Given that, according to your comment history, you think “homosexuality is morally wrong”, I don’t think you’re going to find much sympathy here. On the whole, Lemmy has little patience for regressive ideology.
I’m a Christian! Did you know that the church in Ethiopia was started by a non-binary person? Gender and sexuality used to be very different social constructs in biblical times and modern views on gender and sexuality didn’t come around in full force until around 300 years ago.
It’s a real shame that the church in general tends to reject the LGBT community. Science has shown over and over again that sexual identity and gender identity are inherent parts of people, and it makes no sense to me how God can hate something that he designed.
He answered, “Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’?
Acts 8:27-28 NRSV
[27] So [Phillip] got up and went. Now there was an Ethiopian eunuch, a court official of the Candace, queen of the Ethiopians, in charge of her entire treasury. He had come to Jerusalem to worship [28] and was returning home; seated in his chariot, he was reading the prophet Isaiah.
Here’s a story about a eunuch returning home from Jerusalem. Eunuchs back then were seen as ‘between’ male and female. They were able to go between the men’s Chambers in the women’s Chambers freely, and so they were very useful in courts. Not all Eunuchs were in the courts though.
According to church tradition this very Eunuch founded the Ethiopian Church. And so it is very possible for non-binary people to be followers of Christ.
Of course we can’t fall into the pitfall of applying modern sexuality and gender theory on ancient cultures, as they have a very different set of social institutions.
Some theologians of years past have suggested that the passage which is alluded to in Genesis might have a different meaning.
Genesis 2:23 NRSV
[23] Then the man said, “This at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; this one shall be called Woman, for out of Man this one was taken.”
This taken in conjunction with the passage that you quoted, can be interpreted very differently. Woman was taken out of man, meaning that Man was once both male and female at the same time, and yet perfect as all of God’s creation was.
Jesus never explicitly condemns Eunuchs or other groups of gender non-conforming people. I would not take this passage to exclude everything else from the life giving blood shed for us on the cross
Eunuchs were men, though. They were castrated so were seen as less of a threat. I do not think we can compare eunuchs to non-binary/gender-non-conforming people of today.
Unfortunately, lately Christians have done nothing but fucking make their religious beliefs a concern to me so no. You are dead ass wrong. After having drinks thrown at me, guns pulled on me, being spat at, cussed out, followed around in my car, kicked out of dog parks, and up rooting my entire fucking life to move to a safer place: I’m not a Christian and your opinion concerns the fuck out of me.
I haven’t thrown a drink at you, pulled a gun, spat at you, cussed at you, followed you in your car or kick you out of a dog park. Nor have I done that to anyone. And I’ll condemn anyone I find doing it.
Perhaps not yours personally, but Christians’ in general sure do, because they’re always trying to shove their religious beliefs into governmental policy. People are dying right now because of the obviously Christian abortion ban in the US.
As a Christian, gtfo with homophobia. All people are made in Gods image and so to condemn the gay and transgender people is to condemn the Lord. Take one of the greatest commandments seriously: love thy neighbour.
One of the greatest commandments. But it’s not the greatest. The greatest is to love the LORD your God with all of your heart, soul, mind and strength. That means loving Him more than any human and not engaging in relationships that dishonour Him.
Everyone has sinned and yet is made in God’s image. No human is not made in God’s image. Does that mean that we shouldn’t have a definition of right and wrong? By no means!
Don’t care. If you cannot obey loving thy neighbour then you’re not a true Christian.
Loving your God means to love thy neighbour, that is what Jesus says. Quite literally citing from the motherfucking Bible:
"There is no commandment greater than these.”
If you wish to argue further with me, go first treat gay and transgender people with due respect as a true Christian should. If you cannot do that, then you are no longer a Christian.
According to the Bible, engaging in homosexual activity is dishonouring God.
I’m just saying what the Bible says.
Romans 1:26-27
For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.
Well I think any “Christian” that thinks that God judges people for being gay is a Devil worshipper. Hate is the domain of Satan, not a benevolent God. There is a word for a being that would make people a certain immutable way and then judge them harshly for it. That word is Evil. You fundamentally believe in an evil, demonic god.
You’re not a Christian. You’re a Devil worshipper. And you will burn in Hell for your sins.
Seeing people as a means to an end rather than an ends unto themselves. A basic lack of human empathy and respect for human dignity. Jesus was a brown socialist who hung out with queers, prostitutes, and social outcasts. That fact should inform any form of Christian ethics.
Serious question: is the morality of homosexuality actually brought into question in the old/new testaments, or is this one of those things where people have chosen to interpret some shit creatively? Seen quite a few of those creative takes, like the people claiming the “hot or cold” or “camel through the eye of the needle” bits are actually some obscure references to local conditions rather than actual moral lessons.
I encourage you to look it up for yourself. The English translations are pretty unequivocal, though there are those who insist they are miss-translated.
That insistence has not resulted in any of the major English translations choosing different wording.
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,
Romans 1:26-27
For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.
As for the “hot and cold”, that type of thing is up for interpretation, although I hold that hot water is good and so is cold water. I believe that’s what Jesus was referring to.
The “Camel through an eye of a needle” with the “eye of the needle” being a gate is a total myth made up by the rich to try and justify their greed. Jesus meant what we read it as today. For extra clarification, the original greek even refers to the word “needle” with different words, one is surgical, I believe the other one is fishing related. So it couldn’t be a place. Jesus meant what He said - it is easier for a camel to go through an eye of a needle than a rich person to get into heaven.
Given that, according to your comment history, you think “homosexuality is morally wrong”, I don’t think you’re going to find much sympathy here. On the whole, Lemmy has little patience for regressive ideology.
I was talking in terms of my religious beliefs. If you aren’t a Christian, my opinion doesn’t concern you.
I’m a Christian! Did you know that the church in Ethiopia was started by a non-binary person? Gender and sexuality used to be very different social constructs in biblical times and modern views on gender and sexuality didn’t come around in full force until around 300 years ago.
It’s a real shame that the church in general tends to reject the LGBT community. Science has shown over and over again that sexual identity and gender identity are inherent parts of people, and it makes no sense to me how God can hate something that he designed.
Source on the Ethiopian church?
Matthew 19:4-5
Gender did exist in biblical times
Acts 8:27-28 NRSV [27] So [Phillip] got up and went. Now there was an Ethiopian eunuch, a court official of the Candace, queen of the Ethiopians, in charge of her entire treasury. He had come to Jerusalem to worship [28] and was returning home; seated in his chariot, he was reading the prophet Isaiah.
Here’s a story about a eunuch returning home from Jerusalem. Eunuchs back then were seen as ‘between’ male and female. They were able to go between the men’s Chambers in the women’s Chambers freely, and so they were very useful in courts. Not all Eunuchs were in the courts though.
According to church tradition this very Eunuch founded the Ethiopian Church. And so it is very possible for non-binary people to be followers of Christ.
Of course we can’t fall into the pitfall of applying modern sexuality and gender theory on ancient cultures, as they have a very different set of social institutions.
Some theologians of years past have suggested that the passage which is alluded to in Genesis might have a different meaning.
Genesis 2:23 NRSV [23] Then the man said, “This at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; this one shall be called Woman, for out of Man this one was taken.”
This taken in conjunction with the passage that you quoted, can be interpreted very differently. Woman was taken out of man, meaning that Man was once both male and female at the same time, and yet perfect as all of God’s creation was.
Jesus never explicitly condemns Eunuchs or other groups of gender non-conforming people. I would not take this passage to exclude everything else from the life giving blood shed for us on the cross
Eunuchs were men, though. They were castrated so were seen as less of a threat. I do not think we can compare eunuchs to non-binary/gender-non-conforming people of today.
Unfortunately, lately Christians have done nothing but fucking make their religious beliefs a concern to me so no. You are dead ass wrong. After having drinks thrown at me, guns pulled on me, being spat at, cussed out, followed around in my car, kicked out of dog parks, and up rooting my entire fucking life to move to a safer place: I’m not a Christian and your opinion concerns the fuck out of me.
Why would my personal beliefs concern you?
I haven’t thrown a drink at you, pulled a gun, spat at you, cussed at you, followed you in your car or kick you out of a dog park. Nor have I done that to anyone. And I’ll condemn anyone I find doing it.
Same way you’ll condemn the gays yes?
So you hate religious people, why does anyone need to hear about it?
We aren’t going to generalise and putting words into peoples’ mouths. Correct your behaviour.
Feel free to report/ban me, I’m not correcting shit.
Perhaps not yours personally, but Christians’ in general sure do, because they’re always trying to shove their religious beliefs into governmental policy. People are dying right now because of the obviously Christian abortion ban in the US.
I disagree with a state enforcing religion
I’m glad, and I wish all Christians thought that way.
As a Christian, gtfo with homophobia. All people are made in Gods image and so to condemn the gay and transgender people is to condemn the Lord. Take one of the greatest commandments seriously: love thy neighbour.
One of the greatest commandments. But it’s not the greatest. The greatest is to love the LORD your God with all of your heart, soul, mind and strength. That means loving Him more than any human and not engaging in relationships that dishonour Him.
Everyone has sinned and yet is made in God’s image. No human is not made in God’s image. Does that mean that we shouldn’t have a definition of right and wrong? By no means!
I never said to hate your neighbour.
Don’t care. If you cannot obey loving thy neighbour then you’re not a true Christian.
Loving your God means to love thy neighbour, that is what Jesus says. Quite literally citing from the motherfucking Bible:
If you wish to argue further with me, go first treat gay and transgender people with due respect as a true Christian should. If you cannot do that, then you are no longer a Christian.
I never said we should not treat gay and transgender people with due respect.
Your idea of due respect is saying that being gay is dishonoring god?
According to the Bible, engaging in homosexual activity is dishonouring God.
I’m just saying what the Bible says.
Romans 1:26-27
The Bible says lots of things.
Should adulterers be put to death?
Well I think any “Christian” that thinks that God judges people for being gay is a Devil worshipper. Hate is the domain of Satan, not a benevolent God. There is a word for a being that would make people a certain immutable way and then judge them harshly for it. That word is Evil. You fundamentally believe in an evil, demonic god.
You’re not a Christian. You’re a Devil worshipper. And you will burn in Hell for your sins.
How do you define evil in that case? Lol.
Seeing people as a means to an end rather than an ends unto themselves. A basic lack of human empathy and respect for human dignity. Jesus was a brown socialist who hung out with queers, prostitutes, and social outcasts. That fact should inform any form of Christian ethics.
He kept telling them not to sin
He also made them gay.
Oh, and he made them in his image along with everyone else so god must be Pan.
God also made billionaires desire money. Doesn’t mean that them acting on their desires is right.
Greed is taught, not something you are born with.
Serious question: is the morality of homosexuality actually brought into question in the old/new testaments, or is this one of those things where people have chosen to interpret some shit creatively? Seen quite a few of those creative takes, like the people claiming the “hot or cold” or “camel through the eye of the needle” bits are actually some obscure references to local conditions rather than actual moral lessons.
I encourage you to look it up for yourself. The English translations are pretty unequivocal, though there are those who insist they are miss-translated.
That insistence has not resulted in any of the major English translations choosing different wording.
https://www.biblestudytools.com/topical-verses/bible-verses-about-homosexuality/
Is a good list.
Of course, none of that matters because gay people should have more rights than any book.
Damn those are some harsh passages. Definitely not creative interpretation on that one.
Bible is pretty clear.
1 Corinthians 6:9
Romans 1:26-27
As for the “hot and cold”, that type of thing is up for interpretation, although I hold that hot water is good and so is cold water. I believe that’s what Jesus was referring to.
The “Camel through an eye of a needle” with the “eye of the needle” being a gate is a total myth made up by the rich to try and justify their greed. Jesus meant what we read it as today. For extra clarification, the original greek even refers to the word “needle” with different words, one is surgical, I believe the other one is fishing related. So it couldn’t be a place. Jesus meant what He said - it is easier for a camel to go through an eye of a needle than a rich person to get into heaven.
Exactly. The bible is clear, and it is clearly unjust.
Therefore those who follow what it says are spreading injustice through the world and must be stopped.
wow what a hateful book