They do not. I’ve kept several old ICEs running for years with barely any significant ICE-related costs (I STILL haven’t replaced a single timing chain, turbo, or injector, but obviously I’ve done oil changes and timing belts). Maybe 1k for maintenance and repairs per year if I’m unlucky and get a lemon. Oh and I gravitate towards aging German executive and luxury cars lol
But the battery on an Audi E-Tron is something like 60 or 70 grand. 20k used. The cars are under 30k now and they’re not even out of warranty yet. Nobody’s going to be replacing any of those batteries out of warranty, all those cars will be landfill.
In comparison, if we’re doing used parts, 20k gets you a lightly used engine AND modern 8-speed auto transmission AND a professional to fit them and for some models you still have enough left over to spend 10k on cocaine and hookers.
The Audi is at the far high end of that cost. Not surprising for the German brand. Hyundai IONIQ 5 (one of the most popular EVs outside of Tesla) are closer to $10k. Even the Volkswagen ID.4 is looking closer to $25k.
Count up literally everything. Oil changes. New spark plugs. Coolant flushes. Transmission flushes. EVs using regen braking tend to put less wear on the brakes, and hybrids were already looking at brakes being on there for the life of the car, so add brake changes, too. Even if you do your own work, you should be counting a reasonable hourly rate in there for your time. A huge amount of maintenance just plain goes away with EVs.
If you don’t believe me, find a PDF of an owner’s manual for the the recommended maintenance schedule on an EV and compare it to ICE. Dealerships are doing that, and they do not like the results at all. Takes a whole lot business away from them. In fact, some of the stuff listed almost feels like it was stuck in there just so dealers would have something for their mechanics to do.
The maintenance schedule on my bz4x wants to bring it in every 5000 miles to check that all the nuts are torqued down and the tires haven’t fallen off.
Add on to that EV batteries in real use are lasting a lot longer than expected. This is maybe not surprising. Lab testing is done by charging and discharging many times sequentially and extrapolating those results. If anything, that’s much harsher than real world conditions.
All that, even over 10 or 20 years, is still less than a single battery. And the battery is an unexpected one time cost when the stuff you mentioned is mostly expected.
I base my ICE maintenance and repair cost expectations off Audi, BMW and Mercedes, why would I look at Hyundai or VW for EV repair costs?
And the battery is an unexpected one time cost when the stuff you mentioned is mostly expected.
Nope, not how it works at all. It doesn’t just stop working. It slowly loses its top end power over time. In fact, when you pull it, it’s still good for other things like home power storage.
For early EVs, where the battery life is “relatively short” (think 100K miles), yes. But ICE engine life up until about the late 80s was around that, too. Now it’s more like 200K miles before a major engine repair costs more than it’s worth doing. EV batteries are getting to around the same 200K mile threshold, and while the battery replacement will be expensive, it’ll be the same “not wortht the cost, time to buy a new car” that a comparable ICE car would be.
Thanks for that diagram of shot zones on planes that returned to the bunker. Got an argument to make? Are you suggesting that my friends would cease to be my friends if their head gaskets blew? I don’t get the relation. Since I have an equally good chance of meeting someone with a Subaru that has a good head gasket vs a bad one, I don’t see any selection bias. What I’m suggesting is that there is selection bias on the internet. No one makes a post about how well their Subarus head gaskets are working— they only post on the internet when there is a problem.
Mhmm, because no one gets rid of cars because they’re too expensive to repair and everyone feels the need to mention to you all the repairs their car had before they got it.
Idk what to tell you, they are all still driving their Subarus after many years. Some of them WRXs. I like cars, so when someone has a Subaru, I do ask them about any problems they have had because I’m curious. So far, no head gasket failures. Maybe some of them had cars that previously had head gasket failures and were repaired before they purchased the vehicles. That’s not so likely, as folks don’t tend to sell their vehicles after doing expensive mechanical work like a head gasket change. Plus, if they’re replacing a faulty head gasket for the exact same Subaru head gasket, why have the head gaskets in their cars not blown again? They’re just putting in the same shitty gasket design, right?
Anecdotally, I have a Baja. Replaced the head gaskets two years ago this past summer. Then past March, I thought the HGs failed again. Waited until summer, bought a cheap Outback to drive around in the meanwhile, then threw a canopy up (I don’t have a garage). Pulled the engine and discovered the threads in the aluminum block had failed for one of the head bolts. Drilled it out, threaded it, and popped a steel insert in (Time-Sert kit).
I’ve owned enough Subarus over the years to love the boxer engines. Won’t touch a transverse mounted engine, personally. They’re always a pain to work on. Having a bed available, small though it may be, fits my lifestyle perfectly. Until another mfg puts out a small “ute” EV, I’m gonna keep wrenching on the Baja for as long as I can.
We Baja people are a special kind of crazy, though, and are definitely a niche market. I’m not keeping my hopes up.
You should look into the specialist forums on the topic if you’d like to see the real(ish) numbers. The tldr is it’s around a 15-20% premature failure rate for certain engines from before 2002.
Brand reputations are built off those twenty year old events, and it was a problem for a decade. In Suburu’s case it was noticable precisely because it was reliable enough that the owners would keep it for twenty years and then say things like “ran like dream except for that one time…”
That’s great. I understand that the real premature failure rate is higher but only for certain engines. The idea that one could then go and apply it to all Subarus is what I’m talking about. We’re not talking about an old model of WRXs that had that problem, we’re talking about all Subarus.
Sorry about that. My Mazdaspeed3 has been running with no problems since 2013 despite all the concerns about VVT/timing chain problems and bad turbo seals you see all over the internet. Another Chevy of mine I once had was rife with problems even though I did all the proper maintenance.
New battery is cheap. Subaru headgaskets are not.
I’ve known plenty of people with Subarus and none have had head gasket issues. I think the problem is exaggerated because it’s memed.
It’s specific engines and they haven’t built those engines in a long time. I’d be more vary of their diesels splitting crankshafts.
In reality the eventual EV battery replacement cost is several times that of the head gasket job anyway.
EV battery replacements are one big cost in the future. The hundred little things to keep an ICE going over the years add up to a lot more than that.
They do not. I’ve kept several old ICEs running for years with barely any significant ICE-related costs (I STILL haven’t replaced a single timing chain, turbo, or injector, but obviously I’ve done oil changes and timing belts). Maybe 1k for maintenance and repairs per year if I’m unlucky and get a lemon. Oh and I gravitate towards aging German executive and luxury cars lol
But the battery on an Audi E-Tron is something like 60 or 70 grand. 20k used. The cars are under 30k now and they’re not even out of warranty yet. Nobody’s going to be replacing any of those batteries out of warranty, all those cars will be landfill.
In comparison, if we’re doing used parts, 20k gets you a lightly used engine AND modern 8-speed auto transmission AND a professional to fit them and for some models you still have enough left over to spend 10k on cocaine and hookers.
The Audi is at the far high end of that cost. Not surprising for the German brand. Hyundai IONIQ 5 (one of the most popular EVs outside of Tesla) are closer to $10k. Even the Volkswagen ID.4 is looking closer to $25k.
Count up literally everything. Oil changes. New spark plugs. Coolant flushes. Transmission flushes. EVs using regen braking tend to put less wear on the brakes, and hybrids were already looking at brakes being on there for the life of the car, so add brake changes, too. Even if you do your own work, you should be counting a reasonable hourly rate in there for your time. A huge amount of maintenance just plain goes away with EVs.
If you don’t believe me, find a PDF of an owner’s manual for the the recommended maintenance schedule on an EV and compare it to ICE. Dealerships are doing that, and they do not like the results at all. Takes a whole lot business away from them. In fact, some of the stuff listed almost feels like it was stuck in there just so dealers would have something for their mechanics to do.
The maintenance schedule on my bz4x wants to bring it in every 5000 miles to check that all the nuts are torqued down and the tires haven’t fallen off.
Add on to that EV batteries in real use are lasting a lot longer than expected. This is maybe not surprising. Lab testing is done by charging and discharging many times sequentially and extrapolating those results. If anything, that’s much harsher than real world conditions.
All that, even over 10 or 20 years, is still less than a single battery. And the battery is an unexpected one time cost when the stuff you mentioned is mostly expected.
I base my ICE maintenance and repair cost expectations off Audi, BMW and Mercedes, why would I look at Hyundai or VW for EV repair costs?
Nope, not how it works at all. It doesn’t just stop working. It slowly loses its top end power over time. In fact, when you pull it, it’s still good for other things like home power storage.
For early EVs, where the battery life is “relatively short” (think 100K miles), yes. But ICE engine life up until about the late 80s was around that, too. Now it’s more like 200K miles before a major engine repair costs more than it’s worth doing. EV batteries are getting to around the same 200K mile threshold, and while the battery replacement will be expensive, it’ll be the same “not wortht the cost, time to buy a new car” that a comparable ICE car would be.
Thanks for that diagram of shot zones on planes that returned to the bunker. Got an argument to make? Are you suggesting that my friends would cease to be my friends if their head gaskets blew? I don’t get the relation. Since I have an equally good chance of meeting someone with a Subaru that has a good head gasket vs a bad one, I don’t see any selection bias. What I’m suggesting is that there is selection bias on the internet. No one makes a post about how well their Subarus head gaskets are working— they only post on the internet when there is a problem.
I think his plane has chicken pox
Mhmm, because no one gets rid of cars because they’re too expensive to repair and everyone feels the need to mention to you all the repairs their car had before they got it.
Idk what to tell you, they are all still driving their Subarus after many years. Some of them WRXs. I like cars, so when someone has a Subaru, I do ask them about any problems they have had because I’m curious. So far, no head gasket failures. Maybe some of them had cars that previously had head gasket failures and were repaired before they purchased the vehicles. That’s not so likely, as folks don’t tend to sell their vehicles after doing expensive mechanical work like a head gasket change. Plus, if they’re replacing a faulty head gasket for the exact same Subaru head gasket, why have the head gaskets in their cars not blown again? They’re just putting in the same shitty gasket design, right?
Anecdotally, I have a Baja. Replaced the head gaskets two years ago this past summer. Then past March, I thought the HGs failed again. Waited until summer, bought a cheap Outback to drive around in the meanwhile, then threw a canopy up (I don’t have a garage). Pulled the engine and discovered the threads in the aluminum block had failed for one of the head bolts. Drilled it out, threaded it, and popped a steel insert in (Time-Sert kit).
I’ve owned enough Subarus over the years to love the boxer engines. Won’t touch a transverse mounted engine, personally. They’re always a pain to work on. Having a bed available, small though it may be, fits my lifestyle perfectly. Until another mfg puts out a small “ute” EV, I’m gonna keep wrenching on the Baja for as long as I can.
We Baja people are a special kind of crazy, though, and are definitely a niche market. I’m not keeping my hopes up.
You should look into the specialist forums on the topic if you’d like to see the real(ish) numbers. The tldr is it’s around a 15-20% premature failure rate for certain engines from before 2002.
Brand reputations are built off those twenty year old events, and it was a problem for a decade. In Suburu’s case it was noticable precisely because it was reliable enough that the owners would keep it for twenty years and then say things like “ran like dream except for that one time…”
That’s great. I understand that the real premature failure rate is higher but only for certain engines. The idea that one could then go and apply it to all Subarus is what I’m talking about. We’re not talking about an old model of WRXs that had that problem, we’re talking about all Subarus.
My Subaru spun a rod bearing, which is apparently also a well-known problem.
Sorry about that. My Mazdaspeed3 has been running with no problems since 2013 despite all the concerns about VVT/timing chain problems and bad turbo seals you see all over the internet. Another Chevy of mine I once had was rife with problems even though I did all the proper maintenance.