CNN reporting on some interesting survey results from the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research in Ramallah. Seven hundred and fifty adults were interviewed face to face in the West Bank, and 481 were interviewed in Gaza, also in person. The Gaza data collection was done during the recent truce, when it was safer for researchers to move about.
I find it challenging to navigate comment sections on this topic.
Firstly, Israel has the right to exist and defend itself against terrorism.
Secondly, Hamas is a designated terrorist organization. There is no justification for supporting such a group, just as you wouldn’t sympathize with ISIS or the Taliban.
What we can agree on is that Israel’s current right-wing government, spanning the past 20 years, has implemented policies criticized for creating an apartheid-like situation for Palestinians. The support for radical settlers and resulting violence against Palestinians is a legitimate concern.
It’s crucial to separate criticism of the Israeli government’s actions from questioning the right of Israel to exist. Criticize the policies, be concerned about the treatment of Palestinians, and advocate for a two-state solution that respects the rights and aspirations of both Israelis and Palestinians. Removing religion and right-wing politics from the equation could pave the way for a more equitable and peaceful coexistence.
Did they have a right to exist when they stole land and only got control over it after multiple wars?
Feels like zionists are working overtime to craft any argument that diverts attention away from their colonization.
Zionism is religious nationalism. It is the belief that Jews are entitled to the land of Israel.
Seems like you have no problem with the dozens of Muslim countries who have expelled every single Jew out of them, but have a problem with Jews claiming a right to live safely in the land they’re indigenous to.
What are you talking about with “indigenous to”. Israel is a colony. It was created through the removal of the indigenous people.
There have always been Jews in Israel/Palestine and 20% of Israeli citizens are Arabs, the only Arabs that were removed were the ones who either didn’t want to leave with Jews around or the ones that attacked them in 48, and lost.
Only in your head are Arabs the only indigenous inhabitants of this region lol.
You are conflating Zionists and Jews. Fuck all the murderous Israelis. Most people don’t care if they are Jewish or not.
Defensive wars. You just don’t want any Jews there big dog.
Acknowledging Israel’s right to exist doesn’t negate Palestinian rights.
While the establishment of Israel was rooted in the need for a Jewish homeland after WWII, it’s crucial to distinguish between historical necessity and subsequent political actions. The shift toward right-wing Zionism has influenced policies, but blaming the entire state of Israel and Jewish people in general oversimplifies a complex history.
Don’t get me wrong: religion should be out of politics, and this unnecessary war should get to a full stop. Attacking the right of people to form states (that applies for Palestinians and Jews) is not a solution to this conflict. It only ends in more death and more wars.
Americans said the same shit about squatter’s rights and manifest destiny.
There you go trying to conflate anti-Zionism with antisemitism. Nothing is wrong with “Jewish people in general.” Zionists, however, are on par with Nazis because they believe Jews are entitled to the land of Israel just like Nazis thought the Aryans were entitled to Eastern Europe.
Zionists are trying to solve their Palestinan Question with genocide just like Nazis tried to solve their Jewish Question (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_question) with genocide.
You, presumably a Zionist, get mad whenever these facts are presented because you do not like your religious nationalism to be exposed for what it is.
Zionism is the new Nazism. Treat Zionists as you would treat Nazis.
Israel has killed more civilians in 2 months than Russia has killed in 2 years, to put things into perspective.
Once again, my entire post opposes religious fanaticism, such as Zionism. And as well of atrocities of this conflict and an apartheid state created by Israel right wing politicians
Observe how many individuals, both here and across the internet, misunderstand the entire conflict, erroneously attributing atrocities committed by both sides to Jews in general. This is antisemitic and has no place in this context.
Both Palestinians and Jews have the right to peacefully share their country. Therefore, support the PLO instead of a terrorist organization like Hamas, which receives funding from Iran - another fanatic religious state.
Israeli jews are indigenous to the Middle East, many expelled from their homelands in places like Iraq, Egypt, and Yemen. Your claim of “colonialism” (the word you’re looking for here) may be a common view in the West, but it’s an outright misconception.
The wars you’re talking about: the big ones in 1948 and 1967 were started by groups of Arab states attacking Israel for declaring their independence. Israel defended itself.
Most importantly, October 7 of this year was an absolutely brutal bloodbath perpetrated against women, children, elderly people – civilians. Twenty-year-olds dancing for peace. Residents of left-leaning Kibbutzes, many of whom were outspoken supporters of Palestinian rights. Members of Hamas and other Palestinians streamed across the border and shot civilians, beheaded them, lit their houses on fire, killed their children with grenades, tied women and girls to trees and raped them.
The next day, before a single Israeli bomb had fallen in Gaza, there were demonstrations in the West against Israel.
But why does Israel have a right to exist? It’s not even 80 years old. That land was taken from the Palestinians, so it seems to me that the Palestinians have more right to the land than Israel does.
The answer to the conflict is definitely not genocide of either set of people and Hamas is certainly not going to stop their genocidal goals.
But no state has a “right” to exist, certainly not one that’s less than 80 years old and which stole and is still stealing land from another group of people.
You are asking a philosophical question, but the original justification for the creation of Israel is no longer satisfying with modern sensibilities.
The Ottoman Empire fell after WW1, after siding with Germany and losing. Turkey was strong enough to establish an independent state, but the southern part of the Empire was weak and without effective government. As such, it fell under the Mandates of France and the UK.
A Zionist movement had already formed in the late 19th century to basically reunite the Jewish diaspora in their long-ago historical homeland. After the Holocaust of WW2, the UN decided to create the State of Israel in Mandatory Palestine as a refuge for the Jews. The area was chosen for obvious historical reasons, though of course the Jews hadn’t had a state in the area for a very, very long time.
Philosophically, this is unsatisfying because it is based on old ideas of Great Power politics, imperial colonialism, and religion. Now, before anyone jumps in and starts railing against European imperialism, let’s remember that the Ottoman Empire was every bit as imperialist and prone to genocide as any other empire.
As philosophically unsatisfying as the reasoning behind the creation of the State of Israel seems today, Israel’s existence is now a well-established a fact on the ground. Of course, a fact on the ground has to be defended from challengers, which Israel has successfully done many times now. It has also earned the support the United States and many others. Even among its former enemies in the region, Israel has earned respect and a desire for normalized relations.
Do the Palestinians have the right to armed resistance? Sure, war is always an option, but victory in war is not given. It has to be taken by force. Ultimately, the right to exist is based on your ability to defend yourself. The State of Israel may only be 80 years old, but it has proven itself capable of defending its territory.
Are the Palestinians capable of taking back and defending territory? No, they are engaged in insurgency and guerilla warfare. This is a fine tactic in certain circumstances, such as Vietnam, Afghanistan, etc., but it’s ultimate success is predicated on wearing down the morale of an occupying force so that they will leave. It doesn’t work when the “occupying force” is on their own soil. Sure, Israel can be brought to the negotiating table to withdraw from the occupied parts of Palestine, but they’ll only do that in exchange for true guarantees of peace. Most of the world sees this as a necessary compromise, which is why Palestine remains as it is: occupied and awaiting final resolution. Palestinians have never accepted that they were beaten. Continuing with armed resistance is no doubt satisfying for many people, and a source of pride for Palestinians. Histories all over the world are full of stories about glorious resistance against impossible odds. However, it is also why tens of thousands of Palestinians are being killed right now.
The origin goes back to, no surprise, the British. Some politicians thought it would be good to grow their influence in the region, where they currently had none. Zionists wanted their own state there, and these politicians thought a growing Israeli population would give Britain more influence like they wanted.
The Zionist desire for a Jewish state is rather interesting, because there’s arguably some similarities to Palestinians. There was a pogrom against Jews during the years of the Russian revolution, and it led a prominent Jewish thinker to opine that Jews would never see peace nor be respected unless they had their own state. The original desire was born from wanting to be free from discrimination and violence.
Unfortunately, there was a cultural “enlightenment” at the time as well, and this gave rise to an extremist Zionist way of thinking. They warped the original intent of wanting a Jewish state, and here we are today. Zionist groups would go on to commit terror attacks in Mandated Palestine.
Circling back, does Israel have a right to exist? I would say no – but the Jewish people (completely separate from Israel) deserve to live in peace and with dignity. Just as the Palestinians deserve to live in peace and with dignity. And much like Zionist terrorists taking that pure desire and using it for their own ends, you have Hamas taking advantage of Palestinians and their anger.
It feels very hopeless at this point for the Israelis to recognize that Palestinians are like them, violently discriminated against in the past; and for Palestinians to recognize that Hamas is no better than the Zionist terrorists of the past.
Great post that really highlights the nuances of the situation with a satisfying conclusion.
I don’t know if I’d get the conclusion satisfying necessarily. It’s rather hopeless. And at the same time, it encompasses human history into a nutshell.
40 acres and a mule after millennia of genocide and slavery across Eurasia came to a crescendo in 1939. Thank the Brits and the West for the location and the borders. There were other options like an adjacent sister state to Liberia. The Jews didn’t make the decision in which. The imperialist colonisers at the time did… you know… only the haves can give anything to the have nots, bc have nots cannot jut decide to have…
Worst case… the West thought it was a disposable enough place to spare the expense and/or Western military outpost
Best case… centuries of friendship and living together between Jews and Muslims sounded like a good place… we did flee to the levant from European fascism, which would validate it sounded like a good idea at the time. (Unfortunately the Brits said there was no room and shipped the Jews back to Nazi Germany to die, but that’s another story)
A right wing minority party is waging ethnic class war right now. This is a problem for EVERYONE on earth except that party. Also, a powerful terrorist organization with philosophies of genocide controls an apartheid state’s pseudo sovereign government and commits terror acts on Israeli Jewish humans. Whether Bibi fed them or not, Likud aren’t the ones suffering personally.
Rights are for people, not countries. Israel is a European neo colony. Its existence stands on the same moral ground as French rule in Algeria.
Jews are indigenous to Judea which is in the current west bank, what are you talking about.
Let’s give southern Greece back to Sparta cause it belonged to them thousands of years ago. Same logic as Israel’s founding. It’s a genocidal European settler colony in the Middle East, no different than any other.