The last point could be argued, most people say/mean “proud of being their friend/brother/whatever”, and having mutual esteem with someone does take a degree of agency. It’s obviously moot if you have family ties with them but they hate you, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen people being proud of achievements of people who hate them.
The rest I agree, it feels weird unnecessary tribalism most of the time.
When people talk about “LGBT Pride”, they’re not talking about the “a feeling of deep pleasure or satisfaction derived from one’s own achievements” definition, they’re talking about the “confidence and self-respect as expressed by members of a group, typically one that has been socially marginalized” definition.
It’s almost like words can have more than one meaning.
I would argue otherwise. Prides have always had a political aspect and part of that was a way to get a sense of numbers. Suppression of LGBTQ identities by early “support” groups encouraged narratives of it being rare, that it is natural to be lonely and shut away without a community. If you are small as a minority you tend to be meek and hide. Gay hook up spots were designed to hide people so true numbers were often impossible to have any notion of how many people were actually there. Some were just utterly flabbergasted by the numbers when police raids caused everyone to flee at once… But the news the next morning would make it sound like there was only a handful.
Consolidation and visibility, the understanding of strength in numbers has always been a factor of Pride. So to has been education and safety campaigns. While it has been a place to acknowledge the dead and bring hope to those who are afraid to be out it is absolutely for those at the festivities itself too.
I think of Pride as an acceptance of your sexuality, whatever it may be. The pride in question is a self esteem that comes from being comfortable in who you are.
Well when they have different meanings for everyone then what good are they? I often feel like when you point out things like the OP here, there’s a moving of the goal posts, or no true Scotsman-ing, what goes for one doesn’t go for the other. It’s an interesting question, why is it ok to be proud of your sexuality, which you have no control over, but not be ok to be proud of your color of skin, which you also have no control over?
Just redefining terms ad hoc depending on which side one happens to identify with makes the whole conversation suspect.
In the abstract, yes, but when a group of people is oppressed because of one of those identifiers, it stops just being a born trait. It also identifies that you’re oppressed. Celebrating who you are with regards to that kind of trait (sexuality, sex, race, etc) isn’t a celebration of being born a certain way. It’s a celebration of self acceptance, and an act of rebellion.
You aren’t proud of what you were born with, you’re proud of what you were born with, because some people have tried to punish you for that what.
We can add college in there. Choice of college means next to nothing about someone’s intellect and personality. Usually it’s just rich and/or “legacy” people getting into the prestigious schools. They are almost always pushed into it, or convinced into it by others.
I don’t get it. Why would one be? The whole point of pride is to in some sense feel and experience joy over the things that we like about ourselves or that stand out in a positive way. But maybe I’m missing something.
It’s weird to have pride in race if you experience no adversity because of it. Since white people don’t face the same kind of challenges white pride just feels like “I’m proud of my privilege”, whereas with black pride it’s more “I’m proud of who I am despite the challenges I face because of it”. Same goes for other things like LGBT pride, it’s celebrating who they are even if it cause them a lot of hardship.
Couldn’t it be sort of an affiliation with the full history of the White Man, for better or for worse? I don’t take pride in my skin color, but it does represent a fascinating time in human history and early human migration. This is purely academic of course, no actual person who says they are “proud of being white” would ever say that or likely even be aware of the history and the science, but it could be.
The problem lies in the definition of “pride”. You can be proud of who you are without comparing yourself to others. You can be proud of who you are without thinking less of others, or treat them as inferiors. In fact I’d say it’s mandatory but not everyone gets that.
Not sure where I’m going with this, not arguing for or against per se, just exploring the concept because it’s complex, interesting, and sadly ever so topical.
It’s all semantics either way, just treat people with kindness and respect, and then you can be proud of who you are. That said, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with being “proud” of ones features or traits. For instance, I have very blue eyes that have passed down through a ridiculous number of generations (n.b. not the exact same set), and I’m “proud” of them, in the sense that I’m glad I have them, that they remind me of my heritage and ancestry and family, and I hope that they will pass on to my offspring. I won’t cry myself to sleep if they don’t, but I think it’s “nice”.
Is there something wrong with me feeling this way? I don’t think so. How could it be? It’s nobody’s business how I feel about my eyes. I go out of my way to treat people with kindness and respect, and I am proud of that. But also the eye thing.
Maybe that’s the problem, perhaps we should just stop nagging and lecturing each other on our identities and preferences all the god damned time. Aren’t you all tired of it also?
I just find it weird, like astrology or ultras, idk.
I think you accidentally hit the nail on the head there. When you and I feel proud of our features, we are proud over the features themselves- not proud of identifying as part of the group of “all blue eyed people” or “all weird hair quirk people”.
It’s the affiliation with, to a greater or lesser extent, some group, and that group’s interests:
As a proud blue-eyed person, I couldn’t care less about what all other blue-eyed persons think, and unless there’d be fewer than a thousand left of us I couldn’t even conceive of any collective agenda such a group might have had.
As a proud black person, I would be highly motivated to care about and affiliate with all other black persons, because they would share experiences with me, and to a great extent negative or hateful.
As a proud homosexual, I would likewise affiliate with others of my kind or who have had similar experiences.
Even as a proud Ultras member, I can see how you would affiliate like so, even if the reason for it would rest on an artificial division between some arbitrary group- belonging to Ultras is not a physical trait, it’s made up, but there at least is some rationale.
As a proud white person? If white people were selectively persecuted, I sure as hell would affiliate with them, but they aren’t.
I’ve always thought being “proud” of your race, any race, is a weird concept.
Like, you didn’t do anything to be white, or black, or asian. Why would you take pride in something you had no agency in?
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The last point could be argued, most people say/mean “proud of being their friend/brother/whatever”, and having mutual esteem with someone does take a degree of agency. It’s obviously moot if you have family ties with them but they hate you, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen people being proud of achievements of people who hate them.
The rest I agree, it feels weird unnecessary tribalism most of the time.
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When people talk about “LGBT Pride”, they’re not talking about the “a feeling of deep pleasure or satisfaction derived from one’s own achievements” definition, they’re talking about the “confidence and self-respect as expressed by members of a group, typically one that has been socially marginalized” definition.
It’s almost like words can have more than one meaning.
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I would argue otherwise. Prides have always had a political aspect and part of that was a way to get a sense of numbers. Suppression of LGBTQ identities by early “support” groups encouraged narratives of it being rare, that it is natural to be lonely and shut away without a community. If you are small as a minority you tend to be meek and hide. Gay hook up spots were designed to hide people so true numbers were often impossible to have any notion of how many people were actually there. Some were just utterly flabbergasted by the numbers when police raids caused everyone to flee at once… But the news the next morning would make it sound like there was only a handful.
Consolidation and visibility, the understanding of strength in numbers has always been a factor of Pride. So to has been education and safety campaigns. While it has been a place to acknowledge the dead and bring hope to those who are afraid to be out it is absolutely for those at the festivities itself too.
And then everyone clapped.
I think of Pride as an acceptance of your sexuality, whatever it may be. The pride in question is a self esteem that comes from being comfortable in who you are.
Well when they have different meanings for everyone then what good are they? I often feel like when you point out things like the OP here, there’s a moving of the goal posts, or no true Scotsman-ing, what goes for one doesn’t go for the other. It’s an interesting question, why is it ok to be proud of your sexuality, which you have no control over, but not be ok to be proud of your color of skin, which you also have no control over?
Just redefining terms ad hoc depending on which side one happens to identify with makes the whole conversation suspect.
In the abstract, yes, but when a group of people is oppressed because of one of those identifiers, it stops just being a born trait. It also identifies that you’re oppressed. Celebrating who you are with regards to that kind of trait (sexuality, sex, race, etc) isn’t a celebration of being born a certain way. It’s a celebration of self acceptance, and an act of rebellion.
You aren’t proud of what you were born with, you’re proud of what you were born with, because some people have tried to punish you for that what.
We can add college in there. Choice of college means next to nothing about someone’s intellect and personality. Usually it’s just rich and/or “legacy” people getting into the prestigious schools. They are almost always pushed into it, or convinced into it by others.
It’s a participation prize. Congratulations, you were born.
I “proud” of my poor eye sight, and and “proud” of my genetic high cholesterol 🎊🔥💯
I don’t get it. Why would one be? The whole point of pride is to in some sense feel and experience joy over the things that we like about ourselves or that stand out in a positive way. But maybe I’m missing something.
It’s weird to have pride in race if you experience no adversity because of it. Since white people don’t face the same kind of challenges white pride just feels like “I’m proud of my privilege”, whereas with black pride it’s more “I’m proud of who I am despite the challenges I face because of it”. Same goes for other things like LGBT pride, it’s celebrating who they are even if it cause them a lot of hardship.
Couldn’t it be sort of an affiliation with the full history of the White Man, for better or for worse? I don’t take pride in my skin color, but it does represent a fascinating time in human history and early human migration. This is purely academic of course, no actual person who says they are “proud of being white” would ever say that or likely even be aware of the history and the science, but it could be.
The problem lies in the definition of “pride”. You can be proud of who you are without comparing yourself to others. You can be proud of who you are without thinking less of others, or treat them as inferiors. In fact I’d say it’s mandatory but not everyone gets that.
Not sure where I’m going with this, not arguing for or against per se, just exploring the concept because it’s complex, interesting, and sadly ever so topical.
If you belong to a group that has been historically oppressed, being proud of your race/culture is a sign of rebellion.
It’s all semantics either way, just treat people with kindness and respect, and then you can be proud of who you are. That said, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with being “proud” of ones features or traits. For instance, I have very blue eyes that have passed down through a ridiculous number of generations (n.b. not the exact same set), and I’m “proud” of them, in the sense that I’m glad I have them, that they remind me of my heritage and ancestry and family, and I hope that they will pass on to my offspring. I won’t cry myself to sleep if they don’t, but I think it’s “nice”.
Is there something wrong with me feeling this way? I don’t think so. How could it be? It’s nobody’s business how I feel about my eyes. I go out of my way to treat people with kindness and respect, and I am proud of that. But also the eye thing.
Maybe that’s the problem, perhaps we should just stop nagging and lecturing each other on our identities and preferences all the god damned time. Aren’t you all tired of it also?
I can relate, I also have a weird hair quirk my grandma had as well, I like it and I’m glad I have it, but I wouldn’t really say I’m “proud” of it.
Yes, in the end it’s all semantics and there’s nothing really “wrong” with it, I just find it weird, like astrology or ultras, idk.
I think you accidentally hit the nail on the head there. When you and I feel proud of our features, we are proud over the features themselves- not proud of identifying as part of the group of “all blue eyed people” or “all weird hair quirk people”.
It’s the affiliation with, to a greater or lesser extent, some group, and that group’s interests:
As a proud blue-eyed person, I couldn’t care less about what all other blue-eyed persons think, and unless there’d be fewer than a thousand left of us I couldn’t even conceive of any collective agenda such a group might have had.
As a proud black person, I would be highly motivated to care about and affiliate with all other black persons, because they would share experiences with me, and to a great extent negative or hateful.
As a proud homosexual, I would likewise affiliate with others of my kind or who have had similar experiences.
Even as a proud Ultras member, I can see how you would affiliate like so, even if the reason for it would rest on an artificial division between some arbitrary group- belonging to Ultras is not a physical trait, it’s made up, but there at least is some rationale.
As a proud white person? If white people were selectively persecuted, I sure as hell would affiliate with them, but they aren’t.