Alabama, unless stopped by the courts, intends to strap Kenneth Eugene Smith to a gurney Thursday and use a gas mask to replace breathable air with nitrogen, depriving him of oxygen, in the nation’s first execution attempt with the method.
The Alabama attorney general’s office told federal appeals court judges last week that nitrogen hypoxia is “the most painless and humane method of execution known to man.” But what exactly Smith, 58, will feel after the warden switches on the gas is unknown, some doctors and critics say.
“What effect the condemned person will feel from the nitrogen gas itself, no one knows,” Dr. Jeffrey Keller, president of the American College of Correctional Physicians, wrote in an email. “This has never been done before. It is an experimental procedure.”
Keller, who was not involved in developing the Alabama protocol, said the plan is to “eliminate all of the oxygen from the air” that Smith is breathing by replacing it with nitrogen.
We actually do know the effect of breathing nitrogen gas. It’s a hell of a lot better than injecting someone with a drug cocktail. I don’t agree with the death penalty but this is about as humane as the death penalty gets.
Exactly. They make it sound as if nobody ever got exposed to low oxygen atmospheres. Absurd. Just the stories of divers is so so much. You feel absolutely nothing and then it goes black. Real simple.
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Yes, apoxia is the way to go if you have to.
“What effect the condemned person will feel from the nitrogen gas itself, no one knows,” Dr. Jeffrey Keller, president of the American College of Correctional Physicians, wrote in an email. “This has never been done before. It is an experimental procedure.”
We do, in fact, know what a person feels from nitrogen suffocation, and we know because nitrogen suffocation happens accidentally with some degree of regularity from workers that don’t follow proper safety protocols.
At first you feel out of breath, but you don’t feel panic from it; it’s like exhaling everything in your lungs, and then breathing in solely from a helium filled balloon (which I’m guessing most people have tried). You feel slightly high and light headed because the oxygen in your bloodstream is rapidly depleted; you are hypoxic. As you take a second and third breath, your vision tunnels, and you pass out. Your body has a mechanism to detect a dangerous buildup of carbon dioxide in your blood, but since you’re expelling the CO2 with every breath out, and breathing nitrogen back in, that panic response doesn’t get tripped.
Nitrogen suffocation has been a preferred choice for right-to-die advocates.
We can argue about how the death penalty is applied, and whether it should exist at all (I believe it should, but is almost always inappropriate), but there’s no serious argument about whether nitrogen suffocation is a good or bad way to die. The people continuously fighting against this execution are fighting the method because they’ve lost all their other avenues to prevent the execution; attempting to call this process ‘untested’–when it’s been tested by a large number of people using it to end their own lives, and tested via industrial accidents–is the only option that they have left to prevent this execution.
Thank you, I’ve been wondering why we’re suddenly seeing all this hub bub around nitrogen execution when it’s 100% obviously a better method than the barbaric injected cocktail that regularly fails. Thought I was taking crazy pills.
Lethal injection performs as it was designed to: it’s agony. You’re paralyzed, then given a heart attack.
Done correctly, lethal injection is quite humane. We do it with pets; you administer a strong sedative, and then you use an overdose of a barbiturate to stop the heart (which is not the same as a heart attack). But that’s **not **how lethal injections are typically done in the US, esp. since pharmaceutical companies don’t want to sell their medications to prisons to be used to execute prisoners; that was because anti-death penalty advocates found ways to put pressure on drug companies. But how do you stop the sale of nitrogen to a prison? I can literally go buy a tank from any welding supply company.
Edit: the sedative is used to prevent feelings of fear or panic when the heart stops.
Wrong.
The method used in human execution uses Potassium Chloride to stop the heart, not Pentobarbital. It literally causes a heart attack.
You don’t know what you’re talking about, and a quick search what have shown you that.
“If the person being executed were not already completely unconscious, the injection of a highly concentrated solution of potassium chloride could cause severe pain at the site of the IV line, as well as along the punctured vein; it interrupts the electrical activity of the heart muscle and causes it to stop beating, bringing about the death of the person being executed.”
Based on this thread, it sounds like the new method should be getting the death row inmate crazy high on something, AND THEN you give them the nitrogen mask.
I’m not pro death penalty, mostly because we suck at not convicting innocent people, but if we’re going to execute someone this is probably the best way, and have thought this is how it should be done for a while. I’m not suicidal but if I was going to do it it would be with nitrogen.
You still have to take at least 3 breaths knowing you are killing yourself as you do so, and if you so choose can make the moment more awkward by holding your breath and struggling and/or screaming.
Surely the actual best way is completely instant and unavoidable like being crushed by a giant weight that moves faster than the human reaction speed and completely obliterates the body, or having your head exploded by a cannon ball or being completely instantly atomized by a massive explosion?
Doesnt carbon-monoxide do this too?
Yes, even faster as CO will displace oxygen from your blood.
Really any inert gas will do it. Nitrogen is just the most plentiful and thus easiest and cheapest.
Well. Yes, but also no. CO poisoning will make you feel sick. That might be because it’s not enough CO.
thank you. the number of incorrect statements by people who just don’t get the physiology in this article was driving me nuts. As long as no CO2 buildup happens, you have no feeling of air starvation. That’s why certain types of re-breather accidents can get out of hand so quickly.
As someone who has been a bit too close to a leaky nitrogen tank, it just felt like I had stood up too quickly. There was nothing painful about the experience, and if I had been hit with a higher dose I imagine I would have been unconscious before feeling anything.
Don’t get me wrong, capital punishment is bad, but this feels like one of the least bad ways to go.
Many divers have also died from nitrogen narcosis and apparently it’s like being drunk / off your tits from N20 / ket.
IMHO, executions don’t make sense given the amount of innocent people that we keep finding on death row.
It makes even less sense given that we need to have a long expensive, and highly imperfect, appellate process to double check that we’re not killing innocent people.
Also, we don’t really have any good data to support the claim that the death penalty deters people from committing terrible crimes. People that are going to do something -that- bad are usually going to do it.
I don’t see it as intended as a deterrent so much as a statement of values. A way of saying some things are not games or forgivable.
But in order to make that statement of values, are you willing to execute innocent people and to divert money away from other public programs that uphold other important values?
Life without parole would have the same effect though.
I don’t want absolute human garbage to be given food and accomodations paid by taxes for the rest of their lives.
That’s why you lock them up forever. Unless of course later evidence vindicates them, since the justice system is imperfect and innocent people do occasionally get wrongly convicted. Y’know what totally prevents later vindication if someone was wrongly convicted?
Whether or not some crimes deserve the death penalty, so long as it’s possible for innocent people to be convicted, the death penalty is morally unjustifiable.
Like murdering an innocent person?
You wrote a contradiction in which it’s not a deterrent but is one too.
We know exactly what happens when people experience nitrogen hypoxia. They get confused, then they lose consciousness, then die only if deprived of oxygen for quite some time.
We know because many people have experienced it and survived (because the oxygen was switched back on). I personally know someone who experienced this in a controlled test with the military.
An example of said training given to the untrained.
https://youtu.be/kUfF2MTnqAw?feature=shared
I wouldn’t want to die that way.
The pain might not be there but the realisation is.
He’s able to state that he doesn’t want to die, but needs help putting the mask on.
It’s a slow mental death, even if not a physically painful one, it’s slow.
The humane way to kill someone is quick and painless. Not slow and painless. This is better than the injection which is slow and painful but still not humane.
Your video shows exactly how painless it is, and in fact how it can cause euphoria instead. Besides, this execution method is fundamentally different because it removes oxygen completely while maintaining normal pressure, causing unconsciousness to happen much faster with fewer physiological responses.
Obviously execution is heinous at its very core, but your criticisms don’t seem to line up with the scientific facts.
Only when he knows he’s not meant to die.
If he was told he was going to die he’d be crying at the moment he realised he was dying. Which as you can see from the first time he said “I don’t want to die” would be several minutes.
“Scientific facts” are studies. We’re just people on the internet giving opinions.
YOU are giving opinions, I am giving facts. Here are a few peer reviewed studies that support my statements:
- Nitrogen Hypoxia in mice reduces stress instead of increases it like CO2
- Unconsciousness happens within 5-10 seconds when inhaling inert gases like helium or nitrogen, and does not trigger “suffocation” reflexes like with CO2 asphyxiation
- Nitrogen causes unconsciousness in seconds, but can cause “severe” convulsions unlike other types of gas such as propane or helium. This obviously wouldn’t bother the one dying, but it is upsetting in general.
Really, inert gas hypoxia is quite painless and fast, it’s a decent way to go. That being said, execution is barbaric practice we have no need of.
Well one of those is disputed by evidence directly. 5-10 seconds is clearly in a context irrelevant to the discussion.
But I’m glad you got a hit on your Google scholar search.
Care to read the papers too?
I don’t, you’re not displaying any reason at all.
I did read the papers and this process is extraordinarily similar to the process that is going to be used in the execution (immediate removal of all oxygen). Quote from the article:
The state of Alabama has predicted in federal court filings that the nitrogen gas will “cause unconsciousness within seconds, and cause death within minutes.”
This is exactly the context that is relevant to the discussion. Did you possibly have something else in mind?
That’s simply not how breathing works.
This is stating unconsciousness “within seconds”. How many.
120 is a normal range to pass out from complete oxygen deprivation… That’s also countable in minutes. It ranges from 30-180 seconds.
It’s slow.
Read the papers.
Abolish capital punishment. The US is such a freakin’ primitive country in so many ways.
I don’t know man, some people really, really deserve to be removed from existence:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luis_Garavito
How can you reform someone who raped, tortured, killed and then raped again (while dead) more than 100 minors?
Put yourself in the position of a father who knows this guy raped his kid, then tortured him with mutilation, and then raped the corpse.
Imagine knowing that this person is in jail, probably getting decent food and watching TV… Probably jerking off to the memories of the mutilated body parts of your child… while you have to live knowing he is still there.
I get that there are horrible people out there. No doubt. But the first thing societies like the US (and Colombia in this case) should do is to reform society to produce fewer of these people.
Much of Europe seems to have found a good recipe. Remove the desperation, especially economic desperation. Create equality. Promote health and community and less selfishness and greed. Focus on rehabilitation and productivity instead of punishment and passivity in prison systems.
Unfortunately, a lot of American leaders and voters see revenge as justice, many in the name of Christianity. Not exactly the Christian way from where I’m sitting, but that’s reality.
I don’t see it as revenge but instead as a means to let families move on. I think it is a burden to them knowing this person is still somewhere out there, even if they are locked.
These are pretty special cases. I think countries with capital punishment take those sentences very seriously, it’s not like they go around killing people for funsies.
I think that particular individual that I sent really should be killed. It’s just too much, his case is just too extreme. This is just an evil person… Raping, TORTURING, killing and raping again 300+ innocent minors in the span of 7 years.
He raped, tortured and killed one minor per week in average, for 7 years. Doing that a single time is INSANE. Doing that 300+ times just deserves death.
I get what you’re saying. I disagree, because I just find the concept of capital punishment ethically and morally wrong. Just because someone killed, no matter how and how many, doesn’t give us the right to kill. Not as individuals and not as a society. We have to be better than that.
That’s what supermax prisons are for. Do you think they’re pleasant places to spend the rest of your life?
Put yourself in the position of…
That is not how the law works. if the law worked based on how you would feel if you put yourself in the place of a person, you’d get “it would feel bad to be stolen from, but it would feel good to steal, therefore they are the same.” If you could only place yourself in the place of the victim, no one would be innocent because it would feel bad, and thus they must be guilty. It’s a ridiculous concept. What if I imagine myself as the father and I also imagine I don’t care, should murder be legal?
He killed and raped x many people
So did the US army. Rape isn’t punishable by death, for good reason. It’s only added here as an appeal to emotion with no reflection on how it would impact legal process. Rape is very hard to prove, and also way more common than murder. Based on the average number of rape cases and the average length of a death penalty case you’d have half a million 20-year-long cases a year every year forever in the US alone.
Then when it comes to killing lots of people - obviously I’m not defending it, but lots of people kill lots of people. Tobacco manufacturers, car manufacturers, armies, secret services, the police, doctors when things go wrong - or even when things go right but the person can’t be saved…
It’s all well and good to look at one guy and say “this person should die,” but the problem is the law has to be administered fairly and for everyone or there’ll be no law, so when you look at 16,000 people per year every year, it looks very different .
Don’t critics always and only raise doubts? How about making the article about what experts say instead of critics?
While I abhor the death penalty, the science is pretty solid on nitrogen being more humane from a medical perspective. What gives someone the feeling of suffocation is excessive CO2, not the lack of oxygen.
It’s actually a problem with closed-circuit rebreathers. If the CO2 scrubber keeps working but the Oxygen tank runs empty, the person on the rebreather will feel fine until they pass out.
The worst thing for the victim in the execution will be the psychological horror from wearing the mask and knowledge of what’s happening. If they’re goikg to do this, they should just change out the air in a sealed chamber while the victim sleeps.
The problem is that we don’t have a good way to measure if something is humane. They observe, they see the victim not doing anything like thrashing about or screaming, they assume everything is okay.
But all that tells us is that the person is unable to show any suffering. Not that they’re not suffering.
What we really need is to study where people get mostly suffocated by nitrogen, but then brought back, and ask them how it felt.
That’s essentially what the rebreather problem demonstrates.
And we’ve known forever that it’s CO2 that gives the sensation of suffocation.
It’s why hyperventilating before freediving is so dangerous. People expel all the CO2 in their system to reduce the feeling of air starvation and pass out underwater without realizing they’re about to drown.
Well thanks. That’s a new horrifying fear to have.
Don’t hyperventilate before freediving and it’s not a problem.
There’s actually a bunch of information on it from industrial accidents and workers not following protocols. Critics tend to ignore it because their goal is to sway public opinion against execution in general.
TBH, in theory I wouldn’t be against execution but our justice system is SO fallible I don’t trust it ever.
Uh, this has been done to a certain extent? Any person who almost suffocated by stupidly inhaling helium out of a balloon can tell you about their experience. It’s usually them asking “What did just happen? Did I pass out?!”
Nitrogen isn’t helium ofc. But yes, let’s do that with nitrogen in a controlled setting.
It’s been done, in industrial accidents and other cases, but helium is probably more common for average people to experience. Both gasses are inert (have no effect on our biology) and displace oxygen.
P.S. I believe there’s even some companies that offer hypoxia training for pilots and mountain climbers using increased nitrogen instead of reduced pressure. (Such training helps pilots recognize the warning signs so they can activate supplementary oxygen.) This lets them do it without a special pressure chamber, and a quicker recovery to standard atmosphere if someone has a problem.
We breath in nitrogen 24/7. Air is about 78% nitrogen.
I think critics being negative, raising doubts and being vocal is important. Sure, they might not be the brightest or have a degree related to whatever they criticize but they raise concerns, give different points of view that experts could neglect and spark debate on such subjects. When it’s something as touchy and final as a death penalty, I’m glad they’re around.
The critics are by definition the people raising doubts though. It’s a non-statement. The state should not be trusted with the power to kill people, but if you absolutely must have a death penalty, this is the way to do it.
I want to recap the long sequence of events that has led up to this point:
- In the beginning of this narrative, every death penalty state was doing lethal injections with a three drug protocol.
- Italy and maybe some other European nations start arresting pharmaceutical executives and charging them with murder, because their drugs are being used for these lethal injections in the United States.
- Drug companies stop selling their drugs to state penitentiaries. States are not able to perform executions.
- Death penalty states start amending their protocols to switch to different drugs and sometimes a single dose barbiturate protocol.
- Those drugs become harder and harder to source. Pharma companies become completely unwilling to dispense the drugs at all. State legislatures start allowing corrections officials to change the protocol without amending state law, in an effort to keep up.
- States resort to buying drugs from shady compounding pharmacies in secret. Having prison guards write dosage protocols turns out to have been a bad idea. Because, guess what, anesthesiologists are a highly compensated medical specialty, because what they do is highly complicated. So some exit l executions are botched, which delays things even more.
- It’s in this environment that this nitrogen idea migrates from internet boards into the state legislatures.
The big picture here is that if execution remains legal, but you take away all the options, death penalty states will go looking for alternative options.
This is super interesting and I’d love it if you had some sources I could follow. Trying to dig but Google is useless these days.
I think we need to go and get sharks with freaking lazer beams attached to their heads
I’d die to get out of Alabama too.
Okay, can someone explain to me why states with capital punishment don’t just inject someone with a bunch of morphine and they just go to sleep and never wake up again? I hear all the time about the horrific shit they inject into people and the horrible deaths they suffer, while one easy drug can execute the person with no fuss? I just don’t understand.
There’s a great Jacob Geller video about how methods of execution have evolved and why they’ve evolved.
I wouldn’t do it justice but it points out how every time we make a ‘more humane’ way of killing it often just reduces the person’s ability to show suffering, rather than reducing the suffering itself. In many cases the suffering is increased as we say the method is less barbaric; a firing squad has the highest success rate and likely the fastest death.
I can’t recommend this enough https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eirR4FHY2YY Piped bot do your thing
We should abolish the death penalty.
Pretending no one knows what happens when people breathe pure nitrogen until they die is absolutely ludicrous. Especially because what you’re breathing right now is mostly nitrogen.
We know what happens because it happens to mine workers and scuba divers and others by accident. It’s pretty pain/panic-less, which is normally why it’s such a big deal to try and avoid. It’s advocated for as a method by right-to-die proponents because it’s so painless. Pretending this is random human experimentation just gives leverage to dismiss the entire argument.
At least it was painless /s
I do agree the death penalty should be abolished, by the way
Remember when Edison electrocuted a bunch of animals to prove how dangerous AC was? Do you not believe AC can be used correctly?
Nitrogen is one of the methods advocated for by right-to-die advocates for a reason.
Botched execution of the execution are one of the reasons there shouldn’t be executions. A bunch of guys “playing it by ear” who want the accused to suffer are not going to do a good job.
I agree wholeheartedly. My point was more that if you’re making execution into a pseudo-medical event (For example with lethal injections) then you’re going to have more botched executions since the people performing them aren’t medical personnel.
While I don’t believe we should have executions a gun is designed to be used with little training, but syringes and medical gas supply masks (Don’t know the actual name for them) are meant to be used with training. If executions are going to happen surely we should consider the aptitude of those administering them?
We, as many other families before us at the Hillcrest palliative care hospital in San Diego, had to pull the plug on my Dad because the insurance company thought he wouldn’t recover so they used a psycho asshole to convince the family to just pull the plug. It’s not worth loosing your house over loosing the person who worked his ass off to buy it.
Now imagine how awesome one of us would feel if dying from oxygen deprivation was actually more painful than other means? Wouldn’t we then start asking for squad style send offs at the hospital?
I’ve been through pulling the plug and my dad didn’t speak English so he’s not gonna be mad if I joke about it…like you would go up to him and whisper some last words…“hey dad what’s the admin password to the router again? And he would say " I’m tired, I’ll tell you tomorrow. Then you would say, no you won’t dad, no you won’t, I’m so sorry”. He might ask what do you mean I won’t, you come back here you little shit and clarify that for me! But by that time you and your six siblings would each have cocked the guns already. One one of the guns would have the bullet and everyone would be blindfolded. Off they six pops go and then you grieve. Other things happen like the cleanup crew would have to do their job. The facial reconstructionist would come in with the hot glue gun and do his thing with spray paint and lipstick. I mean after they removed the gag.
But sure maybe lethal injection was the way to go. A little cleaner. You still gotta remove the gag later. I can’t imagine electrocution as a proper way. But maybe a last palliative sunset view with Dynamite on the bed and a dead man’s switch. That would be a real quick and painless way to go. Plus if you do it on a boat in Florida waters the circle of life would take care of it…and no awkward funeral!
Okay gotta go start the day 😁. This is all sarcasm and like I said, my dad doesn’t or didn’t speak English… with the gag and all…so anyway…
Is there a lemmy community for copypasta?
Did you enjoy my sarcasm? It’s unclear…hold on, I think it’s my phone.
