Mike Dulak grew up Catholic in Southern California, but by his teen years, he began skipping Mass and driving straight to the shore to play guitar, watch the waves and enjoy the beauty of the morning. “And it felt more spiritual than any time I set foot in a church,” he recalled.
Nothing has changed that view in the ensuing decades.
“Most religions are there to control people and get money from them,” said Dulak, now 76, of Rocheport, Missouri. He also cited sex abuse scandals in Catholic and Southern Baptist churches. “I can’t buy into that,” he said.
I don’t mind people going to Church and practicing their religion, as long as they stay in their lanes and they’re not trying to force their religious beliefs on everybody else. Trying to better yourself and your community is great, there’s a ton of really nice people out there who go to Church and are just all around good people. It’s all the assholes that think their belief trumps everyone else’s rights that need to eat shit.
Not minding your own business is pretty much why Europeans settled North America…
The Pilgrims love to say they escaped persecution, but really they were far right extremists who were all pissed off most of Europe wouldn’t follow their strict rules.
So they came to America and started pumping out as many kids as possible. With the goal to become the majority so they could force everyone to follow their rules.
We’re worse off because there’s no more “empty” land to send them all too. If we ever colonize another planet, it’s 100% going to be extremists overwhelmingly signing up to go first. Until then, we’re stuck with them.
The sun would be a good place, plenty of space.
None of my family were pilgrims. I don’t think you can just ignore the tens of millions of immigrants from Europe who weren’t pilgrims
Would they have came here if the pilgrims didn’t first?
Like, not just “would they have wanted to” but would the Native population have repopulated the shoreline by then and repelled any settlers like they did the vikings?
The pilgrims were successful at gaining a foothold because they showed up in a place and time the local population had mostly just died off from sickness and the survivors initially helped the pilgrims.
50 years later, even 20 or 10 years later and it would be a different story.
The Pilgrims didn’t come here first (of the Europeans). They were beaten by multiple different European groups.
Like, not just “would they have wanted to” but would the Native population have repopulated the shoreline by then and repelled any settlers like they did the vikings?
I don’t know. Why don’t you ask the French traders that came before or the Spanish pushing upwards from the entire continent they had control over?
The pilgrims were successful at gaining a foothold because they showed up in a place and time the local population had mostly just died off from sickness and the survivors initially helped the pilgrims.
Not relevant to your argument. Also I am fairly confident you are mixing up the Pilgrims and the Purtains. But hey facts don’t matter anymore so believe whatever you want.
When you make comments like that, people stop trying to help you…
Although I’ve noticed a trend where people like you assume they “win” when the other person gives up helping you. Just a heads up that’s not what it means.
Oh that is what you call it. “Helping”. Cute.
“Staying in your lane” is the exact opposite of what Christians and Muslims are explicitly ordered to do. Convert acquisition is the primary objective of both faiths.
The Bible says if a family member considers another religion (or you just suspect they are) it’s your duty to God to kill them before it spreads to other people in your family.
It’s why ill never trust the people who claim they have to follow the bible literally. Either they don’t know what it says, or they’re absolute psychos.
Edit:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy 13:6-10&version=KJV
6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;
8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the Lord thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage
Well, I heard somewhere that it is written in the bible that those who scorn the bible will be visited by apocalypse, fire, earthquake, and flood which will obliterate your cities, but for those who believe in the bible will save themselves and find true redemption.
And I also heard somewhere it may have also stated in the Bible that the power and the greatness of God cannot be denied. Those who reject the Path to enlightenment must be destroyed.
Quote from the Bible?
It talks to Jews in ancient Israel about gods of nations that surrounded them.
Oh…
So some of it is outdated and we shouldn’t follow the bible literally?
I already don’t, you better go tell the Christians to shut the fuck up about LGBTQ…
Good job on discovering dispensationalism. About LGBT, there isn’t a single place in Bible, old or new testament where isn’t put in a positive light
About LGBT, there isn’t a single place in Bible, old or new testament where isn’t put in a positive light
It’s hard to tell what you were trying to say, but any attempt to clarify that is going to make it really easy to point out how wrong you are.
So I don’t expect you to even try
Btw:
For anyone wondering what “dispensationalism” means, it’s a thing Christians invented so they can ignore the parts of the bible that they don’t agree with. While saying the parts they do believe in are the literal words of God and have to be followed.
It’s a shitty cop out
About LGBT, there isn’t a single place in Bible, old or new testament where isn’t put in a positive light
That’s just simple not true.
In the old testament it says that all homosexuals must be killed, and in the new testament that homosexuals cannot go to heaven.
How is that a positive light?
The Bible does not say that. What.
Huh, til
Exactly this.
Dont forget the part about having as many children as possible and convert them too.
There is no religion telling their servants to love their children even if they are not religious.
Honestly while I get that the whole “you do you” mantra is the politically appropriate line these days…
No, I’m fucking not ok with people practicing their religions.
I’m really not ok with people telling their children that it’s not only possible for dead bodies to get back up and float up into the sky, but that it 100% happened and is the only reason they aren’t going to suffer eternally.
I’ll not ok with getting together to talk about how men are inherently better than women and that it was fine that an old dude raped a 9 year old because she was mature for her age.
I’m not ok with passing along the instructions that who your parents were defines an appropriate social caste for the rest of your life based on the supposed mechanics of resurrection.
These are not appropriate things for a modern society, and honestly I’m tired of pretending that it is fine.
Yes, I think the right to have the government not interfere in religion is important, but that’s a separate issue from whether or not I’m ‘fine’ with the superstitions from an age when people peed on their hands to clean them continuing to be given a social pass purely out of respect for ancestral tradition.
I wouldn’t say I mind it but like seeing someone passed out from drug use I would rather they didn’t do that.
They need to start paying taxes too. Church is a business of graft.
The thing is the whole purpose of religion is to force beliefs into others to attract them into the religion and make them pay money. THAT’S LITERALLY WHY RELIGIONS WERE INVENTED.
There is no “Im religious but I let other live their lifes.” They are constantly being told to invite friends and family to convert them and to have 10 children, so the children can be converted too.
Instead of having anti lgbt protests, or anti abortion protests, we should really start having anti religion protests. They are really a cancer to society.
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Exactly. Live and let live. Except religious groups are not letting other live their lifes.
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The problem is they are still part of the same group.
If there is an anti lgbt protest organized by christians or muslims or whatever, sure im not saying 100% of all christians and muslims are there, but even if its 1% of the christians or muslims, these 1% are still in church with the rest of the christians or muslims, and the remaining 99% are not doing anything about it. They are not coning out and saying “That 1% of religious people are not a part of us”. They all care is about growing their religious groups, and anything else doesn’t matter.
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First of all, I dont associate myself with people doing bad things to others. It’s really easy to do honestly. I recommend you to do it too.
Second, are you saying is ok for religious people to be antilgbt because other people are part of some group, by choice or not, that associates with people doing things you, or others, think is evil?
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We tried New Atheism That shit is toxic
I’ve heard about the “rise of the nones” for fucking years now. I’m in my mid 30s. When the fuck will this trend translate into policy reform
When the all 80+ year olds in congress
retiredie outYep.
Doesn’t matter how religious voters are when the options are both hardcore Christian.
Like, Biden not being actively anti-abortion was enough to get American bishops to start talking if they should try and get every Catholic church in America to refuse to give him communion.
He’s still not really pro-abortion, and we’ll never really know if that’s because his incredibly organized church is against it, or if he just doesn’t care enough to push for codifying abortion rights.
He’s the most high profile because he’s president, but lots of House Reps and Senators are in the same boat.
Organising nones is like herding cats. The evangelicals do not get their power from their number. They vote uniformly and reliably, turning out for every primary, local, and federal election.
We are a diverse bunch with diverse opinions.
I’ve been a none for a bit now, and often find myself disagreeing with the opinions of others. I also tend to be more centrist in my political leanings, whereas a lot (obviously not all) of nones or atheists tend to lean left, or in some cases are extreme leftists. In my opinion, extreme leftists are as harmful to society as the extreme right, but that’s a pretty unpopular opinion online.
Long story short, I agree with you on this.
The moment we start voting
When the nones outnumber the religious which is still a while away.
The problem is that as moderate critical thinkers leave religious organizations the organizations are becoming more polarized by the foolhardy remnants which leads to large organizational efforts to do stupid nonsensical things.
This is a question of attrition. Religiosity is dying out and so, in a sense, is neo-conservativism, and that’s why there is such a huge push to the right in many parts of the world. It’s the last desperate gasp of people who know that their time is up. They are doing everything they can to stop it from happening but it’s inevitable.
Around the time the majority of our lawmakers learned about the Vietnam war in a history book.
I think the only thing we lose is community – I’m jealous that religious people automatically have that.
The solution of course is trying to return to having neighborhood communities.
Join a bowling league.
Do anything every week with the same group and you’ll establish that same community…but without the grifting and shaming.
Instructions unclear, now stuck in MLM organization with grifting and shaming. :D
But I’m introverted and my hobbies are video games :c
Exactly I started playing pool at a local hall right by my house. Great way of meeting new people.
Getting out and doing stuff in public is a great way of communicating.
You’re outta your element Donnie!
I’m telling you from experience that their “community” is fake. The people are fake. Under the fake stuff that looks nice on the outside is a deep culture of judgment and shame and fear. It’s not any community I would ever want. Like family get together for family’s that hate each other but they fake it.
To those who will try to tell me “well not ME or MY church.” I don’t care and I don’t believe you. I have been harmed too much too consistently by these groups.
There are for sure exceptions to this. But by and large this is absolutely spot on in my experience. It feels like getting together with paid actors that are hired to be your friend or sell you sometime in the end sometimes.
Yeah I guess there’s an inherent danger with a community where going against groupthink is a sin
Like posting an unpopular opinion on Reddit or Lemmy. You’ll get down voted to hell if your opinion differs from the majority in that sub.
That’s just unpopular opinions, and I’ve made plenty of those before. It’s very different from doing something that my community thinks is a cosmic sin that will send me to hell.
Under the fake stuff that looks nice on the outside is a deep culture of judgment and shame and fear.
Funny, that’s what Christianity seems to be mostly about anyway.
They really don’t. I grew up Evangelical, trust me, community was the last thing on those people’s minds. Granted, I understand where you’re coming from; there should be more communal spaces that don’t have religion as a requirement.
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All I want is separation of church and state, like it’s supposed to be.
Even according to Jesus
Jesus is a real G compared to supply side right wing Jesus. If he ever does return, we’ll kill him again because he won’t be relatable to the rich.
Even if that dude were to return, he’d take one look at the modern day Pharisees his followers have become and think of the adage “burn me once, shame on you, burn me twice, shame on me” and keep his mouth shut this time around.
It turns out that no, in fact there was no one with two good ears in the crowd after all, and only a fool would make that mistake twice.
Or, you know, we could just ditch the church part entirely. Playing pretend about your favorite book is okay as a hobby I guess, but it doesn’t deserve government sanction or protection.
I say this as someone who went to religious school until 9th grade, and was deeply involved in church through 12th grade.
Read charitably, the Christian Bible is a bunch of fantasy role-playing bullshit. Read realistically, anything not attributed directly to Jesus is a bunch of pedantic repressive bullshit, with the occasional nice axiom thrown in (“grey hair is the splendor of the old” etc). The Apostle Paul, for example, was the original TCOT, and would be a megachurch pastor today. He just loved telling everyone how to live.
Jesus - if he actually existed - went into temples with a whip and literally started flipping tables. Today, he’d be exiled from the church his followers founded because he’s too “liberal” and “weak.”
Religion, and in particular the vast cult of that is American Evangelical Christianity, has no place in the modern world. If there is a God, they only take us further from him. It’s a tax-free business built on graft and hatred, which they relabel as “tolerance” and “love.”
Cut off the tax-exempt status of any church or ministry that speaks to a political end (e.g. “Julie Green Ministries”). If they’re really that altruistic and pure of heart with clarity of purpose, it shouldn’t stop their mission.
There is nothing special about expert knowledge in the fantasy world of the 1st and 2nd centuries. Theology is strictly a study of invented bullshit, with the aim of subjugating others. Even majoring in Harry Potter or the Star Wars Expanded Universe would be of greater benefit to society.
Religion has no positive use.
I don’t mind organized religion. What I do hate is that religion pushing their beliefs onto everyone they meet, pushing their religion beliefs throughout school systems, etc. If religious can keep to themselves, I see it like yoga or CrossFit.
A crossfit trainer, an ex-marine, and a born-again christian all walk into a bar.
We know that, because they won’t stop telling everyone.
I’m surprised this comment has lasted 6 hours without anyone saying “there’s no such thing as an ex-marine”
I, too, am disappointed by the lack of offended ex-marine comments.
why ?
Because SEMPER FI !!! OOORAH!!
Clearly, you haven’t met crossfitters
Clearly you don’t own an airfryer
Or an instapot!
No, but my wife wants us to :(
Don’t give in. Just get a good oven for everything and it’s the same
Obviously you’re not a golfer
Or a bidet
IDK about equalizing religion and yoga. At minimum, the yoga exercises seem pretty useful for getting a flexible and healthy body, and (judeo-christian) religous ceremonies are mostly just a reason for people to get together, which many other activities can do as well.
The positives that people get from religion are mostly about the feeling of being part of a community, with their own lore, rules, codex and ceremonies. Just like DnD groups, with the major difference that some members actually belief all of that stuff, which is spooky and dangerous, because that opens these people to all sorts of other crazy ideas.
I mind the normalization of magical thinking. It’s the same reason I bristle at astrology and tarot and luck charms.
And that has a whole bunch of negative consequences, because these people won’t listen to reason if it inconveniences them
Unfortunately you can’t have religion without people trying to evangelize. It’s part of the problem.
But… you can. It already exists
That’s not correct. Where I live, religion is intertwined with daily life and yet nobody ever tried to talk me into anything
Agreed
Atheism and science are also a type of religious belief. Ultimately, as long as someone isn’t hurting anyone else or trying to force their beliefs on others, I don’t care what they believe.
lmao
Atheism? Sure some New Atheist branches practice it like a faith
Science? It’s a tool for measuring things… it is about as much of a religion as a ruler
Science? It’s a tool for measuring things… it is about as much of a religion as a ruler
It’s not, it’s a system that seeks to understand our world at a deeper level and predict future events.
It’s funny you mention that, though, because it brings up one of the difficulties in science. Measurements we base our scientific theories on rely on instruments, most of which themselves rely on other theories for reliable operation and interpretation of data.
One philosopher of science famously brought up the analogy of a surveyor who doesn’t understand magnetism. He attempts to use a compass as a surveying tool near some hidden source of magnetic field. Without understanding of the underlying principles of magnetism and local magnetic field, he would assume the compass unfailingly points north and the resulting measurements of the local geography would be wrong. Those flawed measurements might then be used by geologists, leading to the development of theories supported by flawed data.
There is always a degree of uncertainty in the instruments we use to develop and test our hypotheses because there is no such thing as certain knowledge in science. However, at some point we simply put faith in the scientific method and presume that our underlying theories are sufficiently accurate for our purposes and proceed accordingly.
Your surveyor story sounds like something a christian apologist would say, or someone who doesn’t know the difference between science and religion.
Even stone age people knew the difference between East and West. If a surveyor incorrectly used a compass his work could still be verified by looking at a goddamn sunrise. If the surveyor ignored the conflicting data and, as you say “put his faith in his instruments”, it ceases to be the scientific method and becomes dogmatic fanaticism.
Do you not understand what a thought experiment is? It’s an exaggerated example to better illustrate a concept, in this case the concept that reliable calibration and use of instruments is itself based on some underlying theory of operation.
Even stone age people knew the difference between East and West. If a surveyor incorrectly used a compass his work could still be verified by looking at a goddamn sunrise. If the surveyor ignored the conflicting data and, as you say “put his faith in his instruments”, it ceases to be the scientific method and becomes dogmatic fanaticism.
If it helps you understand the concept, imagine that the source of error is very weak, only disturbing the compass by a few degrees at any given location.
Doubt
Could you expand your thoughts on this?
I’m always curious when this is said as to what is meant when Atheism and science are called religious.
Sure. To be clear, I’m an engineer and an atheist so I don’t mean it to attack either Athiesm or science by any means.
To start with, we cannot get true knowledge of the world outside ourselves by sensory perception alone. Rather, the way we interpret our sensory inputs is by applying it to some metaphysical framework of how we believe the outside world works.
As a small example, Descartes famously brought up analogy of a melting candle. A totally naive person being born into existence would see melted wax and hardened wax as two different substances. Sensory perception alone would lie to this person. Only by interpreting it through this metaphysical framework do we come to the conclusion that melted wax and hardened wax are the same thing at different temperatures.
This extends to deeper concepts that we can’t directly explain by our experience alone. At some point we stop using our own direct experience and expand our metaphysical framework using something else.
The thing that springs from that “something else” is religion, and in many instances it doesn’t necessarily encompass a concept of divinity or worship. In abrahamic religions it is the Judeo-Christian god. In Daoism it’s the belief in the Dao, an unexplainable force tied to the events of the natural world. In science it’s belief in the scientific method’s ability to produce objective truth with sufficient cooperation and experimentation. They’re all models of the outside world that stem from something beyond a single individuals sensory perception.
I used to have that really common thought of “I don’t care what you believe in. Just don’t try to push your opinion on me.”
No. It’s bullshit.
The very existence of religion is a psychological drain on society. We are all worse off the longer it stays around. There is no such thing as a good religious person and anyone who says they are religious I immediately distrust.
Yeah. It’s at the root of a lot of the problems with conservatives in the US. Religion trains people in believing because they were told to believe, and holding to these beliefs in the face of all suffering and hardship. It’s a gateway drug to conspiracy theories and paranoid delusions.
I don’t immediately distrust religious people but I do kind of roll my eyes and smirk a little bit on the inside.
If I’m lucky I can manage to keep the eyeroll and smirk on the inside. I’m kind of inelegant with social graces though.
There is no such thing as a good religious person
I’ve known extremely religious people that were very kind to everyone around them, only focused on doing good in the world, and never pushed their beliefs on anyone else. “Good” and “evil” are very reductive and simplistic terms. Good people can have beliefs that are not good for society and they are not completely defined by that. If we go to that absolute then there isn’t a good person that exists. Pretty much everyone harbors beliefs, irrespective of religion, that when examined may be detrimental to society, they just don’t know their own blind spots.
Well said. Though I will say that we need to stop giving religions passes for bigotry.
Churches in the US get huge tax breaks, can set up explicitly racist schools, or they can operate worse than the worst MLM. Some of the followers are somewhat to blame, but really it’s the organizations as a whole that need to be revisited.
Why should my tax dollars subsidize a church building where the pastor tells their congregation that people like me are an evil that should be purged from society? Why should they subsidize a pastor that has a private jet? Or a church that actively protects child abusers and/or wife beaters?
And frankly, it’s only certain religions that receive these sort of benefits. Any sort of native religion or niche religion won’t get half the benefits we give to multimillion dollar religions.
I’ve known extremely religious people that were very kind to everyone around them, only focused on doing good in the world
Being religious is not a requirement for doing good in the world. If the religion did not exist these extremely religious people you know could continue to do good in the world while not simultaneously supporting organizations that enable corruption, abuse, dishonesty, violence, oppression, etc, etc…
If anyone is still believing in these hokey stories or exploitative organizations they are either willfully ignorant to the world around them, gullible rubes who are victims of a centuries old scam, or actively benefitting from that exploitation.
I stand by my statements. Religion is a virus. It’s a net negative in the world that stands in the way of all human progress.
I was responding to you saying “there’s no such thing as a good religious person”. I don’t really disagree with the rest of your perspective, yet your arguing as if you assume I do. I think it’s reductive and crass to judge someone on a single data point. That was my primary point.
As a gay person, I have a saying that is similar: “When I meet someone who says they are conservative, I know that I have just met someone who wants me to suffer.”
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What is it you hate so much about religion? I could see disliking specific religious practices, but what problem does every religion share that makes you immediately distrust all religious people?
That’s actually a little frightening, please refrain from making such blanket statements like this one. Surely a part of you must know this is wrong
I couldn’t agree more with the statement made. People who believe in fairy tales can’t be fully trusted.
Well, that’s very short-sighted and factually incorrect. I wish you meet more people and your outlook changes
I think it is somewhat hard to change my outlook at this point. My reasoning is that truly devout religious people have been infected with a mind virus. They may be nice people or pretend to be nice people, but there is also the mind virus, which is ultimately not trust worthy. In general, if hard decisions need to be made by a third party that potentially have a big impact on my life I’d not fully trust a religious person.
In daily life I am very friendly with a bunch of religious people, but I mistrust the religious part of them.
When your congregation are loud bigots, racists, and assholes, or when your clergy fuck kids and cover it up, or when the religion as a whole surpresses or hates certain genders or sexualities… This is not a surprising trend at all to anyone reasonable.
Growing up in a super religious family and watching all the nonsense up close is why I’m an atheist today. SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE MOTHERFUCKERS
Hail Satan and donate to your local Satanic temple
Also grew up in a super religious family (homeschooled pk) and joined TST 4 years ago.
IMO brainwashing children from the time they’re born into a religion that spreads hate is wrong.
“Never do business with a religious son-of-a-bitch. His word ain’t worth a shit – not with the Good Lord telling him how to fuck you on the deal.”
― William S. Burroughs
Religious orgs are cancer, they also steal tax dollars by avoiding taxes, corrupt organizations and their mansions
Cancer is really a very good analogy. It is parasitic, self preserving, good for nothing, preys on the weak, always trying to expand and lure you deeper and total garbage.
Jim Jeffries said it best though:
Not just mansions but the private jets are ridiculous. Seriously, some megachurch “leaders” have private jets. Some plural as in they have more then one for themself. It’s sickening.
See: Joel Osteen
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=joel+osteen+private+jet&t=fpas&ia=web
The older I get the more angry the concept of God makes me. It’s hit the point where I hope I’m wrong, so when I die I can spit in his face and call Him a useless God
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There are approx. 4000 religions out there today. Most of them have a rule saying “our religion is the right one, believe in the wrong one and terrible things happen to you after you die”. If one of those is right and 3999 of them are wrong, what are the odds of anybody picking the right one? Most believers don’t even put in the effort and learn all about the other 3999 to be sure that the one they picked is likely to be correct. They’re just gambling with a tiny chance of avoiding “hell”.
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Unless the correct religion is one that is really harsh on people who believe in one of the heathen religions, but welcoming of non-believers who nevertheless live a good life.
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I just have more and more trouble believing that actual functional adults believe in this crap. My mom is one of them, and I keep boggling at her ideas.
Like, if she misplaces her keys then finds them, she thanks her god for finding them for her. Never blames it for hiding / losing the keys, of course. She’s absolutely confident that her beliefs match what her god wants, despite hers being picking and choosing from the various holy books. Her church isn’t quite mainstream for her religion. Her beliefs don’t quite match her church. But, of course, she’s right.
A family friend of hers is dying of dementia. He is non-verbal and can no longer feed himself. Soon he’ll have to be on a feeding tube because he’ll no longer be able to swallow. This, of course, is her god’s plan. He wants a nurse to have to handle his waste and feed him with a tube. But, naturally, her god doesn’t want those same medical professionals to assist someone in dying with dignity.
She also literally believes stories that are less believable than fairy tales. Apparently some holy person didn’t eat or drink for years! This other one healed people! Another one predicted future events! We know these are true because other people from that religion verified it, and if you can’t trust people of her religion, who can you trust?
How can an adult stop believing in things like Santa Claus and underpants gnomes, but keep believing in this religious stuff?
It’s about time. I have been fed up with religion since 1978.
Religion is cancer.
