There is one type of person who looks at a fucked up situation in the world, and things “Who can I talk about who is responsible?” They often pick the biggest, or most recent or relevant target.
There’s another type of person who looks at a fucked up situation in the world, and thinks “Can I connect this to Joe Biden or Kamala Harris in some way?”
It really looks a lot to me here like you are doing the second of those things. You’re allowed to, sure, just like we’re allowed to tell you that it’s a weird thing to do.
I have no particular personal animosity towards Biden or Harris, except perhaps their handling of the 2024 campaign - and I put that way more on Biden than Harris. I do, however, think that Democrats need to accept that they lost to Trump twice now and start grappling with the question of how they failed so spectacularly. It’s easy to blame MAGA and voter apathy, but how does that lead to better outcomes in the future? What led to the sociological problems that gave rise to the far right in the first place? How did a populace that voted in the first black president suddenly become so racist and bigoted again? Maybe we can blame Republican disinformation, but I don’t see that going away any time soon. The question we have to ask is, what did Democrats do, or not do, that contributed or made things easier for the Republicans? That’s the important question, because it’s the one thing Democrats can actually do something about.
According to logicbomb, you’re misrepresenting Biden’s involvement with the student loan bill you’re talking about. Was the 2005 bill the one you were talking about? What was in it that you didn’t like and how was Biden responsible for that part of it?
Yes, it was the 2005 bill, and Biden was one of the few Democratic Senators to support and ultimately vote for the bill. He also was also one of the most powerful members of the Senate, not a follower being pulled along.
“Biden was one of the most powerful people who could have said no, who could have changed this. Instead he used his leadership role to limit the ability of other Democrats who had concerns and who wanted the bill softened,” said Melissa Jacoby, a law professor at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill specializing in bankruptcy.
Biden did make claims that it was a Republican bill that he tried to soften, but nothing in the story of the bill’s authorship or passage supported that. In fact, he was a champion of it’s passage from the start, and had been so twice before when it had been previously proposed. He also helped write a failed bill way back in 1978 that specifically disallowed bankruptcy for student loans.
Biden also received more campaign donations from the credit industry than any other Senator at the time, and his son Hunter was employed as a $100k/year “consultant” at MBNA.
Dude… I think you are literally just making this up (or repeating it from someone who made it up.)
I looked into the 2005 bankruptcy bill which they are arguing about in this clip. I couldn’t even find anything in it about student loans. I searched the text, and followed the links to read the article Mother Jones wrote about the issue. Nothing about student loans. The Wikipedia page does have a single sentence claiming that it impacted student loan formulas in some way, with a “citation needed.” Where in the text does it do that?
I have found some pages (one, two) that claim that the 2005 bankruptcy reform included making private student loan debt non-dischargeable. So maybe there is something to this argument? Like I said, I couldn’t find it in the actual text.
As far as I can tell, deciding whether student loans are dischargeable mostly roots back to a 1987 court case and has to do with having to prove certain elements in bankruptcy court. I don’t really know. But regardless, this whole bankruptcy bill had a huge impact on a wide variety of stuff, Biden didn’t create it or sponsor it. It does look like he went to bat for it, which was probably bad, but the student loan stuff was a tiny part if it even existed in the bill at all. (Which, maybe it did, I reached my limit for wanting to look into this.) And saying that he was “the Senator” who was most responsible for this thing is just weird, even if he supported it. Presumably, a lot of people supported it, including the authors of the legislation.
Also, micro-focusing on just whether student loan debt is dischargeable in bankruptcy, and saying that is the issue that is competitive with the issue of forgiving loans for the vast majority of people who are paying them who are not bankrupt, is super weird.
Also, you know what Biden is responsible for? In 2022, the DOJ released new guidance indicating that they would not oppose in bankruptcy court anyone who wanted it discharged and could prove that it would be a hardship otherwise.
I have reached a firm conclusion that you are twisting facts around to bad-mouth Biden on this issue.
I couldn’t even find anything in it about student loans.
See “Sec. 220. Nondischargeability of certain educational benefits and loans.” Also, the following is from the Wikipedia entry on BAPCPA.
BAPCPA amended § 523(a)(8) to broaden the types of educational (“student”) loans that cannot be discharged in bankruptcy absent proof of “undue hardship.” The nature of the lender is no longer relevant. Thus, even loans from “for-profit” or “non-governmental” entities are not dischargeable.
Also, you know what Biden is responsible for?
Yes I do, and I spoke to it in another thread. President Biden was a huge improvement over Senator Biden, and I give him full credit for that.
See “Sec. 220. Nondischargeability of certain educational benefits and loans.” Also, the following is from the Wikipedia entry on BAPCPA.
Got it. Where did he come out specifically in favor of this one specific provision?
President Biden was a huge improvement over Senator Biden, and I give him full credit for that.
Yeah, I’ll make sure not to go back in time to 2005 and elect him for anything back then. Back then, I didn’t support Democrats either, they were mostly shit with Al Gore as a rare exception. Now they’re getting significantly better, and you are casting this massive multi-decade net to try to find little individual things somewhere in the history that you can bring up and make this freakout about, and misrepresent.
Like I say, now that I understand the full scope better, it is impossible for me to see this any other way than just finding random bullshit to throw at Biden.
Got it. Where did he come out specifically in favor of this one specific provision?
Let me turn it around since the opposing claim is that he worked with Republicans to soften the bill. Where did he come out specifically against it? Finding clips of Biden back then is near impossible with all the results that come up from his presidency, and I honestly don’t care enough to keep digging.
Yeah, I’ll make sure not to go back in time to 2005 and elect him for anything back then.
Is he running for something now? I hope you are aware that we aren’t talking about a current or future Democratic candidate for anything.
Now they’re getting significantly better.
Biden was among the most conservative Democrats in congress. As president he was one of the furthest left office holders in the party. Biden got way better in the context of the Democrats. I don’t see Democrats as a group getting better at all, with rare exceptions that the establishment does everything they can manage to suppress. You Don’t Hate The Democrats Enough.
Let me turn it around since the opposing claim is that he worked with Republicans to soften the bill. Where did he come out specifically against it? Finding clips of Biden back then is near impossible with all the results that come up from his presidency, and I honestly don’t care enough to keep digging.
Okay so you have literally no idea whether he even ever expressed any specific approval for the part of the bill you’re blaming him for being more responsible for than any other US senator. He didn’t write it, he didn’t make that amendment, and he supported some other parts in debate. But you definitely know he’s most responsible. Out of everyone.
If you need more proof, they said Biden was most responsible, but he wasn’t. He didn’t propose the bill. He only tried to improve the bill, knowing that it would pass no matter what he did, and the things he changed did not do what they were talking about. That’s assuming they’re talking about the 2005 bill.
There is one type of person who looks at a fucked up situation in the world, and things “Who can I talk about who is responsible?” They often pick the biggest, or most recent or relevant target.
There’s another type of person who looks at a fucked up situation in the world, and thinks “Can I connect this to Joe Biden or Kamala Harris in some way?”
It really looks a lot to me here like you are doing the second of those things. You’re allowed to, sure, just like we’re allowed to tell you that it’s a weird thing to do.
Have I said anything that’s not true?
I have no particular personal animosity towards Biden or Harris, except perhaps their handling of the 2024 campaign - and I put that way more on Biden than Harris. I do, however, think that Democrats need to accept that they lost to Trump twice now and start grappling with the question of how they failed so spectacularly. It’s easy to blame MAGA and voter apathy, but how does that lead to better outcomes in the future? What led to the sociological problems that gave rise to the far right in the first place? How did a populace that voted in the first black president suddenly become so racist and bigoted again? Maybe we can blame Republican disinformation, but I don’t see that going away any time soon. The question we have to ask is, what did Democrats do, or not do, that contributed or made things easier for the Republicans? That’s the important question, because it’s the one thing Democrats can actually do something about.
According to logicbomb, you’re misrepresenting Biden’s involvement with the student loan bill you’re talking about. Was the 2005 bill the one you were talking about? What was in it that you didn’t like and how was Biden responsible for that part of it?
Yes, it was the 2005 bill, and Biden was one of the few Democratic Senators to support and ultimately vote for the bill. He also was also one of the most powerful members of the Senate, not a follower being pulled along.
Biden did make claims that it was a Republican bill that he tried to soften, but nothing in the story of the bill’s authorship or passage supported that. In fact, he was a champion of it’s passage from the start, and had been so twice before when it had been previously proposed. He also helped write a failed bill way back in 1978 that specifically disallowed bankruptcy for student loans.
Biden and Warren debating 2005 bill
Biden also received more campaign donations from the credit industry than any other Senator at the time, and his son Hunter was employed as a $100k/year “consultant” at MBNA.
Dude… I think you are literally just making this up (or repeating it from someone who made it up.)
I looked into the 2005 bankruptcy bill which they are arguing about in this clip. I couldn’t even find anything in it about student loans. I searched the text, and followed the links to read the article Mother Jones wrote about the issue. Nothing about student loans. The Wikipedia page does have a single sentence claiming that it impacted student loan formulas in some way, with a “citation needed.” Where in the text does it do that?
I have found some pages (one, two) that claim that the 2005 bankruptcy reform included making private student loan debt non-dischargeable. So maybe there is something to this argument? Like I said, I couldn’t find it in the actual text.
As far as I can tell, deciding whether student loans are dischargeable mostly roots back to a 1987 court case and has to do with having to prove certain elements in bankruptcy court. I don’t really know. But regardless, this whole bankruptcy bill had a huge impact on a wide variety of stuff, Biden didn’t create it or sponsor it. It does look like he went to bat for it, which was probably bad, but the student loan stuff was a tiny part if it even existed in the bill at all. (Which, maybe it did, I reached my limit for wanting to look into this.) And saying that he was “the Senator” who was most responsible for this thing is just weird, even if he supported it. Presumably, a lot of people supported it, including the authors of the legislation.
Also, micro-focusing on just whether student loan debt is dischargeable in bankruptcy, and saying that is the issue that is competitive with the issue of forgiving loans for the vast majority of people who are paying them who are not bankrupt, is super weird.
Also, you know what Biden is responsible for? In 2022, the DOJ released new guidance indicating that they would not oppose in bankruptcy court anyone who wanted it discharged and could prove that it would be a hardship otherwise.
I have reached a firm conclusion that you are twisting facts around to bad-mouth Biden on this issue.
See “Sec. 220. Nondischargeability of certain educational benefits and loans.” Also, the following is from the Wikipedia entry on BAPCPA.
Yes I do, and I spoke to it in another thread. President Biden was a huge improvement over Senator Biden, and I give him full credit for that.
Got it. Where did he come out specifically in favor of this one specific provision?
Yeah, I’ll make sure not to go back in time to 2005 and elect him for anything back then. Back then, I didn’t support Democrats either, they were mostly shit with Al Gore as a rare exception. Now they’re getting significantly better, and you are casting this massive multi-decade net to try to find little individual things somewhere in the history that you can bring up and make this freakout about, and misrepresent.
Like I say, now that I understand the full scope better, it is impossible for me to see this any other way than just finding random bullshit to throw at Biden.
Let me turn it around since the opposing claim is that he worked with Republicans to soften the bill. Where did he come out specifically against it? Finding clips of Biden back then is near impossible with all the results that come up from his presidency, and I honestly don’t care enough to keep digging.
Is he running for something now? I hope you are aware that we aren’t talking about a current or future Democratic candidate for anything.
Biden was among the most conservative Democrats in congress. As president he was one of the furthest left office holders in the party. Biden got way better in the context of the Democrats. I don’t see Democrats as a group getting better at all, with rare exceptions that the establishment does everything they can manage to suppress. You Don’t Hate The Democrats Enough.
Okay so you have literally no idea whether he even ever expressed any specific approval for the part of the bill you’re blaming him for being more responsible for than any other US senator. He didn’t write it, he didn’t make that amendment, and he supported some other parts in debate. But you definitely know he’s most responsible. Out of everyone.
Good to know.
If you need more proof, they said Biden was most responsible, but he wasn’t. He didn’t propose the bill. He only tried to improve the bill, knowing that it would pass no matter what he did, and the things he changed did not do what they were talking about. That’s assuming they’re talking about the 2005 bill.
This does not surprise me in the slightest to hear.