I see this way too often here on Lemmy, so I want to post this. Starting a commune is legal in most countries. If you believe in communism, you can found a commune and show us all how great it is.
You lack money? Well, that is literally what stock markets and venture capitalists (capitalism) are created to solve. If you are ready for an IPO, you can sell shares to raise funds. If you are not, you can get Venture Capital in exchange for shares until you are ready for an IPO.
Getting rid of capitalism means you need to find a different way to obtain funding for new ventures. And if your system relies on government charity (some government board handing you money) or taking resources violently, than your system sucks.
Edit: I don’t mean that this is a replacement for full communist system. I mean this as a way to get some of the advantages while showing sceptics (like me) it can work and is better. A first step.
If you want capitalism, you can start a capital.
If you want sexism, you can start a sex.Go start a j.
How do you feel about capitalism using violence to maintain itself?
Depends what you mean maintain itself. From real outside threats, I don’t see an issue. If you mean from people fairly competing or peacefully changing it from the inside, I feel the same way as any other unjustified violence.
Everyone’s boss fairly gives a paycheck while moving all the profits upward, whilst we all live under the threat that is our resume is empty for long enough we will starve and die on the street. Cool stuff.
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Where the hell do you live that starving to death due to a resume gap is a concern?
PS: I just realized how ironic it is to call capitalists out for starving people who disagree with them.
If I can’t work? I don’t eat
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Must suck where you live. Especially if a resume gap = can’t work
K
*then your system sucks
Am I blind and don’t see a typo?
Or are you disputing that resorting to violence or relying on the govt. for basic entrepreneurship is bad?
Giving you a real answer, there are many barriers stopping people from making communes in capitalist nations. There are problems with land and property ownership, financial integration with the capitalist system, taxes, and pressures from anti-communists.
Communist nations, as compared to small local communes, have the advantage when it comes to resource allocation, bureaucracy, and stability due to scale.
Basically, starting a small commune isn’t really that practical when you’re surrounded by capitalism on all sides, and isn’t really what people mean when they talk about a communist society. You can’t really have the labor distribution, property, or means of production structures Marxists talk about without a central government at the scale of a nation.
Then does the nation have to be a certain size? There are plenty of micronations in the world. Tuvalu has only around 12,000 people. Does socialism not work in such nations? What about nations with 5 million people? What is the minimum?
As for taxes, what is the issue there? Surely even in communism, you would have to give some portion of production to the government to build infrastructure, run emergency services etc.
Wouldn’t financial integration be an issue on international level if it is an issue on inter-company level? (PS: what even is the issue? Is it just being uncompetitive?)
And what is the issue with land and property ownership? Do you mean you can’t seize them by force or do you mean it can’t be collectively owned? Because I am not a lawyer but I think you can own stuff collectively if you write your contracts and documents correctly.
PS: As for anticommunists interfering with your business, there is actually a law against it.
The size of a nation doesn’t inherently determine the success of socialism. There have been historical examples of relatively small nations with socialist-inspired policies and economic structures that achieved positive outcomes. I was moreso making the point that nations are different from communes existing within capitalist nations on a variety of levels.
Socialist principles can be applied at different scales. Micronations and small nations can focus on social programs, resource distribution, worker-ownership, etc., regardless of their size.
For taxes, while infrastructure and services are vital, a truly communist system wouldn’t depend on taxation in the traditional sense. The idea is for the community to directly produce the goods and services it needs. Again, this runs into conflict when a commune needs to exist in a capitalist framework.
Commune members would contribute their labor and skills, and in return, directly receive what they need. This minimizes the need for a complex tax system as seen in capitalist societies.
Regarding financial integration, a communist system wouldn’t rely on traditional capitalist financial models focused on competition. Trade and international exchange would likely be based on cooperation and needs fulfillment instead of pure profit motives.
The challenge lies in managing the complexity of large-scale bartering or exchange systems on an international level, but it’s not necessarily impossible. For a small commune in a capitalist nation, though, I can’t see that ever happening.
For land, the issue isn’t about violently seizing property, but rather transforming the concept of ownership itself. In a communist model, the means of production would be collectively owned by the community.
For the legal stuff: you’re right! Legal structures exist to support collective ownership (co-ops, land trusts, etc.). The issue is how those structures interact with a dominant capitalist system and its legal frameworks.
For anticommunist interference, yes it is illegal but when has that ever stopped anyone from harassing their political opponents?
Hope that answers most of your questions!
The size of a nation doesn’t inherently determine the success of socialism. There have been historical examples of relatively small nations with socialist-inspired policies and economic structures that achieved positive outcomes.
Ok, so its not size that is the issue.
I was moreso making the point that nations are different from communes existing within capitalist nations on a variety of levels.
Yes, I get that is the point you want to make but I am inclined to not believe you, since it sounds way too convenient. “I can’t show you a small scale proof of concepts because evil capitalism exists.” So my question is, what exactly are the issues? Concrete examples.
For taxes, while infrastructure and services are vital, a truly communist system wouldn’t depend on taxation in the traditional sense. The idea is for the community to directly produce the goods and services it needs. Again, this runs into conflict when a commune needs to exist in a capitalist framework.
Ok sure, but that does not prevent a commune from existing. If it can produce enough economic value, it does not matter if it builds infrastructure itself or pays taxes. Just treat the commune like a micro-nation that can’t produce firetrucks and bulldozers and has to obtain them from abroad by bartering using money as the medium.
The challenge lies in managing the complexity of large-scale bartering or exchange systems on an international level, but it’s not necessarily impossible. For a small commune in a capitalist nation, though, I can’t see that ever happening.
Why? International trade is already pretty much barter facilitated by money. Why couldn’t a commune treat the surrounding system the same as a foreign nation from trade perspective?
Trade and international exchange would likely be based on cooperation and needs fulfillment instead of pure profit motives.
So a communist nation can’t peacefully coexist and cooperate with any other system? Doesn’t sound very robust.
For the legal stuff: you’re right! Legal structures exist to support collective ownership (co-ops, land trusts, etc.). The issue is how those structures interact with a dominant capitalist system and its legal frameworks.
What exactly? What laws would we need to change to make this possible?
For anticommunist interference, yes it is illegal but when has that ever stopped anyone from harassing their political opponents?
Sure, it can’t stop it but it can limit it. Again, if your system falls apart due to little push back, its not a very robust system.
I do wonder if a Communist country will just send me money…
overall, i rate this post lmao/10. I wish i thought it was a joke.
Remember, OP: you are not immune to propoganda
I know I am not. But I am an engineer, so I am able to tell apart a workable plan and wishful thinking. I have never heard anything but wishful thinking from communism proponents. I know that does not mean a workable plan does not exist but I tend to not believe in things I see no evidence of.
I don’t think being an engineer makes you qualified in economics, politics, or sociology.
Sure, I don’t claim it does. But it makes me skilled enough to identify when a proposal is missing large parts that are needed to implement it.
You don’t even seem to know what communism is, seeing as you conflate it with socialism in another of your comments
No, I will readily admit I don’t even know what communism would be in practice beyond the vague nonsense people say like “collective ownership”. I have been trying to ask here for a few days now and didn’t really get anywhere.
That is exactly my criticism. From what I have seen, communism is not an implementable plan, it is a “politicians promise” of things being better without the rich with nothing backing that claim up.
Of course, feel free to prove me wrong by providing a link or an explanation. Or even better, by implementing it in reality on a smaller scale as the post challenges the readers to.
“collective ownership” is not vague. the simplest way to transform capitalism into socialism is to make every company a co-op and implement progressive tax policy.
;D Maybe if your understanding of economy does not go beyond people in factories make things :D
I mean, you have no right to act this clueless when the main post gives one of the issues away. Namely: How do you get investment for new companies?
Also, you are mixing communism and socialism. ;D Did you not even read the whole comment chain? How do you manage to do this when I was called out for this in the comment I was replying to? ;D
OP, if there was a viable way of making communism work, some one would have done it already. And inb4 if external pressure and/or internal grinding makes your system collapse, then it does not work
I mean, that is kinda my stance.
On the other hand, I am always open to being proven wrong.
