And there it is. This is the main reason I’m effectively pro-choice, while technically being pro-life.
In case anyone cares, here’s my specific policy preferences:
women can never be charged with a crime for seeking an abortion - it’s the woman’s right to do with her body as she chooses
the government should not be involved at all while miscarriage risk is high (say, 20 weeks or so)
doctors should be the targets for any illegal abortion procedure, and medical data cannot be the subject of a subpoena (that would otherwise violate the women’s privacy)
after the initial “hands off” period, doctors (or anyone other than the mother) could only be charged with a crime for knowingly performing an abortion illegally, and abortions would be allowed to preserve the mother’s life or to euthanize the child if complications would be significant
if a mother decides to not keep the baby, the delivery should be performed as early as is safe, and the costs would be covered by the state
I’m okay with abortion being technically illegal, but the above would likely make it legal for all intents and purposes, and I’m okay with that.
I completely agree with you, and that’s precisely why I’m effectively pro-choice. Women should have absolute privacy here.
My wife has had a miscarriage before, and my coworker had to walk back a pregnancy after a miscarriage. I’m absolutely sympathetic to that, hence why I’m so adamant that privacy is always respected. I also think women have absolute control over what they do with their body, so even if they are trying to induce a miscarriage, I think the should be completely free to do that and never the subject of a criminal charge.
I’m not sure how what I wrote could be misconstrued to the contrary.
Why wouldn’t doctors want to? The first trimester is essentially a blank check (the vast majority of abortions), and everything after that has a pretty high bar (intent plus sealed medical history). The likelihood of anyone getting charged is incredibly low, especially if they can point to any form of medical expediency.
It would be similar to the self-defense laws in many red states, they’re so loose that charges almost never stick if there’s any possibility that it was self defense.
But why start out with a goal of “technically illegal but defacto legal” - that seems inherently bad no matter what the issue is. The laws should be what we agree the laws to be, not what we agree them to be but then wink and fail to enforce.
The “goal” here is to respect the rights of both the mother and the child. The mother has a right to her body, but the fetus also has a right to life. Usually it’s easy to craft policy such that “my rights end where yours begin,” but they overlap in this case.
It doesn’t make sense to me to give the woman priority just because she can communicate her wants and needs. I think pro-life people generally go way too fast in prioritizing the rights of the unborn, and pro-choice people go too far in prioritizing the rights of the mother. So that’s why I have this compromise, it:
prioritizes the woman’s rights at the most important time - limits harassment about miscarriages, allows confidentiality in cases of rape and incest, and provides a backup plan for those who cannot afford to be mothers
retains the mother’s discretion in handling medical issues
prioritizes the fetus’ rights at all other times
errs on the side of the mother if there’s a conflict (e.g. mother’s life is at risk)
I think it’s a fair balance. It does prioritize the mother, but only when the alternative involves likely harassment of many innocent innocent people (like in the article), so I think it’s a fair compromise.
There needs to be exactly two groups involved in deciding to terminate a pregnancy: The pregnant person, and their medical team, with the pregnant person’s choices taking precedence over everyone else’s. If they want an abortion, they get one. If the doctors believe that the pregnancy is non-viable or carries an extreme risk to the parent, then the decision to terminate should be made only by the pregnant person.
It would be similar to the self-defense laws in many red states, they’re so loose that charges almost never stick if there’s any possibility that it was self defense.
And the doctors now risk getting arrested and having their mugshot published for everyone to see, having to go to court to fight it, possibly spending time in jail while waiting for trial. There’s a saying “You may beat the rap, but you won’t beat the ride”.
I agree, but only for the first half of the pregnancy.
If the doctors believe that the pregnancy is non-viable or carries an extreme risk to the parent, then the decision to terminate should be made only by the pregnant person.
Also agree. Abortion for medical necessity should be allowed for the entire pregnancy.
And the doctors now risk getting arrested
Only if they violate the above. Doctors can already get arrested for malpractice, and I see this as essentially euthanasia of an unwilling patient. Police would need to prove intent to violate the law.
I think it’s incredibly unlikely that doctors would actually be arrested unless they’re knowingly doing a lot of illegal abortions.
Yeah seems that way. People who think it’s okay for abortion to be illegal, whatever concessions they make, all seem to fall into the same few camps. Hate women, don’t understand the risks and long term effects of pregnancy on the human body, or don’t understand that an abortion is almost never done on what’s considered a baby. Generally a venn diagram that is almost an even circle.
You guys keep repeating that line when its obviously bullshit. It not about hating or controlling women, its obviously about believing the fetus has the right to protection. I just dont understand how you guys are falling for the line about wanting to control women.
I would believe this more if the people who were prolife also believed in other socially progressive policies, but it seems their care and respect for the dignity of a human (or fetus in this case) ends after it’s born
This is another line that is wrong. I dont like “progressive policies” because they create slaves of the state and I emphatically disagree that they are actually helping the people they are supposed to be helping. The war on poverty would be the best example of this.
Well, the alternative is slaves to corporations, which isn’t going so well. The only reason it’s not worse is government interventions. There is a significant percentage of the population that can’t fend for themselves or have little value to employers. Your approach basically condemns them to die or live in abject poverty. It also causes crime as they run out of other options. There’s no reason that a society with as much wealth as we have has to be this way. Everyone deserves to have at least food, shelter, medical care, and basic necessities. As technology advances, the share of the population with no value to employers is likely to grow significantly in the near future, so you may find yourself eating your words
People are down voting you because you’re routinely misrepresenting or misunderstanding them all over this thread. Since your comments are perfectly clear otherwise this is leading other commenters to believe you’re acting in bad or trolling.
Actually this very comment of yours that I’m responding to is a pretty good example of that.
This is not in any way limited to left wing social media lol… Donald Trump is the master of name-calling and Truth Social and the like is littered with his euphemisms. Pay more attention.
How so? Abortion is a hotly debated topic among libertarians. Many are in favor on the grounds the women should be in complete control of whatever happens in their body. Those against point to the rights of the unborn as something to be protected as well (in a similar sense as a mentally unwell person who cannot assert their own rights).
Both sides want privacy to be maintained, and that was the grounds for Roe v Wade. I’m arguing that we should have something like Roe v Wade on the books as law that makes abortion effectively legal, but have enough protection of the fetus that it’s technically illegal if there’s no medical reason for it to be performed.
So in short, here’s my proposed policy:
first 20 weeks - no restrictions, and have that enshrined in law; there’s too much at stake for the woman here - the only restriction is if the woman has willfully learned of the gender (again, needs to be proven without access to medical history)
before viability - only doctors may be prosecuted, and only on the grounds of performing an abortion they knew to be medically unnecessary (must prove motive, in other words); again, no access to personal medical records, and there can maybe be a carve-out for women who didn’t know they were pregnant until the second trimester
after viability - only doctors may be prosecuted, and only on the grounds of medical necessity (as in, even an emergency delivery is impractical; doctors are held more liable since it would need to pass the “reasonable person” standard); if the mother chooses to not keep the baby, the delivery would be funded by the state
That’s a pretty loose policy which prioritizes the privacy of the mother at every turn and completely allows it during the most important period (when miscarriages are high and women are learning that they’re pregnant).
A person who wants the State to threat with violence to the possibility of a person not accepting their body to be used for the sake of another, having their health and even life be put at risk for it, is not a libertarian. Would you want the State to force people to have their blood extracted if there were patients in hospitals requiring blood to survive, but not enough supply? A person who replies yes is not a libertarian; a person who replies not, but is fine with prosecuting doctors or patients for performing or seeking abortions is a hypocrite.
I explicitly said women should never be charged with a crime for seeking or attempting an abortion. I said doctors should be charged for performing an illegal abortion since they’re directly harming the fetus. Doctors would know where this line is, which must meet be after the first 20 weeks or after the mother knows the gender, and is not medically necessary.
I’ll say it again too be clear, mothers should never be charged with attempting to abort their own pregnancy. Ever.
It’s a good thing I answer no to your question. Doctors can be charged with malpractice, and that’s what I see this as, it’s like euthanizing an unwilling patient (I’m in favor of legalizing consensual euthanasia and doctor assisted suicide though). The fetus hasn’t consented and cannot consent, so doctors are responsible for preserving its life where possible.
And there it is. This is the main reason I’m effectively pro-choice, while technically being pro-life.
In case anyone cares, here’s my specific policy preferences:
I’m okay with abortion being technically illegal, but the above would likely make it legal for all intents and purposes, and I’m okay with that.
Tell me you understand nothing about the risks of pregnancy without telling me.
Natural miscarriages =/= abortions.
One is planned, controlled for, with after care. The other one can potentially lead to sepsis and death.
I completely agree with you, and that’s precisely why I’m effectively pro-choice. Women should have absolute privacy here.
My wife has had a miscarriage before, and my coworker had to walk back a pregnancy after a miscarriage. I’m absolutely sympathetic to that, hence why I’m so adamant that privacy is always respected. I also think women have absolute control over what they do with their body, so even if they are trying to induce a miscarriage, I think the should be completely free to do that and never the subject of a criminal charge.
I’m not sure how what I wrote could be misconstrued to the contrary.
Do you have any ideas how few doctors are going to be willing provide care if this is the state of abortion law?
As someone who has never been involved with an abortion and would not want that choice made, I am not.
Why wouldn’t doctors want to? The first trimester is essentially a blank check (the vast majority of abortions), and everything after that has a pretty high bar (intent plus sealed medical history). The likelihood of anyone getting charged is incredibly low, especially if they can point to any form of medical expediency.
It would be similar to the self-defense laws in many red states, they’re so loose that charges almost never stick if there’s any possibility that it was self defense.
The short answer is liability.
Here’s where we already are in the current circumstance, just pick the article you want: https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=ob%252Fgyn+leave+red+states
But why start out with a goal of “technically illegal but defacto legal” - that seems inherently bad no matter what the issue is. The laws should be what we agree the laws to be, not what we agree them to be but then wink and fail to enforce.
The “goal” here is to respect the rights of both the mother and the child. The mother has a right to her body, but the fetus also has a right to life. Usually it’s easy to craft policy such that “my rights end where yours begin,” but they overlap in this case.
It doesn’t make sense to me to give the woman priority just because she can communicate her wants and needs. I think pro-life people generally go way too fast in prioritizing the rights of the unborn, and pro-choice people go too far in prioritizing the rights of the mother. So that’s why I have this compromise, it:
I think it’s a fair balance. It does prioritize the mother, but only when the alternative involves likely harassment of many innocent innocent people (like in the article), so I think it’s a fair compromise.
There needs to be exactly two groups involved in deciding to terminate a pregnancy: The pregnant person, and their medical team, with the pregnant person’s choices taking precedence over everyone else’s. If they want an abortion, they get one. If the doctors believe that the pregnancy is non-viable or carries an extreme risk to the parent, then the decision to terminate should be made only by the pregnant person.
And the doctors now risk getting arrested and having their mugshot published for everyone to see, having to go to court to fight it, possibly spending time in jail while waiting for trial. There’s a saying “You may beat the rap, but you won’t beat the ride”.
I agree, but only for the first half of the pregnancy.
Also agree. Abortion for medical necessity should be allowed for the entire pregnancy.
Only if they violate the above. Doctors can already get arrested for malpractice, and I see this as essentially euthanasia of an unwilling patient. Police would need to prove intent to violate the law.
I think it’s incredibly unlikely that doctors would actually be arrested unless they’re knowingly doing a lot of illegal abortions.
Just say you hate women.
Yeah seems that way. People who think it’s okay for abortion to be illegal, whatever concessions they make, all seem to fall into the same few camps. Hate women, don’t understand the risks and long term effects of pregnancy on the human body, or don’t understand that an abortion is almost never done on what’s considered a baby. Generally a venn diagram that is almost an even circle.
You guys keep repeating that line when its obviously bullshit. It not about hating or controlling women, its obviously about believing the fetus has the right to protection. I just dont understand how you guys are falling for the line about wanting to control women.
I would believe this more if the people who were prolife also believed in other socially progressive policies, but it seems their care and respect for the dignity of a human (or fetus in this case) ends after it’s born
This is another line that is wrong. I dont like “progressive policies” because they create slaves of the state and I emphatically disagree that they are actually helping the people they are supposed to be helping. The war on poverty would be the best example of this.
Well, the alternative is slaves to corporations, which isn’t going so well. The only reason it’s not worse is government interventions. There is a significant percentage of the population that can’t fend for themselves or have little value to employers. Your approach basically condemns them to die or live in abject poverty. It also causes crime as they run out of other options. There’s no reason that a society with as much wealth as we have has to be this way. Everyone deserves to have at least food, shelter, medical care, and basic necessities. As technology advances, the share of the population with no value to employers is likely to grow significantly in the near future, so you may find yourself eating your words
Considering I’m married with kids and my wife is more against abortion than I am, I guess my wife also hates women. Good to know I guess.
“I married a woman” is a shit argument. I hope you don’t have daughters because your views prove neither of you care about their future.
Wow, you must be fun at parties.
Its the “you have to agree with me or you are bad” rhetoric. Literally we are not allowed to have different opinions anymore.
People are down voting you because you’re routinely misrepresenting or misunderstanding them all over this thread. Since your comments are perfectly clear otherwise this is leading other commenters to believe you’re acting in bad or trolling.
Actually this very comment of yours that I’m responding to is a pretty good example of that.
I dont really care if I get downvoted. Do you understand how people on left wing social media literally cant disagree or get called names?
This is not in any way limited to left wing social media lol… Donald Trump is the master of name-calling and Truth Social and the like is littered with his euphemisms. Pay more attention.
Yeah, it’s pretty annoying imo. I try to be respectful and articulate, and then run into nonsense like this.
Whatever, I guess some people are just like that.
I wish there was some way to only communicate to adults or people with reasonable thoughts. Half the comments are just lame insults.
Removed by mod
The joke writes itself.
How so? Abortion is a hotly debated topic among libertarians. Many are in favor on the grounds the women should be in complete control of whatever happens in their body. Those against point to the rights of the unborn as something to be protected as well (in a similar sense as a mentally unwell person who cannot assert their own rights).
Both sides want privacy to be maintained, and that was the grounds for Roe v Wade. I’m arguing that we should have something like Roe v Wade on the books as law that makes abortion effectively legal, but have enough protection of the fetus that it’s technically illegal if there’s no medical reason for it to be performed.
So in short, here’s my proposed policy:
That’s a pretty loose policy which prioritizes the privacy of the mother at every turn and completely allows it during the most important period (when miscarriages are high and women are learning that they’re pregnant).
A person who wants the State to threat with violence to the possibility of a person not accepting their body to be used for the sake of another, having their health and even life be put at risk for it, is not a libertarian. Would you want the State to force people to have their blood extracted if there were patients in hospitals requiring blood to survive, but not enough supply? A person who replies yes is not a libertarian; a person who replies not, but is fine with prosecuting doctors or patients for performing or seeking abortions is a hypocrite.
I explicitly said women should never be charged with a crime for seeking or attempting an abortion. I said doctors should be charged for performing an illegal abortion since they’re directly harming the fetus. Doctors would know where this line is, which must meet be after the first 20 weeks or after the mother knows the gender, and is not medically necessary.
I’ll say it again too be clear, mothers should never be charged with attempting to abort their own pregnancy. Ever.
It’s a good thing I answer no to your question. Doctors can be charged with malpractice, and that’s what I see this as, it’s like euthanizing an unwilling patient (I’m in favor of legalizing consensual euthanasia and doctor assisted suicide though). The fetus hasn’t consented and cannot consent, so doctors are responsible for preserving its life where possible.