So France is starting an “experimental school uniform program” Sauce Do other countries also have that trend were conservative push for a school uniform rather than letting kids wear what they like ?
Uniforms are not exactly a conservative idea. You could argue that it is a return to tradition, but uniforms are functionally more progressive if anything.
I have been to, no joke, over a dozen schools in several countries, some with uniforms and some without, and I find uniforms to be a far better option. Yes, uniforms aren’t cheap and you don’t get to pick what to wear, but I here are some reasons why it is still very worth it:
- There is no pressure to dress well compared to peers, especially if they can’t afford to
- Kids are less likely to be bullied for what they wear
- Kids don’t have expend mental energy in the morning figuring out what to wear
- Uniforms are generally less restrive and more comfortable than what is currently in style
- It’s optionally a form of gender expression for young trans folks (in open minded schools)
- Wardrobe malfunctions can be resolved at school sometimes
- Kids can reuse hand-me-downs from siblings going to the same schools
- A sense of community among peers, especially when they recognize each other outside of school
- Helps with body image because uniforms generally obscures people’s silhouettes to the same degree, so there is less pressure to look a certain way
Total tosh. Those are the dogmatic points people have been rolling out for years without any basis in fact. The “great leveler” theory was useful post War when the differences were obvious, but they are largely irrelevant today.
The “Sense of community” is always translated by kids as “forced to conform to what their parents did”. They don’t want that, and frankly most people who want to feel free to express themselves don’t want it either. The wardrobe malfunction stuff is true for uniforms as well, especially if you are a 14yo girl (parents of daughters will understand). The same is true for basically all of the points you made. And body image problems are often made a lot worse by NOT having freedom to choose what you want to wear. Also, studies looking at uniform vs educational outcomes have never found statistical meaningful correlations for our against uniforms.
These days schools in the UK only have uniforms due to a tradition introduced for reasons no longer relevant today.
Have you been to both schools that have a uniform and schools that do not? I feel that a lot of people in this thread are speaking from one side of their experiences without regard for the other and then claiming it is some kind of propaganda. I don’t know what you want me and others to say other than that we’re not paid by Big Uniform to say anything.
I’ve unfortunately been to more schools than I’d like to, and there is a stark behavioral contrast in ones that do have a uniform, especially for public schools. The only ‘individuality’ that students are stripped of is the frequency of bullying, knife fights, truancy, and other behavioral problems. People in uniforms are just less of a jerk and more of a member of the school community. I’m not sure what phenomenon in behavioral science this is, but people are easier to discipline in uniform and it shows.
Yes. The junior school my kids went to has uniform. The senior school was not. I realise that is not quite the same thing though. That said I have a mix my friends had a mix of uniform and non-uniform schools, and their kids also are mix. Across the board the opinion from parents and children is uniforms are old fashioned and need to go.
That said there are undoubtedly regional issues, and the areas I, my kids, my friends, and their kids are in tend towards the middle-class and up, in terms of affluence. That would suggest a degree that affluence dictates behaviour, which is unfair because each school is different and the social background of the students doesn’t always tell you if the school is a nice place or not.
The studies around behaviour and uniform have found that uniform does play a part sometimes, but usually there are other route causes and attacks related to the clothes the kids wore was just a symptom of other issues. So the lack of a uniform does not tell you if behaviour is going to be good or bad in a school. Schools have other tools that are more effective at handling behavioural issues, and some schools just have a harder time due to their location.
I worked at a school in Leeds a few years ago. They closed 3 other schools and brought together 3 different racial groups into a new single school. It was a nightmare at first but over time has improved to the point they no longer need a permanent police presence. This school has a uniform, but I highly doubt that had anything to do with their troubles.
Just FYI but studies say that the poorer a kid is the more likely they are to go out of their way to dress in designer clothes and buy expensive things to hide the fact that they are poor to their peers, and this produces poorer outcomes when it comes to their education as they prioritise paid work and other activities aside from their own education to pay for these things. This leads to poorer academic results and dropping out of school to pursue paid work at the expense of their long-term future.
Self-expression and freedom is great but not in every circumstance.
Lack of uniform harms under-privileged population. School provided uniforms make everyone look more the same and there’s less differentiation based on how you dress and your ability to wear something new every day and still be fashionable. So no, it is not conservative where I am, even if some may support it for the wrong reasons.
Tldr: uniforms are an anachronism, used as means of constraining and controlling kids, and reminding them who is in charge.
Very long; reading if you like:
Using uniforms to disguise the differences between rich and poor was a post War idea that made a lot of sense in the UK. The introduction of public schools at the time brought kids together from a wide range of backgrounds just when those differences were very obvious. It all made a lot of sense. Also, English private schools had famously used uniforms as it created a certain image that they wanted. To a degree this is now true of public schools, and the “tradition” of wearing uniforms is often given as a reason to keep them.
In the UK, in 2024, there are always kids wearing uniforms that are unwashed, need repairing, or just the wrong size. But even without those signs the kids all know who is rich and who is not.
If you take kids out of their uniforms and let them wear their preferred clothes, the differences between become very hard to spot. Back in 1942 this was not true, but today you’d be hard pushed to tell who is rich and who is not making the original purpose irrelevant.
To setup a study of the impact of uniforms is logistically impossible, however all studies that look at educational outcomes found no correlation between uniform and exam results. This seems to disprove the claim that uniforms allow kids to do better in class.
Today, schools like to have uniforms for a few reasons. One, they claim it is part of the school identity, which is true to a degree. But it came about due to national hardship, and is a reminder of times we no longer need. Two, school rules on uniforms have always existed but have become more strict in recent years (speaking as a UK parent of 3 kids aged 12, 16, & 25). In the school my kids attend(ed), they will send letters home and punish kids for uniform related infractions the moment they happen. However, they don’t do the same for education related issues. It took 2 years for them to report the issues my daughter was having, and they seemed more concerned with her earnings than her school work when we spoke with them.
Dropping uniforms would reduce the load on teachers who would not need to constantly monitor and punish kids for wearing the wrong shoes, or coats, or bags, or having earrings even. There would still be some rules but they would allow far more latitude for self expression and freedom that kids in 2024 require. And this is an important point. For good or bad, modern children are exposed to information, news, behaviours, and attitudes from around the world, from a very early age. They are also going through the universal issues of adolescence. We need to accept they need freedom to express themselves, not find ways to constrain them.
On a side note, it is my own view that some schools are scared of giving kids freedom to choose, and the uniform rules are intended as a way to make them “conform” to a conservative standard. Uniform rules are effectively a stick they can smack kids with. Take it away and you take their power.
Poorer people (especially kids) tend to over-compensate with buying designer labels to hide the fact that they’re poor. This leads to worse outcomes for poorer kids who then prioritize income receiving work over their academic study to pay for these items. It also encourages dropping out of school to work and be cool by wearing the latest threads, neglecting their education for short term gain.
You can’t just assume that because kids these days will all be wearing similar styles of clothing that there is no impact in dropping mandatory uniforms from schools. At least mandatory uniforms set a standard that parents must abide by or be forced to explain themselves to authorities when it comes to providing for their children.
Funnily enough one of the things you can be sure of, is girls all want to look the same, but also be somehow better dressed than their friends. You are right that kids want expensive stuff and parents try to provide where they can. Whether this leads to bullying depends on a bunch of other factors. Kids who bully will do so either way, uniform or not.
I’m not denying bullying won’t happen however that’s different to peer pressure and the need to fit in, particularly for adolescents. Peer pressure comes from even your own friends and the choices they make independent of anything you do.
Indeed. Uniform or, not, per person will exist. I just think we are better off without uniforms, and we should always work towards “no uniform”.
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The UK has rocked uniforms for quite a while I believe. It’s not political. It just identifies you as a pupil of a specific school. Anyone who skips school needs to carry a change of clothes to avoid being - potentially - busted.
It also stops pupils from being singled out for not being able to afford expensive clothing, apparently.
Yes, I believe that’s true. With the exception of the make of your shoes and whatever (non uniform) coat you might wear everybody looks about the same. Almost like all children are equal…
New Zealand here. Our schools have always had uniforms. It’s not considered a conservative position.
Not sure if it’s necessarily a ‘conservative’ thing - in the UK (and maybe elsewhere) a lot of schools have uniforms, partly as a way to engender a sense of togetherness/community and partly because if everyone is wearing the same clothing, then socioeconomic differences aren’t so visibly contrasted by some kids wearing designer gear while others can only afford the less expensive stuff.
From that point of view you could see it as being quite an egalitarian idea - although the availability of affordable uniform is still a potential issue, and it’s important that lower income households are able to get the right clothes within budget.
I’ve heard the socioeconomic differences thing many, many times, and have kids that wear uniform. But I’ve never understood that argument.
It conceals socioeconomic differences. Which in the case of economic differences, is probably not egalitarian, strictly speaking? Ditto for social “class” in the sense of whether the family is historically “monied” and has particular dress style. In the case of cultural or ethnic differences, I do not see how the egalitarian logic follows either, as freely expressing your identity is restrained.
In terms of bullying… in my experience bullies will always bully. They will just do it on your overcoat, or how old your uniform is, or your earrings, or your accent, or the colour of your hair. I don’t know, maybe the uniform helps a bit…
Fair points and I agree that it only conceals the differences (and as the comment below yours points out, sometimes not even that).
Uniforms certainly don’t solve society’s inequalities - really all l meant was that they could be seen as an attempt at redress (excuse the pun), which is more than I would expect from conservatives (or Conservatives).
Uniforms don’t just conceal socioeconomic diffences they level the playing field for students, particularly at a venerable age with teenagers. Without uniforms and a dress code, there is more pressure to wear trendy designer clothing every day at school. What actually gets concealed is actual poverty instead, where poorer kids will prioritise work and activities outside school to pay for these items to fit in, leading to poorer academic outcomes and prospects for their futures.
A well-designed uniform and dress code system doesn’t allow for variations in material and uniform quality as it specifies exactly what must be used and how the uniforms must look and feel. It also specifies things like accessories, makeup etc that can be worn to further even things out.
Here in spain conservative parents take their children to religious schools which already have mandatory school uniform. So it’s not in their agenda to push it to non-religious schools.
It should be notes that these religious schools are public founded. Which is another topic by itself, but you should know that we already have public funded schools with mandatory uniform.
I went to a non-uniformed elementary school (which has since adopted a uniform), a uniformed high school, and then university which was obviously non-uniformed. I much preferred the uniformed years because I don’t care one whit about fashion I never had to think about what to wear.
Granted, my high school uniform had a lot of variety, considering. There were two cuts/styles for the long sleeved shirts, a short sleeve shirt, polo shirt, knit sweater, knit vest, knit cardigan, 1/4 zip sweatshirt, and blazer, which could be mixed and matched as you liked.
I don’t remember how the conversation came about, but in a previous office job, some discussion (among us low-level employees) came about regarding an office uniform. Most people were horrified by the idea, but I was totally for it.
Dunno in Brazil as a whole but at least in my city, school uniforms are default. They’re simply taken for granted, not a “conservative vs. liberal” matter. Each school picks its own, but it usually boils down to a shirt, baggy pants, and a jacket (most schools cut you some slack on really cold days to swap it with a warmer one).
Where I live, it’s both parties doing it depending on the school, like mine where a shirt/tie/skirt has been the norm despite being known for being uniform-free.
I thought this was already the norm in France.
I thought this was already the norm in France.
I am not that old, but the only school I knew with uniform was the all girl catholic school in my french hometown. And I believe a few years back, even them stopped having an uniform (and even merged some classes -for the older students- with the “all boy catholic source which never had an uniform”).
So until the experiment to be started in public school, it was very rare in France
Probably (definitely) an American thing, but I’m gonna wear jeans and a tshirt or you can fuck right off. What are they going to do if you show up that way? Make you leave? Good by me. Yall suck anyway.
