Since you seem to know a lot about it let me ask you a couple of things:

😅. I’ll try my best 😜.

Bazzite is immutable, right? I’m sure I saw that somewhere and Fedora Atomic is also immutable IIRC

It is correct that the contents of / is immutable at runtime aside from /var and /etc. However, note that a lot of folders like /home and /opt are actually found in /var in response. This is later ‘fixed’ with symlinks and whatnot. In effect, only the contents of /usr (aside from /usr/share) is off-limits (or ‘actual’^[1] immutable).

How does the config changes not get overwritten?

I believe my previous paragraph already answers this. But, to be even more elaborate, Fedora Atomic makes use of libostree (read: git for your OS). With this, only the pristine images are ‘swapped’ in-between updates (or rebases^[2]). Your changes to the system are found in /var, /etc and in so-called ‘layers’ only and are not swapped out. Some of these changes are kept track of^[3], but most of them reside in /var and will not be touched by libostree.

The whole point of an immutable distro is to prevent changes to files to ensure things keep working

Kinda. The important part is that changes are prevented for the sake of a functioning system. But the entire system doesn’t have to be locked down in order to achieve this. This does mean that it’s actually not that hard to break your system. Just rm -rf /etc and your system will probably fail to boot into the very next deployment. But, as Fedora Atomic keeps at least two deployments, you will still be able to access the previous deployment in which you tried to delete /etc. So you’re protected from accidental mishaps as long as you’ve got at least one working deployment. Thankfully, you can even pin working deployments with the ostree admin pin command. And…, just like that, the distro has basically become dummy-proof. I’m sure it’s still possible to break the system, but you’d actually have to try 😉.

So, in short, Fedora Atomic definitely intends to be a more robust system and succeeds. But, it does so while giving the user agency (and some responsibility).

How are packages installed?

I think everything of importance is mentioned in the docs. What is it exactly you want to know?

The docs you sent recommend flatpak, which while very good in theory still has a small fleet of apps available.

But that’s just the first of seven “package formats” listed in the docs 😜. The other six will assure that your remaining needs are fulfilled.

Also they suggest using distrobox among other things, that’s definitely not beginner friendly, although an interesting concept for an advanced user to have your main machine be an immutable host to any system you want.

This is obviously anecdotal, but Fedora Silverblue was the first distro that I used. I was a complete Linux newb. My coding background was also just a Python-course on Uni. But, somehow, in the very newbie-hostile environment back then (read: April 2022), I managed with Toolbx. So…, yeah…, I can’t relate. Sorry*. You might be absolutely correct. But, as I said, I don’t recognize this from my own experience. I wish I had a video-tutorial back then, though. Honestly, with the amount of hand-holding Bazzite and its docs provide, I believe a newbie should be absolutely fine.

1. It is even possible to overwrite this. Both in containerfile (requires creating own image) and on device (very hacky, not recommended).

2. Rebasing is the process by which a different image is selected to boot and run your system from. For example, with this, one can switch from Silverblue (GNOME) to Kinoite (KDE) without reinstallation. This can even be used to switch from a Fedora image to a Aurora/Bazzite/Bluefin/secureblue image.

3. These include the software you’ve installed through rpm-ostree (or soon dnf). We call these layered packages, based on the analogy that the packages aren’t part of the image but are magically tacked on without you noticing anything finicky. It’s quite magical. Besides that, any and all changes made to /etc are also kept track of. The former you can see by invoking rpm-ostree status, the latter by invoking ostree admin config-diff.

Isn’t Bazzite an immutable OS with very limited package availability outside of gaming?

Nope. It’s basically Fedora Atomic with a lot of special sauce to make onboarding as pleasant as possible. Especially if you want to use it for gaming; be it as a HTPC/console or on desktop. Thus, like Fedora Atomic, you’ve got access to many different package managers to get your needs covered. Heck, Bazzite and its uBlue siblings actually improve upon Fedora Atomic in this regard (at least by default). Refer to this entry in its documentation for the finer details.

but I’m not sure it would be a good experience for someone just getting into Linux, since most of the help he will get online

We’ve all been faulty of this (read: searching on the internet), but we should instead consolidate Bazzite’s documentation first. Only after it isn’t found there, should one consider going to their discussion platforms; be it their own forums or their Discord server. Searching on the internet is IMO a no-go, especially if one isn’t well-versed yet.

will direct him to edit config files which would get overwritten on update.

This doesn’t apply to Fedora Atomic. Perhaps you’re conflating this with SteamOS.

Yeah, it seems that they even acknowledge that Tor and Mullvad are better for extreme threat models.

"The only browsers that can provide sophisticated fingerprinting protection against advanced scripts are Tor Browser & Mullvad Browser.

If you have an extreme threat model (Ex. Political dissident, journalist, or if you are in some other kind of high risk situation), please use one of those browsers."

I suppose we’d have to commend them for being fair.

I’ll keep it relatively brief for fearing unwieldiness.

I’m really not a fan of the “we can’t do anything so let’s sit and wait until everything gets worse” philosophy.

I agree. I hope you’re not implying I’m stating otherwise.

but it was accepted because it was the best thing available at the time for the purpose

More like Red Hat pushed it as the new standard and the rest followed suit. Distro maintainers are pragmatic and reasonable people. They’ll more often than not go for the path of least resistance.

A clear cut example of this would be how most distros don’t opt for btrfs in combination with time shift or snapper for snapshot functionality. So clearly, they are not really trying to offer the best solution. Instead they just try to push a system that’s as easy as they come for them to maintain and act accordingly.

the community needed a standard

And we already had one: SysVinit. Don’t try to rewrite history.

I initially started writing a reply on the remaining text but noticed that my writings were continued to be misunderstood. Therefore, I decided to retract any further reply and will choose to stop engaging in this conversation. Thank you for the engagement. However, I would like to offer a small piece of advice as a fellow Lemmy user:

In future conversations, whether they are debates or discussions, please try to understand what the other person is saying. Avoid creating a straw man argument. If needed, ask for clarifications to ensure you fully grasp their point. If you continue to have difficulty understanding, consider alternative approaches to gain a better understanding.

I don’t know how this conversation deteriorated, but I’ll let it be. Thank you once more. For the record, I don’t think this conversation will be productive moving forward. You seem to be focused on your own points without trying to understand the other side, which is fine. You don’t have to try to understand me; I may not be important. However, the ideas I try to convey might be, and it’s more important to consider and understand those.

Anyhow, I wish you the best.

I think I better understand you now. Btw, I had changed my previous reply moments before I read your reply. My bad*.

I meant that I support this distro as long as it’s not immutable because I’m an opponent of immutability on the desktop. If they’re also making other kinds of systems, immutability may be beneficial there.

Have you been around since before the introduction of systemd? Systemd’s introduction was a lot more invasive and threatening to ‘traditional’ distros than immutables are today. Distros changed to systemd over night. Only Arch and Debian had communities that succeeded in establishing systemd-less derivatives. By contrast, the interest for immutability in existing distros (almost always) means a parallel distro is created with (at least initially) immutability tacked on.

So, please correct me if I’m wrong, but I feel as if you’re being too aggressive/overreactive considering how nonthreatening immutable desktops are to traditional distros.

Sometimes innovation change is bad or rushed (such as removal of X11 on Fedora).

Fixed that for you 😉.

Often only people with the newest hardware can benefit from it anyways.

Fair, but as unfortunate as it is, that’s basically a consequence of consumerism. I don’t like it, don’t get me wrong.

They don’t care about regular users making the products worse for them which is basically egoism.

I don’t think this applies to Linux overall. Fedora (and Red Hat by extension) have a vision that made them default to Wayland by default. So you’d be right to blame their policy. But this is nothing new for Fedora; they’re known to push bold changes. You might not like it or disagree with them. Fine. But is it important enough to hate them for it? Isn’t life too short for that?

There is a reason for proprietary products having legacy support after all.

Are you implying that doesn’t apply to Linux? I don’t understand. On an open system like Linux is, this doesn’t really seem to hold much weight. You can swap stuff around as you see fit.

They claim to have a lot of features.

What features are you referring to?

As I understand it, it’s basically trying to answer the following question: What if we could start over and use existing building blocks to make a simple yet complete system using the Linux kernel? All changes have been made in accordance to that basic premise. From replacing GNU in GNU/Linux with BSD, to choosing dinit over systemd as init system.

I hope they succeed (as long as it’s not immutable)

Are you one of those with a raging hateboner towards everything immutable? I ask this as I don’t see any reason to bring this up in the first place.

FWIW, I absolutely hope for it to succeed as well. Innovation (of any kind) pushes the industry forward. When people oppose innovation for whatever reason, it always reminds me of Henry Ford’s famous quote: “If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.”