Shell Is Immediately Closing All Of Its California Hydrogen Stations | The oil giant is one of the big players in hydrogen globally, but even it can’t make its operations work here.::The oil giant is one of the big players in hydrogen globally, but even it can’t make its operations work here. All seven of its California stations will close immediately.

  • daqqad@lemmy.world
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    11 months ago

    What part of that confuses you? Hydrogen is better for cars VS batteries in every meaningful way in 2024. Long range, quick fill ups, zero harmful emissions, don’t need to live in SFH or rely on landlord/HOA to grant you the privilege of charging your car.

    Hydrogen cell cars are electric cars that don’t rely on severely underdeveloped technology of batteries we have today.

    • Tattorack@lemmy.world
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      11 months ago

      And where are you gonna get the hydrogen from? You have any idea how power inefficient electrolysis is!?

      • daqqad@lemmy.world
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        11 months ago

        Yes. Do you have any idea how much energy we’re wasting because nuclear power plants produce way more than we need because they can’t scale easily or that most green energy generation is at the time people don’t actually need it? Hydrogen is a prefect storage solution for that power.

    • SkyNTP@lemmy.ml
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      11 months ago

      You’re mostly right. But I don’t agree on the last part. Hydrogen production can’t be done in your backyard. But electricity can (and I forgive you if have no backyard, these next few points may be less relevant if that is the case).

      Unlike hydrogen, electricity production is affordable, scalable, and ubiquitous. And that small detail changes the benefits dramatically.

      • The idea of being your own gas station, from the grid, or from your own solar, is really compelling. No one likes being at the mercy of fluctuating energy prices, or, as in this case, unreliable and scarce availability of fuel.
      • Many people don’t like going to gas stations (e.g. women and personal safety). Totally doable outside of road trips.
      • If you are generating your own electricity you will need batteries anyway. Might as well put wheels on them: two birds one stone.
      • Even if you don’t generate your own power, you still want power security during outage. Since the battery is on wheels, you can drive it to a place that does have power to top up.

      Again, I can see that these are less compelling points if you live in a super dense area and utilities and supply chain there are really dependable. But this is hardly the case everywhere.

      And then there’s the build of the car itself. Honestly, I know nothing about it, but something tells me the simplicity of battery and electric motors makes those cars more practical to build, especially if the battery itself is commoditized as part of a complete electric grid solution.

      • Flying Squid@lemmy.world
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        11 months ago

        Many people don’t like going to gas stations

        Honestly, and I don’t want to sound selfish here, but never having to get out at a gas station in the middle of winter again is the biggest draw of an EV for me. Especially since I rarely drive more than about 60 miles.

      • daqqad@lemmy.world
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        11 months ago

        Most people in the world cannot put solar panels on their roof today. Even if you exclude all the places people don’t own cars I still think my statement will be true.

    • june@lemmy.world
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      11 months ago

      Sure. All that’s great.

      But I’m talking about infrastructure, not technology.

      • daqqad@lemmy.world
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        11 months ago

        Infra is result of people jumping on wrong tech. Batteries don’t belong in cars in their current state of development.

    • wizardbeard@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      11 months ago

      Wait what? How in the fuck could an HOA prevent you from charging your car or installing a charger inside your space? The charger lives inside your garage, so it doesn’t effect curbside appearance and isn’t within what they can control.

      At absolute worst, if you have no garage and street parking, wouldn’t you just be running the cord over to your vehicle? Non-commercial charging stations aren’t normally weather proof, so that wouldn’t be outside, and again, none of their business. If they have an issue with an extension cord running across your lawn, or a cable slightly larger than a hose, then they’d have to make sane rules about how long it can be left out, like not just leaving it plugged in for a whole weekend straight. Otherwise they’re making it against the rules for people to use corded yard equipment or use a hose.

      I might be missing something here, but I don’t see any way an HOA could do anything against it.

      • daqqad@lemmy.world
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        11 months ago

        No offense, but your response means you’re either the luckiest person in the world and live in a utopian HOA or much more realistically have zero experience with the stupid fucking cancer that is currently infesting more and more properties.

        It took me years of paying lawyers and dealing with some of the stupidest and most stubborn people on the planet to try to install a charger near my spot in a shared garage. At my expense and with all requirements met, it was still easier to move than convince those fucking assholes that we’re in 2020 and cars use electricity.

        No HOA on this planet will let you just run a cord even if you don’t consider that this would likely restrict you to level one charging and expose you to power theft.

    • jaemo@sh.itjust.works
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      11 months ago

      Yes! A clean platform that needs METRIC GIGATONS of carbon positive infrastructure to set up and maintain. That is why I call shenanigans on your zero harmful emissions claim.

      VS

      We already have wires, and batteries are more than good enough for a vast swath of the everyday commuting public.

      • daqqad@lemmy.world
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        11 months ago

        Hydrogen can be generated any time. Like when nuclear or solar or wind energy is otherwise going to waste. We don’t have and likely won’t have batteries that could replace it for decades.

        Modern batteries are absolute shit and definitely not good enough. I think a good indication that batteries are anywhere near useful will be when you can fly on battery power across the Atlantic.

        • jaemo@sh.itjust.works
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          11 months ago

          Ok chief, you know best. Better sit out buying a vehicle until the dust settles then I guess.

          Meanwhile, I’ll be charging my ‘not good enough’ EV and trying not to let the fact that it doesn’t measure up to your standards weigh to heavily on me.

          • daqqad@lemmy.world
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            11 months ago

            I already have an EV and I still think batteries in them are shit. These are not mutually exclusive.

            • jaemo@sh.itjust.works
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              11 months ago

              Hmm is it a leaf perchance? I’m very very happy with the 2020 Ioniq, it’s been solid, reliable, and true to its mileage estimate (I actually get 25km more range at 100% than the advertised specs)

              I’ve heard negative stories about Nissan’s battery tech - which is why I ask. Air cooling is not really helpful to lithium battery cells.

              It’s also possible you just got a bad module, and/or that you just have higher standards and expectations than I do, and these are also not mutually exclusive.

              • daqqad@lemmy.world
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                11 months ago

                I have an Outlander and I’m also getting more range than advertised specs. My issue with batteries isn’t defects in tech, but the stage of its development. There are simply no batteries that can even come close to energy storage capacity of hydrogen and unlike with gas (12-30%), hydrogen’s conversion efficiency when using fuel cell is ~60%.

      • SupraMario@lemmy.world
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        11 months ago

        They make solar stations that will pull hydrogen right from the atmosphere. What carbon are you talking about…and you do realize the same power that would be used to make hydrogen in your example would also be charging batteries.

    • Kecessa@sh.itjust.works
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      11 months ago

      Instead you rely on Shell to provide hydrogen to you when there’s no pre-existing infrastructure to deliver it and… Oh, looks like they decided to put an end to it, have fun with your brick on wheels 🤷

      • hightime@lemmy.world
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        11 months ago

        Instead you rely on Shell

        that’s the whole point tho, for them to sell you special fuel, that you can’t get yourself, like you could with solar panels. this is more serious threat from fleets of trucks, those companies are already building their solar farms to charge their trucks. that’s somewhat catastrophic for companies selling fuel nowadays. of-course they’ll push their magic fuel solution, forcefully. who do you think pays the hydrogen shilling campaigns?

      • daqqad@lemmy.world
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        11 months ago

        Shell is one of many companies providing hydrogen fuel stations. Infra may not be where it should be, but I blame that on all the people who jumped on battery powered cars at a time battery tech is years of not decades away from being good in vehicles.

    • Ejh3k@lemmy.world
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      11 months ago

      Not to mention all the ecological damage mining for battery components does. I’m with you, hydrogen is the way to go

      • SeaJ@lemm.ee
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        11 months ago

        A huge portion of our battery materials come from the Atacama Desert. There is no life at all in a lot of it.

        You do know that we get most of our hydrogen from burning fossil fuels, right?

      • Nudding@lemmy.world
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        11 months ago

        Unfortunately they’re both death sentences. It’s either public transport or climate apocalypse.