After using LineageOS for long time, I have finally moved to GrapheneOS. I use a lot of banking and financial apps which I never felt comfortable using on LineageOS due to lack of proper sandboxing, unlocked bootloader etc.
GrapheneOS works flawlessly just like Android. You don’t even notice there’s hardening underneath. Also it protects from Google’s evil location tracking using WiFi/Bluetooth or even when the Location is turned off. I don’t understand how people in general are comfortable with Google tracking all the time. You can use Google Play and Play Services in a sandbox that works just like regular installation, but without deep tracking.
If you haven’t tried GrapheneOS, try it. You won’t go back to regular Android.
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For people looking to change and are worried about banks bullshit here is a link to a list of currently supported bank apps.
This is stupid helpful, thank you. I wouldn’t have thought to look this up on my own but now that I know it I’m a good bit more likely to try Graphene on my next phone. This is way more apps than I would have guessed.
My bank apps all work fine. Just keep your physical bank cards on you because Google Wallet won’t work with credit cards, NFC or transport passes. Your gig tickets and membership cards will load fine though.
You probably don’t want Google rummaging through your purchase history anyway. I certainly don’t miss it.
I personally have to toggle on Exploit protection compatibility mode in App info to get some of my banking apps to work
If they can get it to work on non-Google devices, I will consider it. Right now Graphene compatibility is extremely limited. Besides, I basically have to give Google money to avoid Google.
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Have people forgotten about the used market? Buying things second hand is the way.
Doesn’t change that this only runs on Pixel devices. I simply don’t want a Pixel device for various reasons. Used or not, Graphene won’t run officially on a Sony, a Fairphone, etc.
If the security benefits of a pixel is less important then the fact Google made it then GOS is simply not meant for you.
Its silly people complain about it being only compatible for pixels but never seem to blame other android brands for making significantly less secure phones. The responsibility should be put on phone makers to create secure phones that meet GOS requirements, not to expect GOS to make a less secure OS.
The whole AOSP environment is very Google centric so its pretty weird to think because your not buying a pixel that you are somehow avoiding Google.
I have more considerations than security, like a headphone jack and other details. But you have my upvote anyways, because you make a lot of sense. I agree with you. 🏅
I do agree that the lack of a headphone jack absolutely kills me. It’s a reason I haven’t pulled the trigger either way on a new phone yet. On the one hand, I want a secure degoogled phone that maintains a lot of functionality with GOS. On the other, I want a modern phone with a headphone jack a la Sony. I go back and forth constantly.
That’s fair, and the reasons why someone buys a phone is a personal choice.
I would suggest with things like a headphone jack that, while its annoying to buy an adapter (usb-c to headphone) it may be worth the cost vs sacrificing something like hardware security.
Sadly a lot of the time consumers are forced to choose between security and privacy or convenience.
still pricey as fuck in my country. barely any pixels here.
I’m always wary of buying second hand phones. How healthy is that battery going to be?
It is possible to replace them, with a little research. Or just taking them to a phone repair shop if you’re too anxious for that
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Buy a Pixel second hand. Then you’re just reimbursing someone who already made that mistake. ;)
Just research ahead and don’t buy one with a known hardware defect such as the 5As which are notorious for frying motherboards and screens. Went through 5 of them with the extended warranty over my phones life and they all died while in my hand abruptly. Less than a year or life per device almost always failing around 8 months for me.
If grapheneOS wasn’t so damn good I would’ve left pixels after that, Pixel XL abruptly died, 2XL had both cameras and the fingerprint sensor die out of nowhere, then the 4 5As. On an 8a right now and love it so fingers crossed it lasts!
If they had a user repairable device that ran it I’d buy it in a heartbeat
this
Like Google will bankrupt without my money. I’d rather remove their malware.
I would like to switch, but there are a couple of points that are still holding me back right now:
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Charge limits, on LOS I can root the phone, install ACC and still use the OTA updates, if I apply the patch afterwards. (Will be resolved in A15)
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Option for sandboxed MicroG, IMO privacy is also very important for security, and people should be able to decide if they like more privacy or more security.
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Option for rooting sandboxed apps from outside. IMO I, and a person, like to have full control over my phone. Trust often comes with control. If I choose to trust one app to have root access to another app in order to inspect it, then this should be possible. Sandboxing could allow one app to have root access to individually chosen other apps, thus limiting the impact compared to system-wide root access. Maybe offer rooting gated behind a separate hardware token authentication. (sudo like) A lot there can be improved IMO, while still providing it and making it more secure in general.
I know that my understanding of security and privacy might be different from what GrapheneOS understands, but as a long time Linux Admin, I don’t like black boxes, I like to peek into them, modify or patch them, when they do something I don’t want them to do, etc. So that when I enter personal information into them, I am still in control what happens to them, at least that is my desire.
Taking control away from the user in order to “improve security” might be a valid approach to some, but it is not something I have much trust in.
What are you contemplating switching from? Does your current OS meet those criteria?
I am currently using a rooted LOS with MicroG. It certainly is not as secure as GrapheneOS in terms of app sandboxing, encryption, regular security updates, etc., but I have control of the system, in case I need it, for instance ACC, F-droid privilege extension (F-Droid auto updates), ReVanced Manager (not using it currently) etc.
I trust GrapheneOS much more than Apple, but both go into a similar direction with their understanding of security. IMO taking control away from the user might be a good option, if you are dealing with just regular consumers, but I don’t really like the “one-size-fits-all” approach of it. And it is my device, I should be allowed to decide what I want to do with it.
BTW, this is just a personal annoyance of mine. The GrapheneOS devs do a very good job.
I didn’t realize GrapheneOS limited control like that. Thanks for sharing!
Like others already said, you can still root your GrapheneOS, there are two ways to do this:
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Just unlock your bootloader, flash Magisk or whatever, done. Disadvantages, you cannot lock your bootloader again, thus creating a huge security gap where an attacker, when gained physical access to your phone, overwrites your boot partition and you boot your compromised system without noticing. Which is bad, IMO.
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Recompile GrapheneOS with Magisk installed, signed it with that key and use this key in your bootloader to lock it. You essentially created a GrapheneOS fork, can no longer use their OTA update server and use the security updates, etc. You need to create this yourself.
Yeah, they don’t prevent you from doing it, the same as original ROMs don’t prevent you from doing it.
As someone that moved to Linux and has become accustom to full control of my system, I finally feel seen when it comes to GrapheneOS. Here’s to a native root solution down the road, your take a la sandboxing sounds nifty.
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I don’t mind giving graphene a try but I’ll be honest, I have the following issues:
- Need to buy a pixel phone for this.
- I use a memory card so pixel phones might not be an option.
- fear of bricking a phone that I just got.
It’s impossible to brick a Pixel while flashing GrapheneOS, thanks to their super easy to use Web-based installer, and Google’s great support for alternative operating systems, which also makes the installation process easier and safer.
If you mess anything up, you can always restart from the beginning and get it fixed. You can’t break a Pixel during flashing.Why not buy a used one? I plan on picking one up from ebay or something.
I can but the issue is that I won’t be using it. My current phone will be better than a used phone bought.
People contemplating moving to graphene, do be aware that banking etc. absolutely can be a major PITA on graphene as well. Several official apps used where i live cannot work in graphene, even with sandboxed play services installed, making day-to-day life functionally impossible with graphene. Luckily reverting to stock android is easy, although I probably wouldn’t have bought a pixel phone if I was planning on using stock OS.
“Making day to day life functionally impossible” is a bit drastic. I think that depends on each individual person, their needs both in terms of banking and privacy.
My banking app doesn’t work on Graphene but I also couldn’t care less. I can just as easily log in to my account via my browser on my phone if I need to do something and it isn’t exactly hard, it takes all of 30 seconds more than using an app.
I realise in some other countries you don’t have that option but were I in the same situation for me that would be enough to change banks, I don’t want to be forced to use an app for anything.
Everyone has different lengths they are willing to go to to protect their privacy and I’m willing to make my life slightly harder where as others may not but I think saying it makes life functionally impossible is a bit of an overstatement and it needs to be judged based on individual needs.
There is a list of what banking apps work and what don’t.I’ll post it in a top level comment for visibility.
The thing is, I’d need the government 2FA app (which doesn’t work in graphene) when logging in to my bank on a browser as well, so that doesn’t change anything.
And I can’t do anything, I can’t check my digital mailbox (not email, we have something specifically for official communication with bank, government etc.), I can’t log in to check messages from my kids school, I can’t order a doctors appointment…you get the picture.
Sounds like more of a problem with your government than GrapheneOS.
it’s a problem because graphene os doesn’t pass google play safety check, or whatever it is called. They are apparently not able to make the sandboxes play services good enough to pass so the app accepts it’s validity.
Yeah i understand what you are saying and that is why everyone’s individual needs come into play.
I don’t know what country you are in and that can obviously affect things, my banks 2FA is an SMS. I have options in terms of the other things you mentioned, where as you may not have.
Well, I never really missed being able to pay via NFC on a phone, but I also never done it. My NFC chip in my card works fine.
When my baking app started detecting my rooted phone, I just switched to using their web-app via Firefox, which allows you to create a direct link to it as an “App”. Which is probably better anyway, than installing random proprietary apps on a phone. And logging into it every time is also easy with a password manager.
So I guess, as long as the banks still offer a website, I am good.
Banking compatability by country. In my experience even banking apps not mentioned also work. https://privsec.dev/posts/android/banking-applications-compatibility-with-grapheneos/
honestly the only thing that is stopping me moving rn is Google Pay contactless for my bank cards and my bank app having ridiculous requirements with safetycheck.
Definitely go ahead and tell your bank that you are annoyed by their mobile app only working on the stock OS. Call them, send them an email, whatever. If enough people complain or even threaten to switch banks over this, they might add better support using actual secure hardware-based attestation, which also works on GrapheneOS.
I even switched banks because of their ridiculous requirements for the mobile app, just so I could continue using GrapheneOS. I know that Graphene is much more secure than any other Android-based OS, and running my banking app on it is much safer than on another device. Banks should finally realize this too, which is why we need to complain.
There’s also CalyxOS if you don’t want to run anything Google on your phone at all, but still have functional apps and such.
I mean, Graphene does that too, by default. It just has the app store available to be installed in their apps updater. If you don’t go there to install it by yourself, it’s a Google-less device by default.
Functional apps is the important bit, use of microG allows apps to provide push messaging etc without knowing Google services aren’t installed. There’s still some communication with Google as a result, but it’s fully sanitized.
I invite you to try installing common apps like Strava or Pokemon go without any Google services at all.
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I wish there was a way to keep Grapheneos installed and locked down without root, but with a way to adjust screen color. The only way I can tolerate pixel screen color reproduction is to root it and use an app to adjust it.
GraphmemeOS
