The world’s top chess federation has ruled that transgender women cannot compete in its official events for females until an assessment of gender change is made by its officials.

  • SuddenDownpour@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    None of y’all are getting it. Trans women have an unfair advantage in chess because they can turn the king into another queen.

    • Hello Hotel@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      That would put the chess judges into a paradox and their mind would lock up, requiring a visit to the ICU. Because trans pepople can only do that, thay are “a danger to the whole chess community” /s

    • body_by_make@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      1 year ago

      I’ve always heard that it’s to encourage visibility of women players and encourage women to take up the game, but this ban goes against that idea and just makes it sound like women aren’t as good at the game. Just like ol’ Bobby would want, I guess.

    • volodymyr@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      Strangely, in chess, there is almost never a man category. There is everybody and there is women. wikipedia . See also motivations why and arguments against. It’s tricky.

  • Draconic NEO@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    This is such a stupid argument, while you might be able to make the argument about sexual dimorphism in physical sports there’s literally no good reason why a woman shouldn’t be allowed to play chess against a man, or play chess against another woman if they are trans.

    Chess is a game based on intelligence and strategy, it’s not based on strength. It seems that this decision was made primarily on the basis of sexism, either because they think that chess is ““manly”” or because they think that men are smarter than women or that women are stupid. Either way not logical, purely sexist.

    • Shanedino@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      Women have been allowed in the open division and Trans females will also continued to be allowed in that division just not in the women’s division.

      • Pogbom@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        They said that while you might be able to make it for sports, you certainly can’t make it for chess. That doesn’t mean they personally think there’s a case for sports too.

        • Draconic NEO@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          Exactly, I’m saying that in chess there is no advantage or disadvantage between sex (or gender for that matter) because it is not a physical game.

      • Draconic NEO@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        No I was saying that for chess you can’t since there’s no unfairness or difference in advantage to playing chess as a man or as a woman.

    • lunaticneko@lemmy.ml
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      1 year ago

      Traditionally chess has been a men’s game, and female adoption is limited. The creation of an exclusive women’s division is to generate a pathway to success for women, even if it’s known to have a lower ceiling compared to men. Basically, it is to foster the game in females.

      • Stinkywinks@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        Why does men being around affect their liking of chess? Why does anyone care if they like chess or not? It’s a board game you sit at a table playing. If they want to play board games with other people, it really shouldn’t matter who those other people are.

        • lunaticneko@lemmy.ml
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          1 year ago

          That isn’t the problem. The problem is how it has been naturally male-dominant makes it naturally unfriendly to other groups in the first place.

          Not everyone is comfortable with this. By a large margin. The dedication of an event for women only creates that comfort zone.

          This situation, and I humbly state I mean no fallacy, is strikingly similar to STEM education. Nobody is preventing them from joining, nobody cares if anyone likes it or not, but the fact that it is dominated by a specific group in the “open” field makes it less appealing to the other groups.

          • Stinkywinks@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            Alright, so woman want to have a woman’s only chess club to dominate their club with a gender because they feel the regular club is dominated by another gender. Id assume though, woman could play in the normal club dominated by men if they choose to? All seems silly. Part of the appeal of board games or videos games is that it’s a battle of the minds. A 10 year old kid can win against 300 lb MMA fighter. We can’t really help that naturally less men want to learn to bake, while less woman want to learn to hunt, can we? It should be open though to whoever. I think excluding a transgender woman on this is wrong, she has no advantage. It seems plain hurtful, and id think the woman who say they feel excluded from the main league should be able to empathize. I can understand physical competition, but that’s just my opinion.

            • lunaticneko@lemmy.ml
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              1 year ago

              Come to think about it, maybe it’s probably similar to how weight classes work in martial arts, except that the point of this is to guarantee that women can progress somewhat within their careers.

              Of course I do not agree that we need to elevate or celebrate them to the level of grandmasters.

              In a specific case of transgenders, I understand that transgender women are excluded until an official statement of medical or psychological evaluation has been made, to prevent cases where men illicitly transition just to play in these, and pardon my sexism, weaker leagues.

              • Stinkywinks@lemmy.world
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                1 year ago

                How can it be like weight classes? What are you measuring? In a tournament people play, the winners move forward. Doesn’t matter what’s in the pants. If ya lose, you’re welcome to keep playing with whoever else you want. Is the woman’s chess league saying men have an advantage in chess? Chess is about memorizing a bunch of different outcomes. I dunno, don’t have much interest in it myself, but if I was a woman and wanted to be the best in the world, I’d want to play against the best. There’s plenty of dudes that get their ass kicked in the men’s league. Should they make a separate league so they can win it? Are men just better at everything? Even board games? Or do men just care more? I’ve seen the graph that says men are more likely to have geniuses, but also more likely to be retards. Is that where it comes from? Does everyone have to be good enough to be a grandmaster to play? Cause I’d have to guess there’s a handful of superstars and the rest just play. But I don’t follow it.

                • lunaticneko@lemmy.ml
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                  1 year ago

                  Again, you are missing the point. It’s that the point of a protected space for women is to promote women’s participation in chess, not to overly tout their position over others.

                  And no, this does not have to do with the intelligence curve. It’s entirely about careers and participation.

      • systemglitch@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        And the real reason is because women don’t do well against men. They get dominated except for a very small minority. So I orde for women to have more parity, they have women’s chess A biological man competing with them is, statistically, a huge advantage.

  • Skullgrid@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    Clarifications and comments (some pre emptive)

    Chess has a women’s category to boost participation and spotlight female players.

    Women can and do compete in the open category, which allows men and women. However, currently the highest rated women perform under the super closed “Super GM” level, so they participate in the tournaments that are less prestigious but fitting their rating. Male players like IM Eric Rosen also participate in such tournaments.

    The best female player in history , Judit Polgar was 8th best in the world when taking both genders into account. There’s nothing stopping women from reaching the elite level in open chess. She even participated in the candidates tournament which decides who gets to play against the world champion for the world champion title. Unfortunately she didn’t perform too well, but it’s not because of her gender, she was basically beaten 2-1 (plus draws) by a male competitor, just like the other contestants in the round she was eliminated.

    At her peak she had 2735 Elo points, making her 55th highest rated person in the history of organized chess. This is higher than one of the actual challengers to the crown, Nigel short.

    Regarding the rulings:

    1. No one is going to pretend to be a woman, in order to convert the person’s identity with fide, they are required to have government issued paperwork saying they have transitioned. It’s not worth it.

    2. it’s funny that male to female transgender people are not regarded as women by this ruling, hence cannot participate in women’s events, but female to male transgender people also forfeit their women’s titles as they are not seen as women either. (To be fair, they can convert them to open titles, and get them back if they detransition officially)

    So according to FIDE, transitioning from a man to a woman doesn’t make you a woman, you are considered a man, but also, transitioning from a woman to a man makes you a man, so you are also not considered a woman.

    Seems paradoxical. You’d think they’d pick one and stick to it.

    Also: chess does have physical advantages, but they seem to be reletive and not competitive. Most high level players have some sports regimen as it helps increase cardiovascular efficiency, but size of competitor doesn’t seem to matter as seen by David Bronstein and Mikhail Tal. Ian Nepomniatchschi intentionally lost weight for the world championship, and his ratings grew as a result.

    Remember that whales are not necessarily more clever than humans even though their brains are huge in comparison.

  • chk232@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    I don’t think it’s a issue in chess. Unless they have to run 100m while holding the chess board.

  • FourPacketsOfPeanuts@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    Plenty of enlightened gents hitting the thread here to rubbish the need for a women’s category whilst simultaneously demonstrating the need for a women’s category

      • FourPacketsOfPeanuts@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        Double_A Nerdy men playing a board game are intidimating? How do women even get anything in life done of they are this fragile? WTF? Do you also want separate women-only schools, and women-only companies?

        Rbmellor Tf are they in separate groups for? Don’t girls know how sexy they look playing cheers?

        System_glitch And the real reason is because women don’t do well against men. They get dominated except for a very small minority. So I orde for women to have more parity, they have women’s chess A biological man competing with them is, statistically, a huge advantage.

        Two others I recall have been since been removed

        Etc

  • artvandelay@lemm.ee
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    1 year ago

    Of all the sports where someone’s biological sex would matter, chess is not one of them.

  • Ekybio@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    I recently heard the argument that no men would mentally survive loosing to a women in chess, especially grandmasters.

    ngl I wonder if this contains more then a kernel of truth

  • nandeEbisu@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    Reading between the lines, I can kind of see this one. The point appears to be to correct for societal inequities in the space of chess. If you learned chess and came up as a masculine presenting individual, they believe that the environment was more advantageous to you, so transitioning later in life doesn’t change that advantage.

  • 21Cabbage@lemmynsfw.com
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    1 year ago

    That’s the kind of decision that makes me wish there was a capital question mark so I could just send that as a response.

  • shapis@lemmy.ml
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    1 year ago

    Being a minority in any social setting brings difficulties that others just don’t otherwise face.

    Having a women’s category for chess is a way of creating a safe environment for everyone to thrive.

    • kttnpunk@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      Nah, wait, why the hell is there a separate women’s category in fucking chess in the first place? Those in charge of this decision are 100% misogynists AND transphobes. There isn’t a single good reason for this.

      • hh93@lemm.ee
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        1 year ago

        For the same reason why we need quotas for businesses

        Having a role model is hugely important for people picking up something.

        If some girl plays chess and looks at the professional players and big tournaments there are no women there. So she likely will not pursue that path professionally. If there is a women’s league then there the guarantee that there will be visibility for the winners which then creates more idols for young people and over the years increases the level of play until they are equal enough.

        Not to mention the chess-clubs favouring boys on their training since they have a bigger chance to make it big and shine a spotlight on that club that produced this talent. With female only tournaments it’s easier to create a name for yourself if you treat both genders equal and create the same talent for both sides there are so many fewer players.

        Sure sounds dumb on paper but it’s actually really necessary in order to create a pathway to more professional female players

        • kttnpunk@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          I have a really, really hard time believing treating both genders equal and empowering accessibility + diversity is best achieved by segration.

        • zimy@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          Having a role model is hugely important for people picking up something.

          Maybe society should start teaching kids to just do what they want instead of waiting for some random person that shares arbitrary X-trait to “inspire and empower” them. Be your own person.

      • CaptainBuckleroy@lemm.ee
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        1 year ago

        I’m going to assume you aren’t trolling.

        Women traditionally have been discouraged from competitions, including chess. We are at the stage where we should be creating extra opportunities for women to be involved in these competitions. If we didn’t, tradition and systemic practices would continue to discourage women.

        Chess has no male category. There’s co-ed, and female. This allows an extra space for women to compete against each other, feel safe, and make connections and friendships with other women in the minority. While still allowing them to compete in the coed category on a level playing field.

        We will most likely continue to be at this stage for generations.

  • aubertlone@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    I didn’t even realize chess had separated mens/womens events. I figured maybe a U18 and an open tournament. Is this par for normal? Or do most grandmasters etc compete at open tournaments?

    • Kecessa@sh.itjust.works
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      1 year ago

      Open and women, not men and women. The reason why there’s separate women competitions is so they have a space where they can compete without some men being disrespectful towards them as happens every time there’s mixed gender competitions.

      • gmtom@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        People keep saying that, but its really more because there are currently no women at the highest levels. So if they didnt have their own tournaments their would be no women pro players.

          • gmtom@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            What do you mean? They are Women’s and Open BECAUSE there arent women at top level. It being Women and Open is defacto Womens and mens because there are currently no top level women competitors.