While I don’t intend to visit hooter, strip clubs or anything alike and I think people can be creeps even if they are acting completely within the consent of others.
But how is a man who wants to go to hooters a creep but a man who wants to consumes porn not? The exploitation of women in porn is arguably worse because while they consent to the recording (i mean if not… I don’t need to continue my point) oftentimes they sell all their rights and lose all control over the recording. Consequently there is no backing out if they no longer want to be seen like that. (Of course, there are other issues) If you work for hooters, you know wtf is going on before you were hired and if you quit, you are not longer exposed.
So what is creepy about hooters but not about porn?
Is it the simple fact that the man seeks out some kind of sexualized interact with the woman?
So what is creepy about hooters but not about porn?
In general the difference is the in person interaction. While porn does have some direction interaction it is remote and there is far less direct control by the consumer.
So it is less creepy to engage with porn than hooters while porn is arguably far more exploitative and dehumanising than hooters because the creep is interacting with the woman?
I really don’t know if I agree there and again, I think very poorly of hooters and their customers, I am not defending it.
Thanks, I enjoyed explore the topic with you. Ch00f is doing a good job that expressing their thoughts. I am not convinced but I respect their effort and skill.
The power dynamic between the porn actress and customer is different than between restaurant server and patron. The porn is filmed in a controlled environment, and even the live streams can be quit at any time. At a restaurant, the women are operating in a live environment, and their income is dependent on the patrons’ whims. The rules are fuzzy and you don’t know if your patron is going to understand the difference between friendly flirting and sexual attraction.
I got dragged to a strip club for a friend’s birthday. They were especially gross at the time in WA because you couldn’t drink at them. We were already drunk enough though.
Anyway, got a lap dance for $20. The first 30 seconds were the stripper explaining to me what I’m allowed to do. I.e. apparently you can rub your face on her boobs, but hands stay put. I’m sure if I broke that rule, a bouncer would beat the shit out of me. To maintain the “family friendly atmosphere,” restaurants like Hooters operate more on nuance that some patrons (like the person this post is about) may not understand.
This bit, on which a lot of the argument hinges, seems rather rose-tinted. An alarming number of women report being coerced into doing more than they agreed to, once on set.
I don’t see how you conclude that e.g. the man in the post plans to bend the rules at all.
The rest of your comment is disappointing. You know that I didn’t mean that a customer can’t sexually assault a server or former server. I meant that if the server quits, they are not longer being sexualized as part of their job and unless people are fucking creeps, their former employment should continue to sexualize them.
Also well it is a regrettable career. That doesn’t mean you have to regret it. But it is certainly regrettable like any other career. And women like Mia Khalifa have expressed regret in the past and yet while she was expressing regret, porn videos of her were widely available and consumed. That is what I was talking about. Not that the career is always ending in regret.
But it is certainly regrettable like any other career.
Ok. So we’ve confirmed that it’s a career. I think taking on the concept of whether or not porn should be stored in a permanent medium is outside the scope of this conversation. It’s currently a valid career for men and women, and (assuming it’s all produced above board), there are plenty of systems in place to protect the people involved.
Hooters operates in a grey area. They obviously drive customers to their locations with sex appeal (though I actually like their wings personally), but there’s a fuzzy line around what is and is not okay in that scenario. Their own employee agreement has this to say:
My job duties require I wear the designated Hooters Girl uniform.
My job duties require that I interact with and entertain the customers.
The Hooters concept is based on female sex appeal and the work environment is one in which joking and entertaining conversations are commonplace.
Even the company won’t delineate what “joking” means. If a patron makes a “joke” that makes a server super uncomfortable what are her options? Confront the customer and lose her tip? Quit her job? That’s a lot of financial strain just to feel comfortable at your job. I don’t think Hooters as an establishment should be shut down, but I think bragging about ogling the women should be a little frowned upon.
The language in the post indicates that he’s clearly ashamed of what he’s doing. He’s misleading his wife and speaks in euphemism. So whatever he actually does there, he at least thinks other people will think it’s creepy.
I think leaving a review like this just demonstrates a lack of problem solving skills or some sexual repression which is kind of sad. There are other, better ways to get your rocks off than Hooters if that’s really all you’re there for.
I think it is rather questionable to express that any of the real world practices of the porn industry is “outside the scope” when judging the real world practices of hooters. I think it is shameful that hooters doesn’t have very clear guidelines. I think it is shameful to make “jokes” that could make someone uncomfortable in such a dynamic. And okay, the man is probably lying to his wife and speaks in vague terms. He probably wants to look at the servers, but does he do more? That is your assumption. Understandable one but an assumption. So let’s grant that he makes weird jokes to the servers. Is he really less of a creep when he would watching Mia Khalifa porn? Of course, as Mia probably wouldn’t know that he specifically is watching, he would cause less harm in a sense, but the question is not harm reduction but being a creep.
I don’t know what to think about this.
While I don’t intend to visit hooter, strip clubs or anything alike and I think people can be creeps even if they are acting completely within the consent of others.
But how is a man who wants to go to hooters a creep but a man who wants to consumes porn not? The exploitation of women in porn is arguably worse because while they consent to the recording (i mean if not… I don’t need to continue my point) oftentimes they sell all their rights and lose all control over the recording. Consequently there is no backing out if they no longer want to be seen like that. (Of course, there are other issues) If you work for hooters, you know wtf is going on before you were hired and if you quit, you are not longer exposed.
So what is creepy about hooters but not about porn?
Is it the simple fact that the man seeks out some kind of sexualized interact with the woman?
In general the difference is the in person interaction. While porn does have some direction interaction it is remote and there is far less direct control by the consumer.
So it is less creepy to engage with porn than hooters while porn is arguably far more exploitative and dehumanising than hooters because the creep is interacting with the woman?
I really don’t know if I agree there and again, I think very poorly of hooters and their customers, I am not defending it.
Being exploitative and dehumanizing isn’t the same kind of thing as being creepy, although they can be intertwined.
I guess my question would be creepy in perception or creepy in behavior?
Perception? sure, fine. Behavior? I think sexually dehumanising behavior would be what we would call creepy.
But I think a call to action (what the original comment was) to not be perceived as a creep… idk.
ch00f’s reply to you gives a better explanation than I had typed up, but exactly what I’m describing.
Thanks, I enjoyed explore the topic with you. Ch00f is doing a good job that expressing their thoughts. I am not convinced but I respect their effort and skill.
The power dynamic between the porn actress and customer is different than between restaurant server and patron. The porn is filmed in a controlled environment, and even the live streams can be quit at any time. At a restaurant, the women are operating in a live environment, and their income is dependent on the patrons’ whims. The rules are fuzzy and you don’t know if your patron is going to understand the difference between friendly flirting and sexual attraction.
I got dragged to a strip club for a friend’s birthday. They were especially gross at the time in WA because you couldn’t drink at them. We were already drunk enough though.
Anyway, got a lap dance for $20. The first 30 seconds were the stripper explaining to me what I’m allowed to do. I.e. apparently you can rub your face on her boobs, but hands stay put. I’m sure if I broke that rule, a bouncer would beat the shit out of me. To maintain the “family friendly atmosphere,” restaurants like Hooters operate more on nuance that some patrons (like the person this post is about) may not understand.
Controlled by whom? For whose benefit?
This bit, on which a lot of the argument hinges, seems rather rose-tinted. An alarming number of women report being coerced into doing more than they agreed to, once on set.
Yes there is a difference.
A customer of porn could share that porn long after that actress quit the industry and has publicly expressed regret.
A customer of hooters can’t force the server to continue to be sexualized at hooters.
But let’s focus on your example,
A customer could break rules at hooters, therefore consume porn and don’t go to hooters?
Ask a victim of sexual assault how they feel about that statement.
And the point is if your goal of going to hooters is to bend the rules as far as you can, just get your fix some other way.
Edit: also, it’s a little belittling to assume that working in porn is a regrettable career.
I don’t see how you conclude that e.g. the man in the post plans to bend the rules at all.
The rest of your comment is disappointing. You know that I didn’t mean that a customer can’t sexually assault a server or former server. I meant that if the server quits, they are not longer being sexualized as part of their job and unless people are fucking creeps, their former employment should continue to sexualize them.
Also well it is a regrettable career. That doesn’t mean you have to regret it. But it is certainly regrettable like any other career. And women like Mia Khalifa have expressed regret in the past and yet while she was expressing regret, porn videos of her were widely available and consumed. That is what I was talking about. Not that the career is always ending in regret.
Ok. So we’ve confirmed that it’s a career. I think taking on the concept of whether or not porn should be stored in a permanent medium is outside the scope of this conversation. It’s currently a valid career for men and women, and (assuming it’s all produced above board), there are plenty of systems in place to protect the people involved.
Hooters operates in a grey area. They obviously drive customers to their locations with sex appeal (though I actually like their wings personally), but there’s a fuzzy line around what is and is not okay in that scenario. Their own employee agreement has this to say:
Even the company won’t delineate what “joking” means. If a patron makes a “joke” that makes a server super uncomfortable what are her options? Confront the customer and lose her tip? Quit her job? That’s a lot of financial strain just to feel comfortable at your job. I don’t think Hooters as an establishment should be shut down, but I think bragging about ogling the women should be a little frowned upon.
The language in the post indicates that he’s clearly ashamed of what he’s doing. He’s misleading his wife and speaks in euphemism. So whatever he actually does there, he at least thinks other people will think it’s creepy.
I think leaving a review like this just demonstrates a lack of problem solving skills or some sexual repression which is kind of sad. There are other, better ways to get your rocks off than Hooters if that’s really all you’re there for.
I think it is rather questionable to express that any of the real world practices of the porn industry is “outside the scope” when judging the real world practices of hooters. I think it is shameful that hooters doesn’t have very clear guidelines. I think it is shameful to make “jokes” that could make someone uncomfortable in such a dynamic. And okay, the man is probably lying to his wife and speaks in vague terms. He probably wants to look at the servers, but does he do more? That is your assumption. Understandable one but an assumption. So let’s grant that he makes weird jokes to the servers. Is he really less of a creep when he would watching Mia Khalifa porn? Of course, as Mia probably wouldn’t know that he specifically is watching, he would cause less harm in a sense, but the question is not harm reduction but being a creep.
Any upstanding pervert can come up with a strip club but it takes a special kind of repressed creepiness to come up with Hooters if you ask me.
I would agree with you on that notion, while i think strip clubs are weird as fuck, but then we talk about personality and not behavior.
The original comment is a call to action, it is about behavior and not personality.