Trying to summarize your treatise, please correct if mistaken…
You’re saying that Dune doesn’t subvert the foreign Messiah due to the fact that Paul isn’t shown to be wrong. As discussed above, for plot reasons and due to prescience. He represents a different face of Western colonial expansion and since a hierarchical undercurrent is always present, the subversion doesn’t really happen.
Ugh, I agree. At least for his arc, it is shown to be a heavy burden but a necessary evil. It does propagate the idea “sometimes you just need to hand all power to one man who knows more than you”. My bad… I realize I may have been confusing the book and Villeneuve’s portrayal of Paul (hope you do get to see it one day!).
For my education (as I am curious to hear you’re thoughts [if you’ll humor me but no pressure]), I will try to push the “benefit of doubt” narrative and still try to justify Herbert a bit in regards to the pluralistic viewpoints you’ve laid out.
I get what you mean by seeing the broader context. The Fremen are shown to have a fluid government, more democratic than the Empire. They have more connection to the land, understand their shared history, value of life, value of resources and balance. I’m imagining a rosy native tribe close to nature, drugs and shit. Paul goes there, learns how they live, somewhat adopts their values and is free from the matrix.
If Paul is shown as narratively perfect, then the ‘indigenous’ views he carries are also weighed higher than the Imperial mindset. Yes nothing may have changed since the Fremen slotted into a hierarchical structure and paid for it, I think still Herbert acknowledged that indigenous views were ‘better’. A ‘civilized’ white man didn’t teach them a better way of living, instead he was corrupted to their way of thinking and worked with them to defeat the Empire.
As to wielding power and somewhat adopting a hierarchical mindset, I naively believe that intentions matter. In Paul’s example, he had the bestest of intentions. If there was no war, I think he would happily abdicate power, fulfill the dreams of the Fremen by giving them a healthy ecosystem and go live with his love (I would sidebar argue he actually loved Chaini and kept the princess as his concubine). I know power corrupts but what could he do other than fight for what he believed in… I know it’s all on trust and faith and lovey dovey stuff.
In your case, you acknowledge structures you’re complicit in and with what power you have, you are trying to nobly change for better. Yes wielding power can be done “humanely” by asking for permissions and consulting everyone before making decisions etc… but in times of urgency/high stakes, autocracy with a philosopher king/Jedi Master/Omniscient Paul is generally preferred. People who may try to fight you/Paul, probably do not want to pay the price of emancipation/equality. How else are we supposed to enact change other than using our power over others?
I don’t really have the issue of using power over others. At some level Hierarchy is efficient which is why a lot of Democratic structures have in built heirachy to address speedy action…
But there’s more nuance in what’s going on in Dune. Fremen are kind of Bedouin / Islamic / Haudenosaunee confederation coded. On the one hand you have the tropes around the Confederacy, fierce warrior culture, connecting to the land, noble Democratic society and then you have the Islamic religious belief system represented in the cult of Paul basically becoming something analogous to the Prophet Muhammad. Both of the cultural trope bodies come from places that have dealt with Colonial occupation. There are aspects we are meant to see as noble and admirable. We see through Paul’s eyes as he witnesses injustices and gains an appreciation of the culture which adopts him. There is a long history in the west of Romantization of indigenous peoples. Benevolent racism is still racism though. We follow Paul so we see as he does but the narrative framework doesn’t always match what Paul does. His ability to understand the grand weight of his actions puts him beyond normal human senses of scope. When he behaves in ways based on personal sentimentality Prescience essentially pops up in the corner of the screen and says “The world will Remember this.”
The frame always pops back up to tell us that by sympathizing Paul is going to cause a massive war. He is the fulcrum which the universe balances on and it is his choice whether he causes a massacre of incredible proportions. He’s coded as morally principled- A good man maybe but also the narritive paints weak, unable and unwilling to stop the rising tide because his alliegences are ultimately to the indigenous peoples. He cannot get ahead of the war because the people beneath him of that indigenous culture will never be satisfied with peaceful emancipation but enact instead a holy war. Others must suffer for the Fremen of Dune to be self determining. The deaths of billions rests on the nessisary exploitation of Dune’s spice resources the same way the world relies on oil. The deaths of billions is always cast as the inevitable consequence which is the main problem I think.
Take this back to it’s roots and you see some of the regular pushback you see against civil rights movements. The idea that people fighting for rights or emancipation are instead just looking to turn around and subjugate others. That it must enevitably come down to a war where someone replaces the old form of subjugation with a new format. The jihad is this idea codified. Paul’s actions are often framed as ultimately bad in the story but he fills the role of the person both enchanted by and betrayed by romanitic exotisism.
The story seems to be of someone who sympathizes with indigenous plight but also legitimizes the need for it. Paul is a tragic figure because he is given no third option. The story isn’t interested in exploring any positive potential outcomes. It’s a seesaw where the pain always lands on someone not in reasonable concessions but all or nothing battles. This is where the idea of Dune being an anti-colonization narrative starts to get very shakey.
I don’t know if this was a struggle internal to the author that he was working through in real time as he wrote it, , if we are supposed to see the points of both Paul and the Framework as legitimate or if we are ultimately supposed to conclude that Paul was ultimately misguided… Of those two options both are problematic in multiple ways. In the Framework and Paul are right model you have essentially “what’s done is done” Colonial apologism. If Paul is ultimately supposed to misguided by sentiment that’s basically the plot saying “Do not sympathize it will only lead to the bad stuff happening”. The Fremen can never be stopped from worshipping Paul as saviour and moral guide and the resulting massacre is his reward.
This narrative ignores the idea there are a range of different potential options to deconstructed colonization which are based on different peaceful reconciliation measures that are admittedly less narratively interesting than a winner takes all war. These are based on the appeals to seeing pluralist takes where compromise and actual respect is the work of non-romantic empathy. Different places are currently handling it differently…but that’s not really what Dune seems to consider. It’s structured so that at all times you know as a reader for certain that Paul’s actions and particularly his bleeding heart sentiments will cause death on a scale far beyond Arrakis. It seems mired with ruminations more in line with Utilitarian ethics trolley problem situations which paints Paul as an ultimately divisive figure. The main issue is that it’s using themes of indigenous emancipation to ask these questions which have fairly direct and poorly concealed real world counterparts. Precience exists to force the framework as emancipation as only choosing who is ultimately the worthiest of violence or what is ultimately worth sacrificing because of personal sentimental attachments.
You’ve helped me stretch my benefit of doubt to more than I expected. You hit on a crucial point that there was never a third option meaningfully explored. Think it’s the problem of increasing the stakes so much, in that every people’s opinions and ideas are taken to their extreme.
Regarding your moral struggle dichotomy, I’m more inclined to think that Paul being misguided since there is an acknowledgement that all of this is utterly chaotic and Rationality isn’t as prevalent as one expects. Other than a few key decisions, evening falls into making the lesser of two evils based on naturally biased reasoning. No one is perfect and this is what happens when errors in belief aggregate to galactic levels. But as you say, it has quite a few moral implications and problematic in its own way.
Right. I think I’ve taken too much of your time and should cap this discussion before you end up writing a novel. Haven’t had this much fun in a long time and I appreciate your engagement. You have a certain clarity of thought which is enviable.
Thank you Drivebyhaiku! Here’s my attempt at a summary haiku:
I mean I am having a blast writing a novel here. This has been one of the funnest interactions I have had on one of these platforms in years. I came from a family that couldn’t afford to put me through a philosophy or literature based degree and had to be more practical about vocational training for the job that would feel more fulfilling because I didn’t want a job in acedemia. I have way too much ADHD for that. Still I imbibe to a god awful number of podcasts and books on the subject and pick the brains of my buddies who did go to school mercilessly. My sibling actually wrote their dissertation for their Masters on dystopias in science fiction and became a librarian and got a lot of benefit telling me about the major points as a way to codify their own understanding. It has been requested that if they ever display a desire to go for their PHD that I should smack them… But I secretly hope they do.
I love Dune particularly as an example because it’s got a lot all of these weird neat sticky points that intersect with the field of indigenous philosophy and unpacking colonialism which has become a personal interest. I would shake your hand if I could button masher. This has been a good time!
My circumstances were similar in that I studied engineering in order to have a “useful” career. Only when I got working, I realize how important the reading comprehension and philosophy actually is. I can’t even imagine, like in the case of your sibling, that institutions would encourage mental dissection of such “silly fantasy stuff”. Quite lucky.
Yeah I don’t get how Herbert managed to construct this in his head. Everything from the Butlerian jihad to the shenanigans in God Emperor is still (in it’s twisted way) relevant to our times.
I’m annoyed I can’t follow people on Lemmy but don’t worry, I’ll try stalking you on the Internet just asking hear your thoughts on other things 😆 I may IM you for some podcast recommendations if you’re willing to share. This was fun.
And good luck with your political work 🙏 Enacting change in any form is an uphill battle so fair play even getting in the arena.
I think I am hardly a mover and shaker politically aside from showing up to town councils a few times a year and doing some union safety and advocacy stuff and occasionally hyping Raven Trust. It’s a weird place to be because with indigenous issues you want to be kind of tasked with something to do or at least have a signoff that what you are doing is helping but if you don’t belong to those groups you really don’t want to recommend any courses of action? I mostly do a lot more LGBTQIA+ related stuff because that is my wheelhouse. A couple buddies of mine are way more personally impactful in their work regarding Indigenous advocacy because they operate inside more exclusive power strucrures. I think I am kind of the layabout.
I think one of the most nerve wracking things on the indigenous front I ever did was run a D&D one shot for the former National Chief of Canada. Like I have done a lot of thinking on the implicit colonialist history of the game and the implicit bias wherein that reinforce that mindset through mechanics… But it’s one thing to know that intellectually and another one entirely to pick through your homebrew materials with a fine tooth comb looking for fault.
I also feel like there is no silly in acedemia. Stories tell us a lot about a culture and picking things apart can tell us a lot about psychology, culture or philosophy. Like RPGs they have mechanics that inform the tale though everyone interprets those mechanics differently and sometimes they aren’t really there to “say” anything. Sometimes there is no moral of the story you’re just being invited to have fun. Like Star Wars I think is one of those. Like the Jedi give the veneer of mysticism but I don’t think their internal logic is meant to be extrapolated out to be the author’s world veiw. I think they are basically just a warrior stoic fantasy… But there are thousands of acedemic papers on Star Wars. Every student who goes through the system is there to demonstrate they can think and dissect thought using the current methodology. It creates a body of convention which then they might use to pointed effect in their own work one day. The process refines and changes the process which in turn alters the process and the cycle goes on. It’s fascinating.
If you are into podcasts I might recommend “Revisionist History” “Invisabilia” “Radiolab” and the like for wonky dives into minutia and seeing stories from interesting angles. On YouTube I recommend the trans philosophy suite of Philosophy Tube, Shanspere, Kat Blaque and Alexander Aliva, the history and lit stuff with Crash Course, Extra History, Kaz Rowe, J Draper… I wish I had more indigenous forward stuff to offer but I tend to get a lot of that through books or personal connections willing to talk shop. The book “The Red Deal” was pretty evocative but also at odds with a lot of the things that we tend to have going on with local efforts. The books deal with efforts to make society at large run less on a western colonialist mindset but through a more combative nature. Like you can lock horns with the government as the book more suggests … Or you can just change the dominant culture at ground level to normalize forms of reconciliation and restorative justice and work inside those systems indiginizing and hybridizing the structures. Like there’s surprisingly little stopping my union department meetings or say public library management from adopting a restorative justice circle model for arbitration. Anyhow I hope that list of things has some fun stuff on it for you!
Trying to summarize your treatise, please correct if mistaken…
You’re saying that Dune doesn’t subvert the foreign Messiah due to the fact that Paul isn’t shown to be wrong. As discussed above, for plot reasons and due to prescience. He represents a different face of Western colonial expansion and since a hierarchical undercurrent is always present, the subversion doesn’t really happen.
Ugh, I agree. At least for his arc, it is shown to be a heavy burden but a necessary evil. It does propagate the idea “sometimes you just need to hand all power to one man who knows more than you”. My bad… I realize I may have been confusing the book and Villeneuve’s portrayal of Paul (hope you do get to see it one day!).
For my education (as I am curious to hear you’re thoughts [if you’ll humor me but no pressure]), I will try to push the “benefit of doubt” narrative and still try to justify Herbert a bit in regards to the pluralistic viewpoints you’ve laid out.
I get what you mean by seeing the broader context. The Fremen are shown to have a fluid government, more democratic than the Empire. They have more connection to the land, understand their shared history, value of life, value of resources and balance. I’m imagining a rosy native tribe close to nature, drugs and shit. Paul goes there, learns how they live, somewhat adopts their values and is free from the matrix.
If Paul is shown as narratively perfect, then the ‘indigenous’ views he carries are also weighed higher than the Imperial mindset. Yes nothing may have changed since the Fremen slotted into a hierarchical structure and paid for it, I think still Herbert acknowledged that indigenous views were ‘better’. A ‘civilized’ white man didn’t teach them a better way of living, instead he was corrupted to their way of thinking and worked with them to defeat the Empire.
As to wielding power and somewhat adopting a hierarchical mindset, I naively believe that intentions matter. In Paul’s example, he had the bestest of intentions. If there was no war, I think he would happily abdicate power, fulfill the dreams of the Fremen by giving them a healthy ecosystem and go live with his love (I would sidebar argue he actually loved Chaini and kept the princess as his concubine). I know power corrupts but what could he do other than fight for what he believed in… I know it’s all on trust and faith and lovey dovey stuff.
In your case, you acknowledge structures you’re complicit in and with what power you have, you are trying to nobly change for better. Yes wielding power can be done “humanely” by asking for permissions and consulting everyone before making decisions etc… but in times of urgency/high stakes, autocracy with a philosopher king/Jedi Master/Omniscient Paul is generally preferred. People who may try to fight you/Paul, probably do not want to pay the price of emancipation/equality. How else are we supposed to enact change other than using our power over others?
I don’t really have the issue of using power over others. At some level Hierarchy is efficient which is why a lot of Democratic structures have in built heirachy to address speedy action…
But there’s more nuance in what’s going on in Dune. Fremen are kind of Bedouin / Islamic / Haudenosaunee confederation coded. On the one hand you have the tropes around the Confederacy, fierce warrior culture, connecting to the land, noble Democratic society and then you have the Islamic religious belief system represented in the cult of Paul basically becoming something analogous to the Prophet Muhammad. Both of the cultural trope bodies come from places that have dealt with Colonial occupation. There are aspects we are meant to see as noble and admirable. We see through Paul’s eyes as he witnesses injustices and gains an appreciation of the culture which adopts him. There is a long history in the west of Romantization of indigenous peoples. Benevolent racism is still racism though. We follow Paul so we see as he does but the narrative framework doesn’t always match what Paul does. His ability to understand the grand weight of his actions puts him beyond normal human senses of scope. When he behaves in ways based on personal sentimentality Prescience essentially pops up in the corner of the screen and says “The world will Remember this.”
The frame always pops back up to tell us that by sympathizing Paul is going to cause a massive war. He is the fulcrum which the universe balances on and it is his choice whether he causes a massacre of incredible proportions. He’s coded as morally principled- A good man maybe but also the narritive paints weak, unable and unwilling to stop the rising tide because his alliegences are ultimately to the indigenous peoples. He cannot get ahead of the war because the people beneath him of that indigenous culture will never be satisfied with peaceful emancipation but enact instead a holy war. Others must suffer for the Fremen of Dune to be self determining. The deaths of billions rests on the nessisary exploitation of Dune’s spice resources the same way the world relies on oil. The deaths of billions is always cast as the inevitable consequence which is the main problem I think.
Take this back to it’s roots and you see some of the regular pushback you see against civil rights movements. The idea that people fighting for rights or emancipation are instead just looking to turn around and subjugate others. That it must enevitably come down to a war where someone replaces the old form of subjugation with a new format. The jihad is this idea codified. Paul’s actions are often framed as ultimately bad in the story but he fills the role of the person both enchanted by and betrayed by romanitic exotisism.
The story seems to be of someone who sympathizes with indigenous plight but also legitimizes the need for it. Paul is a tragic figure because he is given no third option. The story isn’t interested in exploring any positive potential outcomes. It’s a seesaw where the pain always lands on someone not in reasonable concessions but all or nothing battles. This is where the idea of Dune being an anti-colonization narrative starts to get very shakey.
I don’t know if this was a struggle internal to the author that he was working through in real time as he wrote it, , if we are supposed to see the points of both Paul and the Framework as legitimate or if we are ultimately supposed to conclude that Paul was ultimately misguided… Of those two options both are problematic in multiple ways. In the Framework and Paul are right model you have essentially “what’s done is done” Colonial apologism. If Paul is ultimately supposed to misguided by sentiment that’s basically the plot saying “Do not sympathize it will only lead to the bad stuff happening”. The Fremen can never be stopped from worshipping Paul as saviour and moral guide and the resulting massacre is his reward.
This narrative ignores the idea there are a range of different potential options to deconstructed colonization which are based on different peaceful reconciliation measures that are admittedly less narratively interesting than a winner takes all war. These are based on the appeals to seeing pluralist takes where compromise and actual respect is the work of non-romantic empathy. Different places are currently handling it differently…but that’s not really what Dune seems to consider. It’s structured so that at all times you know as a reader for certain that Paul’s actions and particularly his bleeding heart sentiments will cause death on a scale far beyond Arrakis. It seems mired with ruminations more in line with Utilitarian ethics trolley problem situations which paints Paul as an ultimately divisive figure. The main issue is that it’s using themes of indigenous emancipation to ask these questions which have fairly direct and poorly concealed real world counterparts. Precience exists to force the framework as emancipation as only choosing who is ultimately the worthiest of violence or what is ultimately worth sacrificing because of personal sentimental attachments.
You’ve helped me stretch my benefit of doubt to more than I expected. You hit on a crucial point that there was never a third option meaningfully explored. Think it’s the problem of increasing the stakes so much, in that every people’s opinions and ideas are taken to their extreme.
Regarding your moral struggle dichotomy, I’m more inclined to think that Paul being misguided since there is an acknowledgement that all of this is utterly chaotic and Rationality isn’t as prevalent as one expects. Other than a few key decisions, evening falls into making the lesser of two evils based on naturally biased reasoning. No one is perfect and this is what happens when errors in belief aggregate to galactic levels. But as you say, it has quite a few moral implications and problematic in its own way.
Right. I think I’ve taken too much of your time and should cap this discussion before you end up writing a novel. Haven’t had this much fun in a long time and I appreciate your engagement. You have a certain clarity of thought which is enviable.
Thank you Drivebyhaiku! Here’s my attempt at a summary haiku:
Do not judge humans,
for you will always suffer.
Foresight makes it worse.
I mean I am having a blast writing a novel here. This has been one of the funnest interactions I have had on one of these platforms in years. I came from a family that couldn’t afford to put me through a philosophy or literature based degree and had to be more practical about vocational training for the job that would feel more fulfilling because I didn’t want a job in acedemia. I have way too much ADHD for that. Still I imbibe to a god awful number of podcasts and books on the subject and pick the brains of my buddies who did go to school mercilessly. My sibling actually wrote their dissertation for their Masters on dystopias in science fiction and became a librarian and got a lot of benefit telling me about the major points as a way to codify their own understanding. It has been requested that if they ever display a desire to go for their PHD that I should smack them… But I secretly hope they do.
I love Dune particularly as an example because it’s got a lot all of these weird neat sticky points that intersect with the field of indigenous philosophy and unpacking colonialism which has become a personal interest. I would shake your hand if I could button masher. This has been a good time!
My circumstances were similar in that I studied engineering in order to have a “useful” career. Only when I got working, I realize how important the reading comprehension and philosophy actually is. I can’t even imagine, like in the case of your sibling, that institutions would encourage mental dissection of such “silly fantasy stuff”. Quite lucky.
Yeah I don’t get how Herbert managed to construct this in his head. Everything from the Butlerian jihad to the shenanigans in God Emperor is still (in it’s twisted way) relevant to our times.
I’m annoyed I can’t follow people on Lemmy but don’t worry, I’ll try stalking you on the Internet just asking hear your thoughts on other things 😆 I may IM you for some podcast recommendations if you’re willing to share. This was fun.
And good luck with your political work 🙏 Enacting change in any form is an uphill battle so fair play even getting in the arena.
Same!
I think I am hardly a mover and shaker politically aside from showing up to town councils a few times a year and doing some union safety and advocacy stuff and occasionally hyping Raven Trust. It’s a weird place to be because with indigenous issues you want to be kind of tasked with something to do or at least have a signoff that what you are doing is helping but if you don’t belong to those groups you really don’t want to recommend any courses of action? I mostly do a lot more LGBTQIA+ related stuff because that is my wheelhouse. A couple buddies of mine are way more personally impactful in their work regarding Indigenous advocacy because they operate inside more exclusive power strucrures. I think I am kind of the layabout.
I think one of the most nerve wracking things on the indigenous front I ever did was run a D&D one shot for the former National Chief of Canada. Like I have done a lot of thinking on the implicit colonialist history of the game and the implicit bias wherein that reinforce that mindset through mechanics… But it’s one thing to know that intellectually and another one entirely to pick through your homebrew materials with a fine tooth comb looking for fault.
I also feel like there is no silly in acedemia. Stories tell us a lot about a culture and picking things apart can tell us a lot about psychology, culture or philosophy. Like RPGs they have mechanics that inform the tale though everyone interprets those mechanics differently and sometimes they aren’t really there to “say” anything. Sometimes there is no moral of the story you’re just being invited to have fun. Like Star Wars I think is one of those. Like the Jedi give the veneer of mysticism but I don’t think their internal logic is meant to be extrapolated out to be the author’s world veiw. I think they are basically just a warrior stoic fantasy… But there are thousands of acedemic papers on Star Wars. Every student who goes through the system is there to demonstrate they can think and dissect thought using the current methodology. It creates a body of convention which then they might use to pointed effect in their own work one day. The process refines and changes the process which in turn alters the process and the cycle goes on. It’s fascinating.
If you are into podcasts I might recommend “Revisionist History” “Invisabilia” “Radiolab” and the like for wonky dives into minutia and seeing stories from interesting angles. On YouTube I recommend the trans philosophy suite of Philosophy Tube, Shanspere, Kat Blaque and Alexander Aliva, the history and lit stuff with Crash Course, Extra History, Kaz Rowe, J Draper… I wish I had more indigenous forward stuff to offer but I tend to get a lot of that through books or personal connections willing to talk shop. The book “The Red Deal” was pretty evocative but also at odds with a lot of the things that we tend to have going on with local efforts. The books deal with efforts to make society at large run less on a western colonialist mindset but through a more combative nature. Like you can lock horns with the government as the book more suggests … Or you can just change the dominant culture at ground level to normalize forms of reconciliation and restorative justice and work inside those systems indiginizing and hybridizing the structures. Like there’s surprisingly little stopping my union department meetings or say public library management from adopting a restorative justice circle model for arbitration. Anyhow I hope that list of things has some fun stuff on it for you!