an afterlife that punishes nonbelievers who do good
Here’s a fun fact: that one is not in there. The Bible is consistent on that, at least. Death is death, but those who who are judged to be “righteous” will be given eternal life in a newly crafted reality. Everyone else goes back to dead.
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
None of the things you just shared refer to the pagan concept of an afterlife. Read them again in the context of what I wrote. What the Christian scripture says — very clearly — is in line with Pharisaic Judaism. You die, there is a resurrection for judgement, and the unrighteous are destroyed while the righteous are “saved” from death and given another, “perfect” life.
It’s especially telling that you used a translation that literally has the word “hell” in it, which is a deliberate mistranslation. The word in question there is “gehenna” which carries a very specific meaning that does not, in any way, infer an afterlife. In fact, the unrighteous are repeatedly equated with trash, which is disposed of by burning. Destruction is final and eternal. The idea of the afterlife as a literal place was lifted from Hellenism as Rome gradually assimilated Christianity into it’s existing religious frameworks.
Your claims lack links to supporting references.
At least I provide them & link to multiple distinct passages that all seem to converge to the same conclusion.
As for the translation, we’re not about to learn ancient Hebrew, Aramaic, & Greek to refer to the earliest texts.
This is where linking to a more faithful translation would come in if you can do that.
refer to the pagan concept of an afterlife
Not pagan: the Torah refers to Sheol as either (1) a metaphor for grave or (2) a bleak netherworld where all the dead reside (comparable to Hades).
The Tanakh (Daniel 12:2) mentions a general resurrection & afterlife.
This made its way into the Old Testament.
The Pharisaic school, which became Rabbinic Judaism, claimed to keep an explanatory Oral Torah for the written Torah, which they eventually codified as the Talmud.
This started with the 2nd Temple period before & concurrent with early Christianity, thus influencing its scriptures.
The Talmud refers to an afterlife in terms of Sheol, Olam Ha-Ba, Gehinnom:
Olam Ha-Ba: a place of reward for the righteous
Gehinnom: a cursed valley identified in the Torah that also refers to a place of 12-month punishment/purification for the impure before they may proceed to Olam Ha-Ba. (The utterly wicked may not proceed.)
Cultures evolve & acquire ideas from exposure to other cultures.
Their traditions & mythological texts are no exception.
Judaism & early Christianity likely adopted ideas of duality of good & evil, free will, resurrection, an afterlife, divine justice from contacting cultures.[1]
in line with Pharisaic Judaism
The word in question there is “gehenna” which carries a very specific meaning that does not, in any way, infer an afterlife.
They claimed the contrary: see earlier mention of Gehinnom (the Hebrew name for Gehenna).
Persia: the oldest passages of the Zoroastrian Avesta (the Gathas is thought to have existed before 1000 BCE) introduce a cosmic duality between asha (roughly good) & druj (roughly evil), free will, & personal accountability resulting in a duality of rewards in the afterlife: the house of Song or best of existences rewards asha whereas the house of Lie (described as a place of prolonged darkness, foul food, woe) rewards druj.
The Tanakh refers to ancient Egypt & evidently admires Cyrus the Great (of Persia) by designating him a messiah for the return of Jews to Zion and building of the 2nd Temple.
Christianity features the Biblical Magi (the term for Zoroastrian or Persian priests). ↩︎
While James pointed out that if your behavior doesn’t reflect belief, then you don’t actually believe. The point is that being showy doesn’t score you points, living by the principles — because you believe they are right — is all that matters.
Judaism has a concept for the Righteous Gentile. You don’t have to believe in their god, if you live by the Noachide moral precepts, even unintentionally, then you are righteous.
Here’s a fun fact: that one is not in there. The Bible is consistent on that, at least. Death is death, but those who who are judged to be “righteous” will be given eternal life in a newly crafted reality. Everyone else goes back to dead.
Yep, the wages of sin being death. Not hell, not punishment, sinners merely remain dead.
I checked before writing the last comment, and it’s mentioned a few times. Nonbelievers are punished in the afterlife.
Revelation 21:8
Only “born-again”/baptized enter heaven
John 3:3–5
and believers should not perish, but get everlasting life.
John 3:14–16
As for those who do perish, that happens in hell.
Matthew 10:28
Nonbelievers are denied entry.
Matthew 10:33
This all appears in the New Testament.
The older, Jewish scriptures don’t mention hell. However, Deuteronomy 13 is all about Moses instructing the Israelites to murder heretics. Moral bankruptcy.
None of the things you just shared refer to the pagan concept of an afterlife. Read them again in the context of what I wrote. What the Christian scripture says — very clearly — is in line with Pharisaic Judaism. You die, there is a resurrection for judgement, and the unrighteous are destroyed while the righteous are “saved” from death and given another, “perfect” life.
It’s especially telling that you used a translation that literally has the word “hell” in it, which is a deliberate mistranslation. The word in question there is “gehenna” which carries a very specific meaning that does not, in any way, infer an afterlife. In fact, the unrighteous are repeatedly equated with trash, which is disposed of by burning. Destruction is final and eternal. The idea of the afterlife as a literal place was lifted from Hellenism as Rome gradually assimilated Christianity into it’s existing religious frameworks.
Your claims lack links to supporting references. At least I provide them & link to multiple distinct passages that all seem to converge to the same conclusion. As for the translation, we’re not about to learn ancient Hebrew, Aramaic, & Greek to refer to the earliest texts. This is where linking to a more faithful translation would come in if you can do that.
Not pagan: the Torah refers to Sheol as either (1) a metaphor for grave or (2) a bleak netherworld where all the dead reside (comparable to Hades). The Tanakh (Daniel 12:2) mentions a general resurrection & afterlife. This made its way into the Old Testament.
The Pharisaic school, which became Rabbinic Judaism, claimed to keep an explanatory Oral Torah for the written Torah, which they eventually codified as the Talmud. This started with the 2nd Temple period before & concurrent with early Christianity, thus influencing its scriptures. The Talmud refers to an afterlife in terms of Sheol, Olam Ha-Ba, Gehinnom:
Cultures evolve & acquire ideas from exposure to other cultures. Their traditions & mythological texts are no exception. Judaism & early Christianity likely adopted ideas of duality of good & evil, free will, resurrection, an afterlife, divine justice from contacting cultures.[1]
They claimed the contrary: see earlier mention of Gehinnom (the Hebrew name for Gehenna).
In all translations, the famous passage in Matthew about sorting the sheep & goats to different sides specifically mentions eternal punishment for those who don’t get eternal life. Moreover, resurrection is a life after death, ie, an afterlife. None of this is consistent with lack of punishment.
As I wrote before, the Bible is inconsistent, so even the Bible you claim is mistranslated indicates you’re right about the absence of an afterlife & the absence of hell. They both do & don’t exist!
We’re both right. We’re both wrong. Welcome to inconsistency: you can read absolutely anything into the Bible.
Mediterranean & Near East cultures in regular contact were likely exposed to ideas from
The Tanakh refers to ancient Egypt & evidently admires Cyrus the Great (of Persia) by designating him a messiah for the return of Jews to Zion and building of the 2nd Temple. Christianity features the Biblical Magi (the term for Zoroastrian or Persian priests). ↩︎
Now this is a properly nuanced take.
Former evangelical fundamentalist raised in this stuff. Just curious, don’t answer if you don’t want to, what’s your background?
Also, if you have the time and energy:
What are your thoughts on modern day efforts to breed red heifers/resume sacrifices?
Connections between the US evangelical right and fundamentalist judaism?
Mike Johnson scares the fuck out of me, how dangerous do you think he is?
So the righteous are given another life after death, but it’s not an afterlife? So glad I can just semantics myself some salvation.
To which non-existent god do I pray for people to learn the difference between its and it’s?
Maybe Thoth or Hermes. Odin discovered the Runes, so a case could also be made for him.
If you pray to any of them, be sure your patron deity Momus doesn’t find out.
Touché
😘
But only believers can be “righteous”:
While James pointed out that if your behavior doesn’t reflect belief, then you don’t actually believe. The point is that being showy doesn’t score you points, living by the principles — because you believe they are right — is all that matters.
Judaism has a concept for the Righteous Gentile. You don’t have to believe in their god, if you live by the Noachide moral precepts, even unintentionally, then you are righteous.