care about these genocidal neocolonist crackers
I get why people would believe it like a decade ago when the facts were still kind of up in the air, but now even west media is like “yeaaah we looked into it and all of it is complete and utter bullshit” and yet you still have people confidently going on like it’s still a thing.
Eventually you have to come to the grips with the fact that the only reason you believe in the Uyghur genocide is because you’re racist.
More often than not, when Americans say leftist they really mean left-liberalism a la Bernie Sanders, which is really center-left at most, and not actually leftist in the original sense, a sense which Americans have forgotten thanks to two Red Scares and the first Cold War.
True, but leninists are not leftist in any significant sense either. They are more authoritarian/ totalitarian than they are left or right.
Removed by mod
Nah, I don’t think I will compromise. Hitler was a totalitarian dictator, and Lenin horseshoed himself all the way around to become the same. None of their American contemporaries then or since are comparable. Waving your hand and saying everything is authoritarian ignores how many people they both killed to maintain that authority, the vast majority being working class. Leninists are not leftists, they are just bloodthirsty pigs.
Any politically focused space on the Internet, left or right, is a cesspool of toxic lies and hatred of anyone outside their sphere
British. Immediately discarded.
The OG colonizer scum? DEFINITELY discarded. Into the woodchipper with TERF island scumbags.
That’s what we call racism
im british and i give them the g-word pass (gammon) to refer to british people in a derogatory way
Oh so y’all got a pig(derogatory) equivalent too! Baller.
L M F A O
Motherfuck the Brits and any expectation they’re owed ANY kind of respect lmfao lmfao lmfao
Removed by mod
Removed by mod
ITT: offended lennygrad and hexbear users giving good examples to answer the OP
Lemmygrad isn’t “hated” by most of the wider lemmyverse. There’s just a loud and obnoxious minority of people that will rail and rant about lemmygrad. They loudly rant about lemmygrad because they aren’t used to seeing their worldview get challenged and by its very nature as a radical leftist community, lemmygrad is a challenge to the typical background liberal perspective.
It’s no surprise we all end up seeing a lot of threads about “those mean tankies at lemmygrad” (and hexbear too) made by people who can’t take their worldview getting questioned, or even shown to be flawed, or just not standing up to their own scrutiny, and who get mad when that happens. There are also of course people with ideological reasons to demonize leftwing politics and will spread shit for that reason alone. But overall, I don’t think most people care enough except to think “oh yeah that’s that instance with those radical lefties, they’re weird but they do make some great memes sometimes.”
There are people who called the main lemmy.ml instance a community of tankies, so I’d take a lot of these claims with a grain of salt.
There’s a difference between challenging other people’s opinions and calling them fascists or Nazis just because they’re not at the extreme left.
Even worse, in this very thread I’ve been called a fascist for the sole reason that my instance is sh.itjust.works, one of the bigger instances and one where your political opinion isn’t a criteria to subscribe (especially not when I subscribed, they didn’t even ask for an email!)
You must’ve done something to court those allegations. What’d you say? What’d you do? Who’d you align with geopolitically? I bet we’ll find an answer in at least one of those three.
Yeah, I only joined shitjust works because that’s where the cdda Lemmy is and that’s the first thing I used it for, didn’t even know people think it’s a political instance. Though I guess with the hexbears and lemmygrads everything’s political somehow. That’s why I generally avoid dealing with them anyway.
everything’s political somehow.
If somehow, everything isn’t political for you; that’s your sign that you might just be a settler. Just the act of going outside in a hwhite neighborhood is a political action for me with how many cop-caller Beckies I live around. Wish I had your sweet-assed life.
Hahahahahaha
I’m pretty left/lean socialist. The tankies that annoy me from those instances are pro authoritarian communists who say shit like “Stalin did nothing wrong” with no irony whatsoever. It’s not really about bickering over ideological purity past a certain point, some of that shit makes a good case for the horseshoe theory
“I’m as left as they come but I’m still going to throat the entire State Department patent leather shoe talm bout ‘authoritarians’ like that’s anything more than another white-folk-slur for brown leaders who deny them” you are a fucking joke
For the same reason people hate the Nazi trolls. Extreme left or right does not matter. Normal people don’t want that garbage.
Some people are to hypothetical conversation what a boulder is to the wind.
Lemmygrad and Hexbear are cool. IDK why you wouldn’t like them if you’re a leftist.
Hexbear in particular has been annoying in the past with nonsense comments from users there, and so many unhelpful replies that are just a tiny animated image and nothing else. I’m not even sure they actually are leftist as much as just trolls a lot of times, so I’ve blocked the instance in general so that serious leftist conversations aren’t being drowned out by that nonsense.
If it looks like someone from hexbear (such as yourself here) is making a real contribution then I’ll reveal that comment and engage. It’s a shame there are so many goofballs on that instance, apparently. Maybe their moderation has improved though?
Not to mention that before federating, hexbear always had a soft aura of antisemitism floating around it. They’ve cleared house of it since but I remember wondering why they were so disproportionally vitriolic about Trotsky until I learned he was Jewish, then it all started to click.
Honestly I wouldn’t even be remotely surprised if I found out in a couple decades that website was run as controlled opposition. Feels like everything there is designed to either placate or turn people away from communism rather than push them towards understanding it. Compare it to Lemmygrad where they’ll reach a hand out to help reactionaries be less reactionary but on hexbear they just post a picture of a pig shitting on its balls and hurl harassing comments their way as if that’s somehow going to make them any less anticommunist. (and as a fine bonus, all those comments boosts their reactionary bullshit to the top of the federation for everyone to see)
I’m glad you view my instance in a more positive light, and I can’t comment on early Hexbear culture, but I am still so very confident, absolutely positive, that the hate you’re seeing for Trotsky is not because of his religion.
Opposing a settler colonial, apartheid State, which has been ethnically cleansing for three generations and is committing genocide as we speak, is not a “soft aura of antisemitism”.
Obviously not, i’m talking about the people there who were using the leftist environment to shield their actual antisemitism. That shit’s been since wiped off the platform but that wasn’t the case back when I was there.
You know the kind. The ones who would call them “Jews” rather than “Zionists” where if it was posted on reddit nobody would have trouble seeing the antisemitism for what it was but because it was hexbear it obfuscated their actual intentions. Outright antisemitism would get punished pretty hard which is why it’s a soft aura, since it just kinda hung around in the background seeing how much it could get away with. The mods/admins tendency to just ban people who went against the grain resulted in that shit being passively protected for years until the federation forced them to be at least somewhat accountable where blatantly silencing criticism wasn’t going to fly anymore.
Oh, thanks. I’m glad I got to the party late then!
I’m a leftist that doesn’t like hanging with racists and totalitarians, that’s why I don’t like them.
You’re on itjustworks, you’re not a leftist, you’re a social fascist.
You realise that the instance has open registration that doesn’t require a specific political allegiance? I’m on it because it’s local, I would have chosen any other local instance if it wasn’t this one.
Your gaslighting tactics aren’t going to work here.
I don’t think you even know what “totalitarianism” is. You know why? Because that term doesn’t mean anything. It was popularized by Hannah Arendt, an academic author indirectly associated with the CIA (as thoroughly discussed by Frances Stonor Saunders in her book The Cultural Cold War). The term was used in the context of the Cold War to promote the idea that the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany were the same thing or very similar. It served the interests of the US and Western European countries.
Now to call our userbase racist, I would expect at least further explanation. We have very strict moderation, and racist garbage is severely dealt with. So if you seen someone being racist in Lemmygrad, please let me know. I’m an admin there, and we could quickly resolve this. If you haven’t, then you should quietly think with yourself why you are lying to others here. You hate us based on a lie?
Michael Parenti: Left anti-communism: The Unkindest Cut
Liberals hate communists more than they hate fascists
Liberals don’t even really hate fascists, they just pretend to condemn them to keep up international appearances; as the past year’s slippage, then shameless tearing-off of the mask has shown us. No one should be surprised by this, either-- the American way has always been clad in a pointy white robe, clutching a rifle in white-knuckled hands; if you peel back all the mythologizing.
Its a country founded on genocide that deported as many communists as they could in the 50s then killed and arrested the rest that remained.
Lets not forget the active genocides they carried out in vietnam or the middle east either, or the concentration camp they have open on cuba.
Sorry for my ignorance, but I think liberal means something else in my part of the world. Can you please tell me what’s your definition?
Edit: As I thought - you guys mean Neoliberalism. Even in the links below it’s mentioned that there was a split in terms. Language matters! Liberalism - a political and social philosophy that promotes individual rights and civil liberties (the opposite in the political spectrum from authoritarianism).
Some more resources:
On Liberalism
- Why do communists dislike liberals?, 2
- What about free speech?
- Why do leftists think that FDR co-opted the left to “save” capitalism?
- What’s wrong with democrats ( insert moderate party here ) ?
- Why not vote for the lesser of two evils (Lesser-evilism)?
- Can’t we change the democrats from within?
- What about “moderates” like Jimmy Carter? Can’t we push them to change?
- Can’t we use voting to solve our problem? Is violence really necessary? What about Martin Luther King Jr. and Gandhi? audiobook
- Malcolm X on liberals.
they’re not using liberal in the american sense of liberal meaning gay blue haired woman with pronouns and vegan lattes that conservatives get mad at (in general theres a lot of queer vegan women with pronouns and colourful hair on hexbear); they’re defining liberal in the marxist sense in that its people who support capitalism but arent currently fascists, so this includes conservatives, neoliberals, social democrats, and all sorts in it. Their comment seems to be applying more specifically to the ideologically committed liberals as opposed to mostly apolitical people who just say, “oh yeah i guess i;ll vote democrat this time” once every 4 years and have that be the extent of their politcal consciousness
It’s nonsense statements like this that should provide the answer to OP’s question. When push came to shove in WW2, liberalism in the US, UK, and elsewhere sided with communism against fascism.
I wouldn’t be a fan of a nazi or islamist instance either. One for communists is hardly any different as far I’m concerned. They’re all groups of extremists that I don’t want anything to do with. Just look at the modlog of this instance for example. Exhibit B is the fact that this message will get deleted in couple hours and I’ll likely be banned.
‘American Liberal’ is more extreme than any of the above
Just to clarify, you believe “American Liberal” is more extreme than Nazis?
Do we want to count the number of genocides Americans have supported since just 1900, compared to the Nazis only pulling one? 'Cause I’ve got the Americans responsible for the genocide of every indigenous tribe that originally held their land, the ongoing genocide of the Black community, genocide of the Mexicans that attempt to cross into the country while Biden’s atomization and sexual assault camps are still open on the border, genocide of the Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts, and genocide of the Palestinians-- so I’m definitely going to hedge my chips on the Americans being worse.
As it is, Hitler lifted his concepts of Lebensraum and Aryan purity from Manifest Destiny and Jim Crow Codes in the first place, so… Yeah, motherfuck America and motherfuck her vassals. Typical crackers taking offense at their crimes being listed off to them, though; why am I surprised? There’s no singular people in the world with less a sense of culpability or shame than Americans, other than maybe the Brits or the French-- both of whom have been vassalized by America in the first place.
Where do you think Hitler got the infulence to use the gas chambers?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1917_Bath_riots
America has sucsesfully carried out multiple genocides, as recently as a decade ago.
The Nazis failed, America didnt.
The article you linked is about brutal mistreatment and forced “disinfection” of people crossing a border. As horible as that is, do you truly believe that is the same scale of evil as systematic genocide?
I’m not American and that article doesn’t mention liberalism, so I’d appreciate it if you highlight the connection there too.
The article you linked is about brutal mistreatment and forced “disinfection” of people crossing a border. As horible as that is, do you truly believe that is the same scale of evil as systematic genocide?
I highlighted the part relevant in the reply above, to further explain America invented the gas chamber as a way to ‘medicalize’ executions and attempt to make them more ‘humane’. Hitler was inspired by this ‘scientific’ approach to executions that he replicated the design while carrying out his holocaust by using higher concentrations of Zyklon B, which in low doses acts as a disinfectant, and in high doses kills.
In regards to actual genocides though, Id point to the Korean War (they wanted to drop a nuke on Korea, even in South Korea american troops slaughtered 300,000+ civillians and then installed a military dictatorship) gulf war (2 million civallians dead) and Vietnam (Free fire zones, agent orange) as examples of genocides carried out last century/recently, and then obviously the founding genocide of the Native American population.
Also I would say that given America has the highest prison population, in the history of mankind; of which are mostly political prisoners arrested on drug charges, or as a consequence of the drug war (a political war), the ongoing genocide of black americans is yet to be resolved.
I think you may have quoted the wrong thing. The section you highlighted above states that clothing was fumigated with the same gas later used by Nazis to exterminate prisoners, it makes no mention of it being a way to “medicalize” or make exeuctions “humane”.
Again, I’m not American so I’d appreciate it if you highlighted how this is related to “American Liberaism” which you initially criticised. As it is it appears you’re assuming whatever actions the someone in power in America takes is “American Liberalism”, I’m not sure that’s something I agree with.
I think you may have quoted the wrong thing. The section you highlighted above states that clothing was fumigated with the same gas later used by Nazis to exterminate prisoners, it makes no mention of it being a way to “medicalize” or make exeuctions “humane”.
That came after these experiments on the Mexican border, id encourage you review the history of execution methods in the US, heres a good video on it but feel free to research it, you will find im right.
Again, I’m not American so I’d appreciate it if you highlighted how this is related to “American Liberaism” which you initially criticised. As it is it appears you’re assuming whatever actions the someone in power in America takes is “American Liberalism”, I’m not sure that’s something I agree with.
Liberalism is the dominating ideology in America, its the one that instituted aperthied and slavery against black people, deported all the communists and climbed to the top of the shit pile that is US politics; you only vote for one of two neo-liberal parties in America, so calling it ‘American Liberalism’ in reference to americans actions is accurate.
If a communist isn’t hated by the capitalist establishment, he isn’t a real communist. (I do not imply that being hated by the establishment alone qualifies you to be a communist)
And the remainder of lemmy is the capitalist establishment?
Nah, you’re wannabes who will never hold enough capital to count, which is why we slag you when you dig in your heels in the first place. There’s nothing more simultaneously sad or funny than ‘temporarily embarrassed’ capitalists with no capital; especially when you haven’t even bothered scrubbing the Oxford polish off your lips before fixing them to talk to us. You are footsoldiers of chauvinist racism, colonial genocide, and climate apocalypse, and you will be the death of all of us.
With all that in mind, what makes you think you or yours are owed any respectful dialogue?
- Full of insults and yet- asks others how they think they’re owned respectful dialogue.
THIS Is the perfect example of the children in Lemmygrad and Hexbear.
