A UK Member of Parliament recently suggested that there should be a Government minister for men which would presumably do similar things to the existsing minister for Women.
This has thrown up a series of heated discussions on social media about whether this is part of the ‘backlash’ against feminsm, or whether there is a legitimate need for wider support of men’s issues.
As a man who believes that there are legitimate issues disproportionately affecting men which should be addressed, what I really want help in understanding is the opinion that men don’t need any targetted support.
I don’t want to start a big argument, but I do want to understand this perspective, because I have struggled to understand it before and I don’t like feeling like I’m missing something.
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It’s a disingenuous argument. The MP is from the Conservative Party, i.e., the right wing arsehole party.
You may have noticed how the Right Wing Playbook has been imported from America. Increasingly, when things aren’t going politically well, they’ll have a look at the Playbook and pick a Culture Wars trope. This is one such instance, intended only to divide.
How is supporting men’s mental health and advocating for them in ways they are often overlooked (such as in single fatherhood) bad?
This is the same difference between Black Lives Matter and All Lives Matter. Nobody is saying that men should not be advocated for, but elevating the issue of men’s rights to ministerial level does not help resolve the larger issue of the systemic disadvantage of women in society.
You’re right, it doesn’t. That’s why there’s a minister for women.
Who’s responsibility includes reducing the disparity between men and women. Having a minister for men introduces parity in this regard, which therefore does nothing to advance the interest of women in a male dominated system
There shouldn’t even have to be a Minister for Women!
Yes, that would be nice in an ideal world there would be no issues which affected one sex more than another, but we are not in a perfect world.
I’m afraid this doesn’t really help me understand the view that men’s problems aren’t as worthy as women’s issues.
I am not from the UK but I would think that both genders having support would have been a obvious move. Each has their hurdles and as a society which is created to support the people in it should support both. Equality in its truest sense.
Exactly. It’s the same with any diversity and inclusion push at any level. It exists because the current system favours a specific group of people. If we can put down any prejudice and hire people for their work and passion and account for people with less privilege. It exist still because we still do it. But also it exist now to try and right a wrong.
A minister for men is to do what? We had our time in the sun for the entirety of human existence while pushing women down. Men are at risk of losing anything. The shit men are I hope.
As an American whose only knowledge of UK government comes from sporadic episodes of Politics Unboringed, my first thought would be to replace the Minister for Women with a Minister for Gender Equality. They would have all the powers and responsibilities of the Minister for Women, and also gain any powers and responsibilities that a hypothetical Minister for Men would need.
- If there is a need for a Minister for Men, then that need is met by the Minister for Gender Equality
- If there is no need for a Minister for Men, then the only thing that changes is that the Minister for Women has a new, less controversial title
Sounds like a win-win to me, but again, I’m a dumb Yank lol
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To advocate for men’s services like mental healthcare, regular healthcare, and things like that. And by regular healthcare I mean the stigma around going to the doctor, not access. To advocate for men who’ve been abused physically, emotionally, sexually etc? Yeah. I’m all for that.
Some people are making a slippery slope argument. That then we would need one for each other gender identity etc. And you know what. We should have those too. If you’re not trans there is a limit to how much you can understand (not empathize, but understand) the challenges that face trans people. Same thing with men, and with women. And everyone should have equal representation and advocacy. Does.it seem bloated? Sure. Does it seem like the kind of thing that might get out of hand? Or might be taken advantage of, or might end up devaluing the authority of the ruling body? Maybe. But it’s better to attempt equality and equity and fail and then try again than it is to not attempt it because it’s "problematic.
I don’t know what the female counterpart does in this role. I don’t live in the UK and so I had to imagine what a person in the role of Woman’s Minister would do. What their duties would be. And then translate that to something that a Men’s Minister would do. And what I came up with (as a woman) was very telling to me that I don’t know a lot about the challenges men face in society. But I do know that toxic masculinity and the taboo of seeking both mental and other types of healthcare exist. And I would love to see someone attempt to fight those at a government level for the benefit of citizens the way so many governments want protect women, and their rights (laws against rape, sexuql harrassment, sexual assault, programs both government and private to benefit battered woman, healthcare services that include abortion and family planning and so on).
Here’s a question for people who do live there, especially the ones who say the representative in this role doesn’t do anything. What are they supposed to do? Would there be consequences of that role was eliminated?
At some point yes. The lack of tackling men’s issues is not due to a lack of representation. Roles like this are specifically about opinions that are not being heard or represented before the creation of the role. Once the need for other roles presents itself, those roles will be created as well. Well… after the need has presented itself for so long that it has gained enough traction to actually have a chance of the idea surviving the proposal. And then only a few more short decades.
It’s similar, though not the same, to specifically increasing diversity on purpose in business. The counter argument that hiring “the best candidate blindly” would be a better strategy misses that diversity adds it’s own value. The person who is almost as qualified, but brings a background not currently represented in the company does indeed bring more value. It is understandably seen as inherently unfair, but it wouldn’t be so valuable if we weren’t coming from such a staggering lack of diversity. So the fix to historical unfairness, is a bit more unfairness but in the other direction. If it works, there will be no reason to focus on it eventually. It will just be normal.
When Ken wants a Minister to compete with Barbie
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nooo that would be sexist /s
The official position is Minister for Women and Equalities.
And the easy answer to this Tory troll is that (middle-class, white) men already dominate political, economic and social life. Everything is filtered through the eyes of people like them, they don’t need a special platform to get their viewpoint across.
But, this is a lot like March 8th (International Women’s Day) being full of plaintive cries of “why isn’t there an International Men’s Day?”. There is an International Men’s Day and it is a very good thing. It makes sense in a way that “why isn’t there a white history month?” does not.
There are many points of similarity and difference between the various forms of prejudice. And one of the things that makes sexism unique is that prejudice against women inevitably creates a mirror prejudice about (if not intentionally against) men. If being feminine means having emotions other than rage, men are allowed to experience only rage. If being feminine means caring for others, men are not allowed to care for (or about) others.
While there are certainly forms of feminism which are anti-men (most notably the transphobic strain currently getting more attention than it deserves), feminism is fundamentally as important for men as it is for women and the issues facing men exist precisely because of the history of subjugating women. Women’s rights are not in tension with men’s rights (unless you mean the demands of damaged and damaging men who insist that they should have the right to rape women and keep one at home as a sex doll, housekeeper, incubator and child minder).
This article is not perfect but it does make the broader point well: If I Admit That ‘Hating Men’ Is a Thing, Will You Stop Turning It Into a Self-Fulfilling Prophecy?:
Part Four: A List of “Men’s Rights” Issues That Feminism Is Already Working On
Feminists do not want you to lose custody of your children. The assumption that women are naturally better caregivers is part of patriarchy.
Feminists do not like commercials in which bumbling dads mess up the laundry and competent wives have to bustle in and fix it. The assumption that women are naturally better housekeepers is part of patriarchy.
Feminists do not want you to have to make alimony payments. Alimony is set up to combat the fact that women have been historically expected to prioritize domestic duties over professional goals, thus minimizing their earning potential if their “traditional” marriages end. The assumption that wives should make babies instead of money is part of patriarchy.
Feminists do not want anyone to get raped in prison. Permissiveness and jokes about prison rape are part of rape culture, which is part of patriarchy.
Feminists do not want anyone to be falsely accused of rape. False rape accusations discredit rape victims, which reinforces rape culture, which is part of patriarchy.
Feminists do not want you to be lonely and we do not hate “nice guys.” The idea that certain people are inherently more valuable than other people because of superficial physical attributes is part of patriarchy.
Feminists do not want you to have to pay for dinner. We want the opportunity to achieve financial success on par with men in any field we choose (and are qualified for), and the fact that we currently don’t is part of patriarchy. The idea that men should coddle and provide for women, and/or purchase their affections in romantic contexts, is condescending and damaging and part of patriarchy.
Feminists do not want you to be maimed or killed in industrial accidents, or toil in coal mines while we do cushy secretarial work and various yarn-themed activities. The fact that women have long been shut out of dangerous industrial jobs (by men, by the way) is part of patriarchy.
Feminists do not want you to commit suicide. Any pressures and expectations that lower the quality of life of any gender are part of patriarchy. The fact that depression is characterized as an effeminate weakness, making men less likely to seek treatment, is part of patriarchy.
Feminists do not want you to be viewed with suspicion when you take your child to the park (men frequently insist that this is a serious issue, so I will take them at their word). The assumption that men are insatiable sexual animals, combined with the idea that it’s unnatural for men to care for children, is part of patriarchy.
Feminists do not want you to be drafted and then die in a war while we stay home and iron stuff. The idea that women are too weak to fight or too delicate to function in a military setting is part of patriarchy.
Feminists do not want women to escape prosecution on legitimate domestic violence charges, nor do we want men to be ridiculed for being raped or abused. The idea that women are naturally gentle and compliant and that victimhood is inherently feminine is part of patriarchy.
Feminists hate patriarchy. We do not hate you.
If you really care about those issues as passionately as you say you do, you should be thanking feminists, because feminism is a social movement actively dedicated to dismantling every single one of them. The fact that you blame feminists—your allies—for problems against which they have been struggling for decades suggests that supporting men isn’t nearly as important to you as resenting women. We care about your problems a lot. Could you try caring about ours?
Thanks for your comment, it’s certainly one of the better considered ones in this thread!
There are many points of similarity and difference between the various forms of prejudice. And one of the things that makes sexism unique is that prejudice against women inevitably creates a mirror prejudice about (if not intentionally against) men. If being feminine means having emotions other than rage, men are allowed to experience only rage. If being feminine means caring for others, men are not allowed to care for (or about) others.
How do we distinguish between legitimate grievances that men may have and the more reactionary/politically divisive. Whenever I hear the above argument, it strikes me as dismissive of legitimate issues and it feels dismissive of my experiences.
In order to affect real change, do we not need to move past dismissing the problems raised by one gender? Isn’t it more likely that we change people’s behaviour by acceptance of their viewpoint rather than telling them they’re just being difficult?
feminism is fundamentally as important for men as it is for women and the issues facing men exist precisely because of the history of subjugating women
I agree with you here, but I think it’s also important to take note of the fact that feminism is a fairly broad church so the idea that there is one ‘feminist perspective’ which cares about men too is, to my mind, undermined by the negation of the importance of men’s issues I commonly see.
What legitimate issues do you think I’m being dismissive of?
I’ve come across a segment of society which seems to believe that men don’t feel emotions in the same way as women, that they should be tough - not cry, ‘be a man’, ‘man up’.
My belief is that a number of men in society are psychologically scarred by regressive beliefs like these and would hazard a guess that these beliefs contribute towards loneliness and suicide. I also believe that it’s a big driver of things like the red pill movement.
Now you might say that this is a feminist issue, in that it’s the result of outmoded gender stereotypes (which probably have a negative impact on women too), and I would broadly agree with you. But until we allow men to come out and say “I suffer too from sexism” I don’t see how we can move past it.
None of the contradicts anything I said. I explicitly said it.
This is the damage wrought by patriarchy. You are not competing with women to get your case heard. It is the exact same case.
I don’t believe there is a space in society for men’s to talk about issues like this that affect them. I don’t believe there are structures in place to attempt to address these issues.
It’s certainly a problem, not least because most attempts to start something up attracts men who only want to complain about how it’s all the fault of those devastatingly powerful women and everyone else gives up. But there are some surviving spaces, like the Men & Boys Coalition.
